6141524F4E200 wrote: They pretty much had the same plan. It worked for the Royals and not the Pirates.
The Royals made it to the World Series as a wild card team in 2014. They then made it again in 2015 as a division winner.
In 2014, the Royals had one more win over the Pirates in the regular season. In 2015, the Pirates had three more regular season wins.
I wouldn't use the term "luck" but things fell into place for the Royals. They improved every year from 2013-2015. They played great baseball in the playoffs. The Pirates still won more games from 2013-2016 than the Royals.
Both teams had good plans in place. The Pirates got beat. The Royals did not. I understand the results, but the plans were very similar. I wouldn't fault either plan from those years.
It's not a matter of "faulting" either plan.
But if you don't see the results of the Royals rebuild as FAR SUPERIOR to the results of the Pirates rebuild, then I'd say in your mind you've changed what defines success in baseball.
The goal is to win the World Series. The Royals made two and won one. The Pirates haven't come close to either.
If you're satisfied with that, I'm envious of you. I wish my expectations could be that low. Following the Pirates would be much more enjoyable like that.
I agree with you to an extent. But most experts agree that once teams get to the playoffs, the results are basically a coin flip.
Yordano Ventura ????
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Yordano Ventura ????
1D2F23233705262F2227282F4E0 wrote:
I agree with you to an extent. But most experts agree that once teams get to the playoffs, the results are basically a coin flip.
Which makes absolutely no sense, when some teams have to win the wildcard round first.
It's not a coin flip.
I agree with you to an extent. But most experts agree that once teams get to the playoffs, the results are basically a coin flip.
Which makes absolutely no sense, when some teams have to win the wildcard round first.
It's not a coin flip.
-
SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Yordano Ventura ????
Well yeah, clearly a WC team has another mile to walk. I think they're talking more about any given series/ WC game.
Yordano Ventura ????
I would suggest it was the same plan, and that it did work for both teams, and it was bad luck the Pirates didn't get results similar to the Royals - the Pirates revived at the same time the Cards were peaking and the Cubs were coming on strong (with a similar plan, aided by a much bigger budget). With those factors against them, they still had a shot.
And for wild card teams now, it may be two coin flips.
And for wild card teams now, it may be two coin flips.
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
Yordano Ventura ????
I hate when people say "you must be satisfied then".
The Pirates were close those three years. How many teams made the playoffs three years in a row? They were closer than more teams.
They lost. They might have had a tougher road, but that doesn't really matter. The plan was good those years. They just fell short.
Doesn't mean I am "satisfied" with the results, but doesn't mean the plan in place wasn't a good one. I want them to win the WS more than anything. As long as they keep making the playoffs, they will have a chance.
The Pirates were close those three years. How many teams made the playoffs three years in a row? They were closer than more teams.
They lost. They might have had a tougher road, but that doesn't really matter. The plan was good those years. They just fell short.
Doesn't mean I am "satisfied" with the results, but doesn't mean the plan in place wasn't a good one. I want them to win the WS more than anything. As long as they keep making the playoffs, they will have a chance.
-
Bobster21
Yordano Ventura ????
6B60686461607B3E384F766E676060216C600F0 wrote: They pretty much had the same plan. It worked for the Royals and not the Pirates.
The Royals made it to the World Series as a wild card team in 2014. They then made it again in 2015 as a division winner.
In 2014, the Royals had one more win over the Pirates in the regular season. In 2015, the Pirates had three more regular season wins.
I wouldn't use the term "luck" but things fell into place for the Royals. They improved every year from 2013-2015. They played great baseball in the playoffs. The Pirates still won more games from 2013-2016 than the Royals.
Both teams had good plans in place. The Pirates got beat. The Royals did not. I understand the results, but the plans were very similar. I wouldn't fault either plan from those years.
While the plans were similar, the execution was not. KC wanted to followup and improve a 2014 team that lost the WS. They kept the team intact but added FAs Morales, Rios, Volquez and Young. in midseason, they added Zobrist and Cueto. They raised their payroll by about 20 million, which moved them from 19th to 16th.
The Pirates didn't go to the WS but did have an outstanding 98 win season in 2015. Unlike KC, they chose not to upgrade the roster. They actually reduced their payroll by about 3 million, remaining 25th as they were the previous year. They didn't keep Happ or Walker. Letting Morton and Pedro go were no-brainers. But replacing them with Jaso and Niese/Vogelsong did not improve the team.
KC saw their plan was working and made a few upgrades to get to a higher level. The Pirates saw their plan was working but were unwilling to make moves to get to a higher level.
The Royals made it to the World Series as a wild card team in 2014. They then made it again in 2015 as a division winner.
In 2014, the Royals had one more win over the Pirates in the regular season. In 2015, the Pirates had three more regular season wins.
I wouldn't use the term "luck" but things fell into place for the Royals. They improved every year from 2013-2015. They played great baseball in the playoffs. The Pirates still won more games from 2013-2016 than the Royals.
Both teams had good plans in place. The Pirates got beat. The Royals did not. I understand the results, but the plans were very similar. I wouldn't fault either plan from those years.
While the plans were similar, the execution was not. KC wanted to followup and improve a 2014 team that lost the WS. They kept the team intact but added FAs Morales, Rios, Volquez and Young. in midseason, they added Zobrist and Cueto. They raised their payroll by about 20 million, which moved them from 19th to 16th.
The Pirates didn't go to the WS but did have an outstanding 98 win season in 2015. Unlike KC, they chose not to upgrade the roster. They actually reduced their payroll by about 3 million, remaining 25th as they were the previous year. They didn't keep Happ or Walker. Letting Morton and Pedro go were no-brainers. But replacing them with Jaso and Niese/Vogelsong did not improve the team.
KC saw their plan was working and made a few upgrades to get to a higher level. The Pirates saw their plan was working but were unwilling to make moves to get to a higher level.
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
Yordano Ventura ????
You can say they were "unwilling" as I say they "messed up". Big difference. The Pirates also improved 10 games from 2014 to 2015. How come no one brings up what they did from 2012 to 2015? Always bring up 2015 to 2016. The Royals lost 14 more games in 2016 than they did in 2015. Did they not try to build on their WS win?
2016 was just messed up. They thought they had better players in Jaso and Harrison (many here did too). Better pitchers in Niese and Vogelsong. They didn't. They weren't better. Then others had down years.
The Pirates made very good deadline trades too. They did it without giving up good prospects. Very similar plans. Not sure how people don't see that. The Royals actually give me more hope as I know this plan works.
2016 was just messed up. They thought they had better players in Jaso and Harrison (many here did too). Better pitchers in Niese and Vogelsong. They didn't. They weren't better. Then others had down years.
The Pirates made very good deadline trades too. They did it without giving up good prospects. Very similar plans. Not sure how people don't see that. The Royals actually give me more hope as I know this plan works.
-
Bobster21
Yordano Ventura ????
303B333F3A3B206563142D353C3B3B7A373B540 wrote: You can say they were "unwilling" as I say they "messed up". Big difference. The Pirates also improved 10 games from 2014 to 2015. How come no one brings up what they did from 2012 to 2015? Always bring up 2015 to 2016. The Royals lost 14 more games in 2016 than they did in 2015. Did they not try to build on their WS win?
2016 was just messed up. They thought they had better players in Jaso and Harrison (many here did too). Better pitchers in Niese and Vogelsong. They didn't. They weren't better. Then others had down years.
The Pirates made very good deadline trades too. They did it without giving up good prospects. Very similar plans. Not sure how people don't see that. The Royals actually give me more hope as I know this plan works.
The Pirates made great strides from 2012-2015. The plan was working! No argument there at all. Just as KC made great strides with a similar plan to get to the WS in 2014. The issue isn't whether the Pirates had a plan to improve team. The issue is why they failed to build on a 98 win team as KC built on a WS-losing team.
I would disagree that they just "messed up" this year. I don't believe anyone saw Niese, Vogelsong or Jaso as significant upgrades. These were marginal at best players. KC hardly broke the bank the next year but did raise a low payroll by 20 million by adding significant players to be a middle of the pack payroll team. The Pirates actually lowered an already low payroll and did not add significant players. I don't think it's "messing up" to add mediocre players and fail to get better performance out of them than anyone had a right to expect. It's just an "unwillingness" to raise payroll enough to add players who are expected to maintain high performance they've already demonstrated.
2016 was just messed up. They thought they had better players in Jaso and Harrison (many here did too). Better pitchers in Niese and Vogelsong. They didn't. They weren't better. Then others had down years.
The Pirates made very good deadline trades too. They did it without giving up good prospects. Very similar plans. Not sure how people don't see that. The Royals actually give me more hope as I know this plan works.
The Pirates made great strides from 2012-2015. The plan was working! No argument there at all. Just as KC made great strides with a similar plan to get to the WS in 2014. The issue isn't whether the Pirates had a plan to improve team. The issue is why they failed to build on a 98 win team as KC built on a WS-losing team.
I would disagree that they just "messed up" this year. I don't believe anyone saw Niese, Vogelsong or Jaso as significant upgrades. These were marginal at best players. KC hardly broke the bank the next year but did raise a low payroll by 20 million by adding significant players to be a middle of the pack payroll team. The Pirates actually lowered an already low payroll and did not add significant players. I don't think it's "messing up" to add mediocre players and fail to get better performance out of them than anyone had a right to expect. It's just an "unwillingness" to raise payroll enough to add players who are expected to maintain high performance they've already demonstrated.
Yordano Ventura ????
Tragic news today about Ventura. Killed in a car accident in the Dominican Republic. Andy Marte (big time prospect a few years ago for the Indians I believe...flamed out after a cup of coffee) was also killed today in a car accident in the DR (they were separate incidents).
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/1853 ... r-accident
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/1853 ... r-accident
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
Yordano Ventura ????
Very sad news. Another young pitcher/player killed in an accident.