5A707B4B7C6A6A66090 wrote: And then what?
Are there stipulations on how they spend that money? I'm not sure it would be hard for the Pirates, if compelled, to provide an accounting of money spent on baseball operations. Such as operating their facility in the Dominican and building out their analytics office.
If the players association would show any capability of assessing a situation with multiple variables, they would understand that 4/30 teams spending double the median and over a third of the league spending 100M and less on payroll is bad for free agents.
Do a 180M cap with a 120M floor. Complaining about the teams that are rebuilding is farcical, because out the other side of their mouths their probably praising teams like the Astros, Cubs and Nationals that when rebuilding, were underspending their market by over $100M per year.
A cap and a floor is a great idea!
What are the odds that the Pirates and the Yankees have the same ultimate interest here? In other words, the Pirates don't want the cap/floor either.
Players Assoc. Question Marlins and Bucs Revenue Money
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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rucker59@gmail.com
Players Assoc. Question Marlins and Bucs Revenue Money
6255435366414E494E6761200 wrote: I too hope something comes of the MLB Players Association interest in the management of salaries by the Pirates. As someone stated earlier or on another thread, Nutting is not going to change his method and philosophy of operating the ball club. 
Sure, we are a small market team operating in a sport where free agency is king. But what is stopping the Brewers, Royals and others from working all the angles to be more than just competitive??? No those teams have ownership who want to win and do all they can to make their teams competitive. I would give anything to see Tull or someone else buy the team who is a true fan of baseball...Someone who will bring back Pirate Pride and put a team on the field who claws and fights and take their lumps and wins! Beat'em Bucs
Cleveland, Royals, Reds, Brewers, Twins, SD, DBacks, basically every organization other than the Rays and the Pirates. The Pirates are exposed - They are not playing game at the same compative level as even their pier group. My guess is that's why the players are asking questions.
Sure, we are a small market team operating in a sport where free agency is king. But what is stopping the Brewers, Royals and others from working all the angles to be more than just competitive??? No those teams have ownership who want to win and do all they can to make their teams competitive. I would give anything to see Tull or someone else buy the team who is a true fan of baseball...Someone who will bring back Pirate Pride and put a team on the field who claws and fights and take their lumps and wins! Beat'em Bucs
Cleveland, Royals, Reds, Brewers, Twins, SD, DBacks, basically every organization other than the Rays and the Pirates. The Pirates are exposed - They are not playing game at the same compative level as even their pier group. My guess is that's why the players are asking questions.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Players Assoc. Question Marlins and Bucs Revenue Money
060D05090C0D165355221B030A0D0D4C010D620 wrote: And then what?
Are there stipulations on how they spend that money? I'm not sure it would be hard for the Pirates, if compelled, to provide an accounting of money spent on baseball operations. Such as operating their facility in the Dominican and building out their analytics office.
If the players association would show any capability of assessing a situation with multiple variables, they would understand that 4/30 teams spending double the median and over a third of the league spending 100M and less on payroll is bad for free agents.
Do a 180M cap with a 120M floor. Complaining about the teams that are rebuilding is farcical, because out the other side of their mouths their probably praising teams like the Astros, Cubs and Nationals that when rebuilding, were underspending their market by over $100M per year.
Fair enough, but the Pirates are not rebuilding. So neal has already blown a hole in your argument. Pirates are in it to compete this year. Maybe other than the Rays, competing teams don't have payroll under $100M.
Can't have it both ways (claim you're competing to quiet the fans; claim you're rebuilding to justify pocketing millions and millions and million of dollars).
Many teams make the playoffs with a payroll under $100 million. Arizona and the Brewers competed last year. Cleveland competed in 2016. The Pirates did from 2013-2015. Just to name a few...
Reading comp there Dog. I didn't say teams that made the playoffs. Some teams, including the Pirates, surprise. I specifically said teams that are intending to compete. I'm carefully using Neal's words.
And once the Pirates had a WS caliber team, what did the FO do with it prior to 2016??? Did the Pirates try to bring in top shelf players that gave them the best chance to win 100+ game? Cleveland did. Royals, Brewers they did.
If you want to defend this team in the face of almost unbelievable mismanagement (from a baseball standpoint), that's fine. But there are now enough years involved to suggest a very strong pattern. You can't defend 2018 without acknowledging that we're here BECAUSE of the very same behavior they're exercising right now.
So defend away, but tell me how this is at all different than the winter of 2016? Tell us what would have been the result if AJ walked into Neal's office prior to 2015 and asked to play for a FMV contract.
This is not an organization that you can point to and say "when they were truly competitive they were 'all in', but now they're rebuilding and they're sitting on the sidelines." Neal promised to be "all in" when the team was competitive. but he wasn't then either. I guess you're telling me that was all GM talk as well?
Are there stipulations on how they spend that money? I'm not sure it would be hard for the Pirates, if compelled, to provide an accounting of money spent on baseball operations. Such as operating their facility in the Dominican and building out their analytics office.
If the players association would show any capability of assessing a situation with multiple variables, they would understand that 4/30 teams spending double the median and over a third of the league spending 100M and less on payroll is bad for free agents.
Do a 180M cap with a 120M floor. Complaining about the teams that are rebuilding is farcical, because out the other side of their mouths their probably praising teams like the Astros, Cubs and Nationals that when rebuilding, were underspending their market by over $100M per year.
Fair enough, but the Pirates are not rebuilding. So neal has already blown a hole in your argument. Pirates are in it to compete this year. Maybe other than the Rays, competing teams don't have payroll under $100M.
Can't have it both ways (claim you're competing to quiet the fans; claim you're rebuilding to justify pocketing millions and millions and million of dollars).
Many teams make the playoffs with a payroll under $100 million. Arizona and the Brewers competed last year. Cleveland competed in 2016. The Pirates did from 2013-2015. Just to name a few...
Reading comp there Dog. I didn't say teams that made the playoffs. Some teams, including the Pirates, surprise. I specifically said teams that are intending to compete. I'm carefully using Neal's words.
And once the Pirates had a WS caliber team, what did the FO do with it prior to 2016??? Did the Pirates try to bring in top shelf players that gave them the best chance to win 100+ game? Cleveland did. Royals, Brewers they did.
If you want to defend this team in the face of almost unbelievable mismanagement (from a baseball standpoint), that's fine. But there are now enough years involved to suggest a very strong pattern. You can't defend 2018 without acknowledging that we're here BECAUSE of the very same behavior they're exercising right now.
So defend away, but tell me how this is at all different than the winter of 2016? Tell us what would have been the result if AJ walked into Neal's office prior to 2015 and asked to play for a FMV contract.
This is not an organization that you can point to and say "when they were truly competitive they were 'all in', but now they're rebuilding and they're sitting on the sidelines." Neal promised to be "all in" when the team was competitive. but he wasn't then either. I guess you're telling me that was all GM talk as well?
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rucker59@gmail.com
Players Assoc. Question Marlins and Bucs Revenue Money
6E534D404F454E6C4453424445210 wrote: And then what?
Are there stipulations on how they spend that money? I'm not sure it would be hard for the Pirates, if compelled, to provide an accounting of money spent on baseball operations. Such as operating their facility in the Dominican and building out their analytics office.
If the players association would show any capability of assessing a situation with multiple variables, they would understand that 4/30 teams spending double the median and over a third of the league spending 100M and less on payroll is bad for free agents.
Do a 180M cap with a 120M floor. Complaining about the teams that are rebuilding is farcical, because out the other side of their mouths their probably praising teams like the Astros, Cubs and Nationals that when rebuilding, were underspending their market by over $100M per year.
Fair enough, but the Pirates are not rebuilding. So neal has already blown a hole in your argument. Pirates are in it to compete this year. Maybe other than the Rays, competing teams don't have payroll under $100M.
Can't have it both ways (claim you're competing to quiet the fans; claim you're rebuilding to justify pocketing millions and millions and million of dollars).
In this case, the Pirates are on record to be competing. They just passed on a tremendous opportunity to say something of real significance to the fans. They could have broken the back of all the critics; they could have put a stop to the deteriorating relationship between this franchise and the fans (which is ultimately going to hurt the fans); they could have made the team legitimately better on paper and still had plently of money left over. They choose, once again, to do nothing.
Actually, they did just say something to us: it starts by raising either hand and delivering a certain salute....
So let me get this straight. It's ok for a team to deliberately depress payroll and tank for high draft picks, when they are open to the public about it?
Rightly, or wrongly, the Pirates didn't feel comfortable investing in this current core. Do you blame them? Cole has pitched like a middle rotation guy outside of 2015. McCutchen is no longer an MVP candidate, Marte and Polanco do anything but instill confidence and Meadows and Glasnow do not look capable of contributing much at the MLB level in 2018. I'm not happy they didn't go out on a limb and add a SS,3B and SP. But what if they had done that and the Pirates still only got marginal production from all those players named above?
They're kicking the can down the street, they need to know what exactly they have in Polanco and Marte, are these lineup anchors or not? Are Meadows and Glasnow busts, are Taillon and Bell stars or just above average regulars? Which is the true Nova, and will Kuhl and Williams solidify their spots in the rotation?
The Pirates never really got the farm system boom that teams like the Astros and Cubs got. They clearly need to do a better job understanding what they have in their prospects. In hindsight, they should have moved Meadows and Glasnow years ago to bolster the 2016 team. But they flubbed it and got infatuated with their own prospects. I hope there's a lesson learned there. I also hope they knew what they were doing in accepting that Cole package from the Astros.
I've no problem with truly rebuilding. But the Pirates have yet to blow this up, and their quotes are all to the intention of competing. So all I see right now is an organization that is almost incomprehensible.
But more - the problem with your defense is that the Pirates, in fact, DID NOT invest when the team was VERY competitive. I think it's safe to say there is not one person on this board that even considered the possibility, 2 years ago this time, that the Pirates would be the mess they are right now. But here we are. They did everything wrong when the team was right on the edge of greatness and they're doing the same thing now - nothing.
So the defense that "it's not fair to expect investment when the team is clearly rebuilding" (even when it's not actually doing anything) doesn't work when the team didn't invest when they were almost dominating.
Other than the Rays, can you point to an organization that had a team like the Pirates did going into 2016 that treated the team (and FANS) like the Pirates did and are doing?
Think about this - are you amazed at the intentionality the Brewers are exercising right now? Wouldn't you like the Pirates to be working a plan the way the Brewers are right now? The Pirates could have done the same thing the Brewers are doing THIS offseason. They're not competing now because the Pirates choose to not act. The Brewers are competing now because they chose to do so. The Pirates could be sitting where the Brewers are. But we're instead sitting in some never-never land.
Are there stipulations on how they spend that money? I'm not sure it would be hard for the Pirates, if compelled, to provide an accounting of money spent on baseball operations. Such as operating their facility in the Dominican and building out their analytics office.
If the players association would show any capability of assessing a situation with multiple variables, they would understand that 4/30 teams spending double the median and over a third of the league spending 100M and less on payroll is bad for free agents.
Do a 180M cap with a 120M floor. Complaining about the teams that are rebuilding is farcical, because out the other side of their mouths their probably praising teams like the Astros, Cubs and Nationals that when rebuilding, were underspending their market by over $100M per year.
Fair enough, but the Pirates are not rebuilding. So neal has already blown a hole in your argument. Pirates are in it to compete this year. Maybe other than the Rays, competing teams don't have payroll under $100M.
Can't have it both ways (claim you're competing to quiet the fans; claim you're rebuilding to justify pocketing millions and millions and million of dollars).
In this case, the Pirates are on record to be competing. They just passed on a tremendous opportunity to say something of real significance to the fans. They could have broken the back of all the critics; they could have put a stop to the deteriorating relationship between this franchise and the fans (which is ultimately going to hurt the fans); they could have made the team legitimately better on paper and still had plently of money left over. They choose, once again, to do nothing.
Actually, they did just say something to us: it starts by raising either hand and delivering a certain salute....
So let me get this straight. It's ok for a team to deliberately depress payroll and tank for high draft picks, when they are open to the public about it?
Rightly, or wrongly, the Pirates didn't feel comfortable investing in this current core. Do you blame them? Cole has pitched like a middle rotation guy outside of 2015. McCutchen is no longer an MVP candidate, Marte and Polanco do anything but instill confidence and Meadows and Glasnow do not look capable of contributing much at the MLB level in 2018. I'm not happy they didn't go out on a limb and add a SS,3B and SP. But what if they had done that and the Pirates still only got marginal production from all those players named above?
They're kicking the can down the street, they need to know what exactly they have in Polanco and Marte, are these lineup anchors or not? Are Meadows and Glasnow busts, are Taillon and Bell stars or just above average regulars? Which is the true Nova, and will Kuhl and Williams solidify their spots in the rotation?
The Pirates never really got the farm system boom that teams like the Astros and Cubs got. They clearly need to do a better job understanding what they have in their prospects. In hindsight, they should have moved Meadows and Glasnow years ago to bolster the 2016 team. But they flubbed it and got infatuated with their own prospects. I hope there's a lesson learned there. I also hope they knew what they were doing in accepting that Cole package from the Astros.
I've no problem with truly rebuilding. But the Pirates have yet to blow this up, and their quotes are all to the intention of competing. So all I see right now is an organization that is almost incomprehensible.
But more - the problem with your defense is that the Pirates, in fact, DID NOT invest when the team was VERY competitive. I think it's safe to say there is not one person on this board that even considered the possibility, 2 years ago this time, that the Pirates would be the mess they are right now. But here we are. They did everything wrong when the team was right on the edge of greatness and they're doing the same thing now - nothing.
So the defense that "it's not fair to expect investment when the team is clearly rebuilding" (even when it's not actually doing anything) doesn't work when the team didn't invest when they were almost dominating.
Other than the Rays, can you point to an organization that had a team like the Pirates did going into 2016 that treated the team (and FANS) like the Pirates did and are doing?
Think about this - are you amazed at the intentionality the Brewers are exercising right now? Wouldn't you like the Pirates to be working a plan the way the Brewers are right now? The Pirates could have done the same thing the Brewers are doing THIS offseason. They're not competing now because the Pirates choose to not act. The Brewers are competing now because they chose to do so. The Pirates could be sitting where the Brewers are. But we're instead sitting in some never-never land.
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Bobster21
Players Assoc. Question Marlins and Bucs Revenue Money
7C7B6D656B7C3B374E69636F6762206D61630E0 wrote: I think it's safe to say there is not one person on this board that even considered the possibility, 2 years ago this time, that the Pirates would be the mess they are right now. But here we are. They did everything wrong when the team was right on the edge of greatness and they're doing the same thing now - nothing.
THIS!!! And this is what is so upsetting about any plan to rebuild by the same people who got close and then thoroughly tanked the effort the last time by adding Jaso, Niese and Vogelsong instead of real players. Are we to believe that IF they can rebuild to where they were in 2015 that they will take a completely different approach the next year in order to enhance the team even tho it will likely cost more? Should we believe that IF they ever get that good again they would be willing to do what they have never been willing to do and move the payroll up toward the average range in order to add key pieces to a good team rather than filling holes with cheaper, less talented options? This is what concerns me because the excuse that "they did it before, they can do it again" suggests that they would "again" only go so far before reining in the effort rather than increasing payroll to even an average level. What "they did before" was make a limited effort that failed and then gave up. And now we're supposed to be excited that the same people are going to give it another go? Gosh. I can't wait. ::)
THIS!!! And this is what is so upsetting about any plan to rebuild by the same people who got close and then thoroughly tanked the effort the last time by adding Jaso, Niese and Vogelsong instead of real players. Are we to believe that IF they can rebuild to where they were in 2015 that they will take a completely different approach the next year in order to enhance the team even tho it will likely cost more? Should we believe that IF they ever get that good again they would be willing to do what they have never been willing to do and move the payroll up toward the average range in order to add key pieces to a good team rather than filling holes with cheaper, less talented options? This is what concerns me because the excuse that "they did it before, they can do it again" suggests that they would "again" only go so far before reining in the effort rather than increasing payroll to even an average level. What "they did before" was make a limited effort that failed and then gave up. And now we're supposed to be excited that the same people are going to give it another go? Gosh. I can't wait. ::)
Players Assoc. Question Marlins and Bucs Revenue Money
4A7769646B616A486077666061050 wrote: The time frame is until the find an impact player.
Cleveland was treading in no man's land until Lindor. The Cubs' rebuild was until they brought Bryant up and Houston just all at once ended up with multiple franchise position players.
Expect the Pirates to tread water until they land that McCutchen 2011-2015 talent that you can build a lineup around.
this could very well be correct. Maybe it is two or three impact players though.
this brings up the question, what impact player has been signed and developed since NH became GM?
Cleveland was treading in no man's land until Lindor. The Cubs' rebuild was until they brought Bryant up and Houston just all at once ended up with multiple franchise position players.
Expect the Pirates to tread water until they land that McCutchen 2011-2015 talent that you can build a lineup around.
this could very well be correct. Maybe it is two or three impact players though.
this brings up the question, what impact player has been signed and developed since NH became GM?
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rucker59@gmail.com
Players Assoc. Question Marlins and Bucs Revenue Money
755855444352450506370 wrote: I think it's safe to say there is not one person on this board that even considered the possibility, 2 years ago this time, that the Pirates would be the mess they are right now. But here we are. They did everything wrong when the team was right on the edge of greatness and they're doing the same thing now - nothing.
THIS!!! And this is what is so upsetting about any plan to rebuild by the same people who got close and then thoroughly tanked the effort the last time by adding Jaso, Niese and Vogelsong instead of real players. Are we to believe that IF they can rebuild to where they were in 2015 that they will take a completely different approach the next year in order to enhance the team even tho it will likely cost more? Should we believe that IF they ever get that good again they would be willing to do what they have never been willing to do and move the payroll up toward the average range in order to add key pieces to a good team rather than filling holes with cheaper, less talented options? This is what concerns me because the excuse that "they did it before, they can do it again" suggests that they would "again" only go so far before reining in the effort rather than increasing payroll to even an average level. What "they did before" was make a limited effort that failed and then gave up. And now we're supposed to be excited that the same people are going to give it another go? Gosh. I can't wait. ::)
Right. A couple people want to give the FO a pass now because they are "sort of" acting the way a normal FO would act on any team that is rebuilding. Rather than this being a case where the Pirates are following industry stds, this is more like a broken clock that just happens to be "right" twice a day. The Pirates have done literally nothing to suggest they have or are or will function like any other competitive organization. To give them a pass for doing nothing now (because rebuilding teams don't invest in payroll) without acknowledging they did nothing in 2016 is simply wrong.
And this doesn't take into account that despite assurances by a few on this board that Neal is simply playing the "ol GM game" and doesn't really believe this team can compete, their assurances don't mean a lot when the FO is not managing the team like its a rebuild. Why is Marte, Polanco, Harrison, et al still on this roster if they're rebuilding. They're neither rebuilding not competing, they're treading water and that's the worse plan of all.
THIS!!! And this is what is so upsetting about any plan to rebuild by the same people who got close and then thoroughly tanked the effort the last time by adding Jaso, Niese and Vogelsong instead of real players. Are we to believe that IF they can rebuild to where they were in 2015 that they will take a completely different approach the next year in order to enhance the team even tho it will likely cost more? Should we believe that IF they ever get that good again they would be willing to do what they have never been willing to do and move the payroll up toward the average range in order to add key pieces to a good team rather than filling holes with cheaper, less talented options? This is what concerns me because the excuse that "they did it before, they can do it again" suggests that they would "again" only go so far before reining in the effort rather than increasing payroll to even an average level. What "they did before" was make a limited effort that failed and then gave up. And now we're supposed to be excited that the same people are going to give it another go? Gosh. I can't wait. ::)
Right. A couple people want to give the FO a pass now because they are "sort of" acting the way a normal FO would act on any team that is rebuilding. Rather than this being a case where the Pirates are following industry stds, this is more like a broken clock that just happens to be "right" twice a day. The Pirates have done literally nothing to suggest they have or are or will function like any other competitive organization. To give them a pass for doing nothing now (because rebuilding teams don't invest in payroll) without acknowledging they did nothing in 2016 is simply wrong.
And this doesn't take into account that despite assurances by a few on this board that Neal is simply playing the "ol GM game" and doesn't really believe this team can compete, their assurances don't mean a lot when the FO is not managing the team like its a rebuild. Why is Marte, Polanco, Harrison, et al still on this roster if they're rebuilding. They're neither rebuilding not competing, they're treading water and that's the worse plan of all.
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
Players Assoc. Question Marlins and Bucs Revenue Money
755352455343300 wrote: The time frame is until the find an impact player.
Cleveland was treading in no man's land until Lindor. The Cubs' rebuild was until they brought Bryant up and Houston just all at once ended up with multiple franchise position players.
Expect the Pirates to tread water until they land that McCutchen 2011-2015 talent that you can build a lineup around.
this could very well be correct. Maybe it is two or three impact players though.
this brings up the question, what impact player has been signed and developed since NH became GM?
none
Cleveland was treading in no man's land until Lindor. The Cubs' rebuild was until they brought Bryant up and Houston just all at once ended up with multiple franchise position players.
Expect the Pirates to tread water until they land that McCutchen 2011-2015 talent that you can build a lineup around.
this could very well be correct. Maybe it is two or three impact players though.
this brings up the question, what impact player has been signed and developed since NH became GM?
none
Players Assoc. Question Marlins and Bucs Revenue Money
2A323037372031362B2A3C590 wrote: The time frame is until the find an impact player.
Cleveland was treading in no man's land until Lindor. The Cubs' rebuild was until they brought Bryant up and Houston just all at once ended up with multiple franchise position players.
Expect the Pirates to tread water until they land that McCutchen 2011-2015 talent that you can build a lineup around.
this could very well be correct. Maybe it is two or three impact players though.
this brings up the question, what impact player has been signed and developed since NH became GM?
none
why was his contract renewed again?
Cleveland was treading in no man's land until Lindor. The Cubs' rebuild was until they brought Bryant up and Houston just all at once ended up with multiple franchise position players.
Expect the Pirates to tread water until they land that McCutchen 2011-2015 talent that you can build a lineup around.
this could very well be correct. Maybe it is two or three impact players though.
this brings up the question, what impact player has been signed and developed since NH became GM?
none
why was his contract renewed again?
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
Players Assoc. Question Marlins and Bucs Revenue Money
6E48495E48582B0 wrote: The time frame is until the find an impact player.
Cleveland was treading in no man's land until Lindor. The Cubs' rebuild was until they brought Bryant up and Houston just all at once ended up with multiple franchise position players.
Expect the Pirates to tread water until they land that McCutchen 2011-2015 talent that you can build a lineup around.
this could very well be correct. Maybe it is two or three impact players though.
this brings up the question, what impact player has been signed and developed since NH became GM?
none
why was his contract renewed again?
Great question, it's one of the great mistery's in MLB.
Cleveland was treading in no man's land until Lindor. The Cubs' rebuild was until they brought Bryant up and Houston just all at once ended up with multiple franchise position players.
Expect the Pirates to tread water until they land that McCutchen 2011-2015 talent that you can build a lineup around.
this could very well be correct. Maybe it is two or three impact players though.
this brings up the question, what impact player has been signed and developed since NH became GM?
none
why was his contract renewed again?
Great question, it's one of the great mistery's in MLB.