220F02131405125251600 wrote: I'm actually a bit bullish on the rotation. I was even before the Cole trade. Let's be honest...Cole has been a good, but not dominant, pitcher. to be sure, he has much higher upside than anyone currently in our rotation not named Taillon. But, as of yet, that upside has not been realized. I recall many times last year when people were ready to run him out of town. That's all a way of saying that I don't think his departure will hurt that much. I have no idea if 2018 Musgrove will outperform 2017 Cole, but I wouldn't say it's out of the realm of possibilities.
Thus, I think our rotation as it is currently structured can be ok and keep us in games. I don't think it will be great, and there is no true ace, but we haven't had one of those since when...Drabek? And I mean a guy who you knew every time he took the ball was going to give you a solid performance. 2013 Liriano was pretty close to ace level. 2015 Burnett and Cole were pretty good. And I'm not talking Kershaw level talent. Kershaw is a once in a generation type player. Very few teams are lucky enough to have a guy like him. But, you'd think over the last 25 years, we'd have a guy you could count on to be a perennial All-Star...a guy like Kluber, or Keuchel, or heck...Jon Lester. Maybe Taillon and/or Keller will become that guy.
Regardless, the point is this...Taillon, Kuhl, and Williams have all shown enough to warrant a longer look. Ditto for Musgrove. If Nova can eat innings and just go out there and bang strikes, I'll take my chances.
Ultimately, I don't think this team is very good. I'm sticking with 65-97. But, I have some reason to hope that 2019 could be interesting, hinging mostly on these guys maturing and developing, and Kingham, Glasnow, Brault, or Keller stepping into the rotation for Nova next year. Much of my prediction is based on playing in a competitive division. All things being equal, I think this is probably closer to a 75-78 win team. But, 19 games against each of the Cubs and Cards is going to hurt. At least we don't have to play the AL East this year...
I agree, and losing the Cole we had the last 2 years is hardly a big blow to the team.
I don't think it's coincidence or bad luck the Bucs haven't had a Drabek-like ace since Drabek. It's the MLB system. Arbitration kicks in after 4 years and free agency after 6. It usually takes pitchers several years to reach their ceiling. But the window for the Pirates is only until the pitcher is good enough to get a big payday in arbitration or in free agency. Even Kershaw was not a stud until year 4. Cole is still young and may yet become a star. But his window with the Pirates was closing as free agency looms after this year. As Freese said this year about Taillon, if he becomes a star, he'll be gone. We've been down this road before with Jason Schmidt, Jon Lieber, Esteban Loaiza. Maybe others I can't think off. Their window with the Pirates is too brief to reach their ceiling and even if they did, they'd be gone as soon as free agency hit. If you won't pay to keep home grown pitching or to acquire proven pitching, you won't have it.
This is why I am so for drafting bats and trading for/signing pitching later on. The Pirates might still get that young pitcher to come through (Kuhl was a 9th RD pick) and add to the rotation.
I just think it is safer to draft a bat and find pitching later. Even in the latest playoff run they brought in pitching to put the team over the top.
Good post. You are absolutely right.
Mixed emotions
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
Mixed emotions
616A626E6B6A713432457C646D6A6A2B666A050 wrote: I'm actually a bit bullish on the rotation. I was even before the Cole trade. Let's be honest...Cole has been a good, but not dominant, pitcher. to be sure, he has much higher upside than anyone currently in our rotation not named Taillon. But, as of yet, that upside has not been realized. I recall many times last year when people were ready to run him out of town. That's all a way of saying that I don't think his departure will hurt that much. I have no idea if 2018 Musgrove will outperform 2017 Cole, but I wouldn't say it's out of the realm of possibilities.
Thus, I think our rotation as it is currently structured can be ok and keep us in games. I don't think it will be great, and there is no true ace, but we haven't had one of those since when...Drabek? And I mean a guy who you knew every time he took the ball was going to give you a solid performance. 2013 Liriano was pretty close to ace level. 2015 Burnett and Cole were pretty good. And I'm not talking Kershaw level talent. Kershaw is a once in a generation type player. Very few teams are lucky enough to have a guy like him. But, you'd think over the last 25 years, we'd have a guy you could count on to be a perennial All-Star...a guy like Kluber, or Keuchel, or heck...Jon Lester. Maybe Taillon and/or Keller will become that guy.
Regardless, the point is this...Taillon, Kuhl, and Williams have all shown enough to warrant a longer look. Ditto for Musgrove. If Nova can eat innings and just go out there and bang strikes, I'll take my chances.
Ultimately, I don't think this team is very good. I'm sticking with 65-97. But, I have some reason to hope that 2019 could be interesting, hinging mostly on these guys maturing and developing, and Kingham, Glasnow, Brault, or Keller stepping into the rotation for Nova next year. Much of my prediction is based on playing in a competitive division. All things being equal, I think this is probably closer to a 75-78 win team. But, 19 games against each of the Cubs and Cards is going to hurt. At least we don't have to play the AL East this year...
I agree, and losing the Cole we had the last 2 years is hardly a big blow to the team.
I don't think it's coincidence or bad luck the Bucs haven't had a Drabek-like ace since Drabek. It's the MLB system. Arbitration kicks in after 4 years and free agency after 6. It usually takes pitchers several years to reach their ceiling. But the window for the Pirates is only until the pitcher is good enough to get a big payday in arbitration or in free agency. Even Kershaw was not a stud until year 4. Cole is still young and may yet become a star. But his window with the Pirates was closing as free agency looms after this year. As Freese said this year about Taillon, if he becomes a star, he'll be gone. We've been down this road before with Jason Schmidt, Jon Lieber, Esteban Loaiza. Maybe others I can't think off. Their window with the Pirates is too brief to reach their ceiling and even if they did, they'd be gone as soon as free agency hit. If you won't pay to keep home grown pitching or to acquire proven pitching, you won't have it.
This is why I am so for drafting bats and trading for/signing pitching later on. The Pirates might still get that young pitcher to come through (Kuhl was a 9th RD pick) and add to the rotation.
I just think it is safer to draft a bat and find pitching later. Even in the latest playoff run they brought in pitching to put the team over the top.
Good post. You are absolutely right.
That's problematic too. They won't sign or trade for a stud pitcher because they come with too big a contract. They took chances with Liriano, Burnett, Volquez and Happ. But all were question marks when acquired and as soon as Volquez and Happ did well, they left for more money. They traded for prospects Locke and Morton but they never panned out. Now we'll see what Musgrove can do. It's possible to get decent pitching that way, but there are no guarantees and it could be for a brief time. But under the current system and with the Pirates tight purse strings, that's as good as it's going to get.
Thus, I think our rotation as it is currently structured can be ok and keep us in games. I don't think it will be great, and there is no true ace, but we haven't had one of those since when...Drabek? And I mean a guy who you knew every time he took the ball was going to give you a solid performance. 2013 Liriano was pretty close to ace level. 2015 Burnett and Cole were pretty good. And I'm not talking Kershaw level talent. Kershaw is a once in a generation type player. Very few teams are lucky enough to have a guy like him. But, you'd think over the last 25 years, we'd have a guy you could count on to be a perennial All-Star...a guy like Kluber, or Keuchel, or heck...Jon Lester. Maybe Taillon and/or Keller will become that guy.
Regardless, the point is this...Taillon, Kuhl, and Williams have all shown enough to warrant a longer look. Ditto for Musgrove. If Nova can eat innings and just go out there and bang strikes, I'll take my chances.
Ultimately, I don't think this team is very good. I'm sticking with 65-97. But, I have some reason to hope that 2019 could be interesting, hinging mostly on these guys maturing and developing, and Kingham, Glasnow, Brault, or Keller stepping into the rotation for Nova next year. Much of my prediction is based on playing in a competitive division. All things being equal, I think this is probably closer to a 75-78 win team. But, 19 games against each of the Cubs and Cards is going to hurt. At least we don't have to play the AL East this year...
I agree, and losing the Cole we had the last 2 years is hardly a big blow to the team.
I don't think it's coincidence or bad luck the Bucs haven't had a Drabek-like ace since Drabek. It's the MLB system. Arbitration kicks in after 4 years and free agency after 6. It usually takes pitchers several years to reach their ceiling. But the window for the Pirates is only until the pitcher is good enough to get a big payday in arbitration or in free agency. Even Kershaw was not a stud until year 4. Cole is still young and may yet become a star. But his window with the Pirates was closing as free agency looms after this year. As Freese said this year about Taillon, if he becomes a star, he'll be gone. We've been down this road before with Jason Schmidt, Jon Lieber, Esteban Loaiza. Maybe others I can't think off. Their window with the Pirates is too brief to reach their ceiling and even if they did, they'd be gone as soon as free agency hit. If you won't pay to keep home grown pitching or to acquire proven pitching, you won't have it.
This is why I am so for drafting bats and trading for/signing pitching later on. The Pirates might still get that young pitcher to come through (Kuhl was a 9th RD pick) and add to the rotation.
I just think it is safer to draft a bat and find pitching later. Even in the latest playoff run they brought in pitching to put the team over the top.
Good post. You are absolutely right.
That's problematic too. They won't sign or trade for a stud pitcher because they come with too big a contract. They took chances with Liriano, Burnett, Volquez and Happ. But all were question marks when acquired and as soon as Volquez and Happ did well, they left for more money. They traded for prospects Locke and Morton but they never panned out. Now we'll see what Musgrove can do. It's possible to get decent pitching that way, but there are no guarantees and it could be for a brief time. But under the current system and with the Pirates tight purse strings, that's as good as it's going to get.
Mixed emotions
I'm fine with loading up the offensive talent pool and trading for pitching. Right now, we aren't loaded with talent anywhere and we aren't trading anyone for much of anything. So anything that leads to a great anything, I'm all for lol
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GhostofHonus
Mixed emotions
"I believe in the soul ... the small of a woman's back, the hanging curveball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve, and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days...."
and I believe in baseball and opening day, the beginning of Spring and great possibilities....
and I believe in baseball and opening day, the beginning of Spring and great possibilities....
Mixed emotions
My college football and basketball teams were a combined 7-34 this season.
I’ve never looked forward to baseball season more.
I’ve never looked forward to baseball season more.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Mixed emotions
052A2D31362D240A2D2C3731420 wrote: "I believe in the soul ... the small of a woman's back, the hanging curveball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve, and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days...."
and I believe in baseball and opening day, the beginning of Spring and great possibilities....
Ha ha. You did leave out two things. Do you not believe in them like Crash Davis?
and I believe in baseball and opening day, the beginning of Spring and great possibilities....
Ha ha. You did leave out two things. Do you not believe in them like Crash Davis?
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GhostofHonus
Mixed emotions
777C74787D7C672224536A727B7C7C3D707C130 wrote: "I believe in the soul ... the small of a woman's back, the hanging curveball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve, and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days...."
and I believe in baseball and opening day, the beginning of Spring and great possibilities....
Ha ha. You did leave out two things. Do you not believe in them like Crash Davis?
I do believe...but the warning about this being a pg13 site and family friendly at the beginning of this message board kept me from listing all of my beliefs. Although, I believe so strongly that the first omission always stands at attention when near the 2nd.
and I believe in baseball and opening day, the beginning of Spring and great possibilities....
Ha ha. You did leave out two things. Do you not believe in them like Crash Davis?
I do believe...but the warning about this being a pg13 site and family friendly at the beginning of this message board kept me from listing all of my beliefs. Although, I believe so strongly that the first omission always stands at attention when near the 2nd.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Mixed emotions
1A35322E29323B153233282E5D0 wrote: "I believe in the soul ... the small of a woman's back, the hanging curveball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve, and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days...."
and I believe in baseball and opening day, the beginning of Spring and great possibilities....
Ha ha. You did leave out two things. Do you not believe in them like Crash Davis?
I do believe...but the warning about this being a pg13 site and family friendly at the beginning of this message board kept me from listing all of my beliefs. Although, I believe so strongly that the first omission always stands at attention when near the 2nd.
At least we hope!
and I believe in baseball and opening day, the beginning of Spring and great possibilities....
Ha ha. You did leave out two things. Do you not believe in them like Crash Davis?
I do believe...but the warning about this being a pg13 site and family friendly at the beginning of this message board kept me from listing all of my beliefs. Although, I believe so strongly that the first omission always stands at attention when near the 2nd.
At least we hope!
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GhostofHonus
Mixed emotions
656E666A6F6E753036417860696E6E2F626E010 wrote: "I believe in the soul ... the small of a woman's back, the hanging curveball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve, and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days...."
and I believe in baseball and opening day, the beginning of Spring and great possibilities....
Ha ha. You did leave out two things. Do you not believe in them like Crash Davis?
I do believe...but the warning about this being a pg13 site and family friendly at the beginning of this message board kept me from listing all of my beliefs. Although, I believe so strongly that the first omission always stands at attention when near the 2nd.
At least we hope!
"At least we hope!".....sounds like a Pirate fan.
and I believe in baseball and opening day, the beginning of Spring and great possibilities....
Ha ha. You did leave out two things. Do you not believe in them like Crash Davis?
I do believe...but the warning about this being a pg13 site and family friendly at the beginning of this message board kept me from listing all of my beliefs. Although, I believe so strongly that the first omission always stands at attention when near the 2nd.
At least we hope!
"At least we hope!".....sounds like a Pirate fan.