290D14030E150316620 wrote: Its been interesting reading the discussion of Cole and Morton and their seemingly great success once they got to the Astros. Good for both of them, especially Ground Chuck, I liked him alot.
But they are both ex-Pirates doing well elsewhere rather than for the current version of the Pirates. I wish both were here but they are not so I am just putting them off my mind and rooting and hoping that the current iteration of "good" pitchers become "great" while still in the Black & Gold.
Agreed Possum. My concern is whether there is a "systemic" problem that is keeping some guys from reaching their potential. I have nothing to base this on other than the Pirates have not had a true ace in a long time despite investing a lot of the draft and $$$$ into high ceiling guys. Cole and Charlie add to the questions.
It is a systemic problem. The system is that if a player they drafted turns out to be a less than average player, they dump him rather than pay him. If the player turns out to be an average player, they dump him rather than pay him. If the player turns out to be an above average player, they dump him rather than pay him.
Marte, McCutchen, Polanco, Harrison were all signed to an extension. Cervelli was traded for but signed an extension too. So, are you just talking about Cole?
Cole
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Cole
587C65727F647267130 wrote: Its been interesting reading the discussion of Cole and Morton and their seemingly great success once they got to the Astros. Good for both of them, especially Ground Chuck, I liked him alot.
But they are both ex-Pirates doing well elsewhere rather than for the current version of the Pirates. I wish both were here but they are not so I am just putting them off my mind and rooting and hoping that the current iteration of "good" pitchers become "great" while still in the Black & Gold.
Agreed Possum. My concern is whether there is a "systemic" problem that is keeping some guys from reaching their potential. I have nothing to base this on other than the Pirates have not had a true ace in a long time despite investing a lot of the draft and $$$$ into high ceiling guys. Cole and Charlie add to the questions.
It is a systemic problem. The system is that if a player they drafted turns out to be a less than average player, they dump him rather than pay him. If the player turns out to be an average player, they dump him rather than pay him. If the player turns out to be an above average player, they dump him rather than pay him.
We can rail against the system until we're blue in the face, or do the research as INbuc did so well, and look into one of the details within that system (the 4 seam fastball in this case) to discover possible ways to improve things.
Saying "the system sucks" here is preaching to the choir.
But they are both ex-Pirates doing well elsewhere rather than for the current version of the Pirates. I wish both were here but they are not so I am just putting them off my mind and rooting and hoping that the current iteration of "good" pitchers become "great" while still in the Black & Gold.
Agreed Possum. My concern is whether there is a "systemic" problem that is keeping some guys from reaching their potential. I have nothing to base this on other than the Pirates have not had a true ace in a long time despite investing a lot of the draft and $$$$ into high ceiling guys. Cole and Charlie add to the questions.
It is a systemic problem. The system is that if a player they drafted turns out to be a less than average player, they dump him rather than pay him. If the player turns out to be an average player, they dump him rather than pay him. If the player turns out to be an above average player, they dump him rather than pay him.
We can rail against the system until we're blue in the face, or do the research as INbuc did so well, and look into one of the details within that system (the 4 seam fastball in this case) to discover possible ways to improve things.
Saying "the system sucks" here is preaching to the choir.
Cole
4C687C74711D0 wrote: Its been interesting reading the discussion of Cole and Morton and their seemingly great success once they got to the Astros. Good for both of them, especially Ground Chuck, I liked him alot.
But they are both ex-Pirates doing well elsewhere rather than for the current version of the Pirates. I wish both were here but they are not so I am just putting them off my mind and rooting and hoping that the current iteration of "good" pitchers become "great" while still in the Black & Gold.
Agreed Possum. My concern is whether there is a "systemic" problem that is keeping some guys from reaching their potential. I have nothing to base this on other than the Pirates have not had a true ace in a long time despite investing a lot of the draft and $$$$ into high ceiling guys. Cole and Charlie add to the questions.
It is a systemic problem. The system is that if a player they drafted turns out to be a less than average player, they dump him rather than pay him. If the player turns out to be an average player, they dump him rather than pay him. If the player turns out to be an above average player, they dump him rather than pay him.
We can rail against the system until we're blue in the face, or do the research as INbuc did so well, and look into one of the details within that system (the 4 seam fastball in this case) to discover possible ways to improve things.
Saying "the system sucks" here is preaching to the choir.
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We can rail on and on about 2 seam fastballs and 4 seam fastballs while ignoring the systemic problem in Pittsburgh, i.e., BOB refuses to spend the money to make this team competitive.
Cole
61455C4B465D4B5E2A0 wrote:
Its been interesting reading the discussion of Cole and Morton and their seemingly great success once they got to the Astros. Good for both of them, especially Ground Chuck, I liked him alot.
But they are both ex-Pirates doing well elsewhere rather than for the current version of the Pirates. I wish both were here but they are not so I am just putting them off my mind and rooting and hoping that the current iteration of "good" pitchers become "great" while still in the Black & Gold.
Agreed Possum. My concern is whether there is a "systemic" problem that is keeping some guys from reaching their potential. I have nothing to base this on other than the Pirates have not had a true ace in a long time despite investing a lot of the draft and $$$$ into high ceiling guys. Cole and Charlie add to the questions.
It is a systemic problem. The system is that if a player they drafted turns out to be a less than average player, they dump him rather than pay him. If the player turns out to be an average player, they dump him rather than pay him. If the player turns out to be an above average player, they dump him rather than pay him.
We can rail against the system until we're blue in the face, or do the research as INbuc did so well, and look into one of the details within that system (the 4 seam fastball in this case) to discover possible ways to improve things.
Saying "the system sucks" here is preaching to the choir.
---
We can rail on and on about 2 seam fastballs and 4 seam fastballs while ignoring the systemic problem in Pittsburgh, i.e., BOB refuses to spend the money to make this team competitive.
Bringing to light through research the failure of the Pirates' pitch to contact coaching philosophy with statistical analysis may actually manifest a change that could improve the success of individual pitchers, and as a consequence actually make a difference in the win column.
No one is ignoring the systemic problem. Pointing out the obvious about the Pirates' league bottom 10% payroll has been done ad infinitum here and in the media. So what do you propose be done about Bob's spending problem? As John Lennon once said: "We'd all love to hear the plan."
Its been interesting reading the discussion of Cole and Morton and their seemingly great success once they got to the Astros. Good for both of them, especially Ground Chuck, I liked him alot.
But they are both ex-Pirates doing well elsewhere rather than for the current version of the Pirates. I wish both were here but they are not so I am just putting them off my mind and rooting and hoping that the current iteration of "good" pitchers become "great" while still in the Black & Gold.
Agreed Possum. My concern is whether there is a "systemic" problem that is keeping some guys from reaching their potential. I have nothing to base this on other than the Pirates have not had a true ace in a long time despite investing a lot of the draft and $$$$ into high ceiling guys. Cole and Charlie add to the questions.
It is a systemic problem. The system is that if a player they drafted turns out to be a less than average player, they dump him rather than pay him. If the player turns out to be an average player, they dump him rather than pay him. If the player turns out to be an above average player, they dump him rather than pay him.
We can rail against the system until we're blue in the face, or do the research as INbuc did so well, and look into one of the details within that system (the 4 seam fastball in this case) to discover possible ways to improve things.
Saying "the system sucks" here is preaching to the choir.
---
We can rail on and on about 2 seam fastballs and 4 seam fastballs while ignoring the systemic problem in Pittsburgh, i.e., BOB refuses to spend the money to make this team competitive.
Bringing to light through research the failure of the Pirates' pitch to contact coaching philosophy with statistical analysis may actually manifest a change that could improve the success of individual pitchers, and as a consequence actually make a difference in the win column.
No one is ignoring the systemic problem. Pointing out the obvious about the Pirates' league bottom 10% payroll has been done ad infinitum here and in the media. So what do you propose be done about Bob's spending problem? As John Lennon once said: "We'd all love to hear the plan."
Cole
I'll say one thing, at least the Pirates seem to be at the fore of statistical analysis. I suspect that if we're running these numbers, somebody in their FO has also already done it as well, and in much greater detail. If getting ground balls was all the rage five years ago, and this is the next big thing, there's no reason the Pirates can't be in on that. They certainly are in their bullpen. NH loves hard throwing relievers. No reason to not also love hard throwing starters.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Cole
50514A5B4D0D0A3E0 wrote: Morton had upper 90's stuff when he was here. He just wasn't allowed to throw a 4 seam fastball.
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The reason that Cole and Morton were salary dumped is the same and it has nothing to do with 4 seam fastballs. It has everything to do with BOB wanting to save money to deposit in the First National Bank of Wheeling.
So you were mad when they traded Morton, right?
No not really, but are you saying Morton and Cole weren't handled properly?
I wasn't a fan of the deals but for different reasons (which were probably the same as most people). I thought they were moving Morton out to bolster the rotation with someone better, an instead it just didn't happen. The Cole deal was just kind of underwhelming in its return, and it looks worse now even though I like the guys we got back.
You do wonder if it's our process that kept them down, and it'll be interesting to watch. I'm no kind of scout or analyst or coach, but it doesn't take one to see what those guys have done with Houston. That hurts, but we obviously helped several other pitchers. You'd hope that in the future we can take what we learned and evolve.
One thing we shouldn't lose sight of, though, is all the revisionist history going on about letting Morton go.
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The reason that Cole and Morton were salary dumped is the same and it has nothing to do with 4 seam fastballs. It has everything to do with BOB wanting to save money to deposit in the First National Bank of Wheeling.
So you were mad when they traded Morton, right?
No not really, but are you saying Morton and Cole weren't handled properly?
I wasn't a fan of the deals but for different reasons (which were probably the same as most people). I thought they were moving Morton out to bolster the rotation with someone better, an instead it just didn't happen. The Cole deal was just kind of underwhelming in its return, and it looks worse now even though I like the guys we got back.
You do wonder if it's our process that kept them down, and it'll be interesting to watch. I'm no kind of scout or analyst or coach, but it doesn't take one to see what those guys have done with Houston. That hurts, but we obviously helped several other pitchers. You'd hope that in the future we can take what we learned and evolve.
One thing we shouldn't lose sight of, though, is all the revisionist history going on about letting Morton go.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Cole
I never knew there was such a big difference in the two seamer and a four seamer. That is very interesting if that is what is happening.
Many of us predicted Cole would go on and be a star. He has a lot of talent. If Cole wasn't going to sign long term or an extension, it was the right move to trade him. Cole and Morton could be finally maturing into pitchers too. We all saw the potential in Pittsburgh and they had some nice seasons. Not this nice, but still big parts to a playoff run.
Many of us predicted Cole would go on and be a star. He has a lot of talent. If Cole wasn't going to sign long term or an extension, it was the right move to trade him. Cole and Morton could be finally maturing into pitchers too. We all saw the potential in Pittsburgh and they had some nice seasons. Not this nice, but still big parts to a playoff run.
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Bobster21
Cole
4F7D71716557747D70757A7D1C0 wrote: Morton had upper 90's stuff when he was here. He just wasn't allowed to throw a 4 seam fastball.
--
The reason that Cole and Morton were salary dumped is the same and it has nothing to do with 4 seam fastballs. It has everything to do with BOB wanting to save money to deposit in the First National Bank of Wheeling.
So you were mad when they traded Morton, right?
No not really, but are you saying Morton and Cole weren't handled properly?
I wasn't a fan of the deals but for different reasons (which were probably the same as most people). I thought they were moving Morton out to bolster the rotation with someone better, an instead it just didn't happen. The Cole deal was just kind of underwhelming in its return, and it looks worse now even though I like the guys we got back.
You do wonder if it's our process that kept them down, and it'll be interesting to watch. I'm no kind of scout or analyst or coach, but it doesn't take one to see what those guys have done with Houston. That hurts, but we obviously helped several other pitchers. You'd hope that in the future we can take what we learned and evolve.
One thing we shouldn't lose sight of, though, is all the revisionist history going on about letting Morton go.
Exactly. Morton was a major disappointment and few seemed less than elated to see him go. The popular thinking at the time was that the Pirates had become competitive and needed to upgrade the rotation by replacing Morton and Locke if they were serious about winning a championship. When Morton was moved, it was assumed the upgrade was underway. But when his replacement was an even worse 38 year old Vogelsong who would pitch for 6 million less than Morton, what started out looking like a move to improve the team's pitching ended up looking like a salary dump. On top of that, they kept the generally ineffective Locke that year and wound up starting Nicasio, who was supposed to relieve, instead of Vogelsong, who just wasn't up to the task. So moving Morton was a salary dump only because they replaced a bad pitcher with an even worse but cheaper one. But few were sorry to see him go after 7 mostly disappointing seasons.
--
The reason that Cole and Morton were salary dumped is the same and it has nothing to do with 4 seam fastballs. It has everything to do with BOB wanting to save money to deposit in the First National Bank of Wheeling.
So you were mad when they traded Morton, right?
No not really, but are you saying Morton and Cole weren't handled properly?
I wasn't a fan of the deals but for different reasons (which were probably the same as most people). I thought they were moving Morton out to bolster the rotation with someone better, an instead it just didn't happen. The Cole deal was just kind of underwhelming in its return, and it looks worse now even though I like the guys we got back.
You do wonder if it's our process that kept them down, and it'll be interesting to watch. I'm no kind of scout or analyst or coach, but it doesn't take one to see what those guys have done with Houston. That hurts, but we obviously helped several other pitchers. You'd hope that in the future we can take what we learned and evolve.
One thing we shouldn't lose sight of, though, is all the revisionist history going on about letting Morton go.
Exactly. Morton was a major disappointment and few seemed less than elated to see him go. The popular thinking at the time was that the Pirates had become competitive and needed to upgrade the rotation by replacing Morton and Locke if they were serious about winning a championship. When Morton was moved, it was assumed the upgrade was underway. But when his replacement was an even worse 38 year old Vogelsong who would pitch for 6 million less than Morton, what started out looking like a move to improve the team's pitching ended up looking like a salary dump. On top of that, they kept the generally ineffective Locke that year and wound up starting Nicasio, who was supposed to relieve, instead of Vogelsong, who just wasn't up to the task. So moving Morton was a salary dump only because they replaced a bad pitcher with an even worse but cheaper one. But few were sorry to see him go after 7 mostly disappointing seasons.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Cole
Most of the credit for Morton's later-career success I give to Charlie himself. He was always an interesting guy, and I'm glad he is doing well.
Cole
Morton was tantalizing because you could see he had good stuff but consistently struggled. He went to the Phillies and did nothing there but get hurt. I view him a little like Jose Bautista. It sucks that he seems to be blossoming elsewhere but I am not blaming the Pirates too much for that. Also, I will be curious to see if his success is lasting. He has shown flashes in the past and then regressed.
Cole is a different subject. I want to complain about the return we received for him but he was pretty mediocre the last few seasons. Did the Pirates mishandle him? Maybe. Does he have less pressure to carry a team and is performing better because he is clearly the two or three starter? Possibly. He was much better in Pittsburgh when AJ was the leader. Maybe Cole is relaxed knowing his team has a better shot to win because they will spend. Maybe the change in throwing the 4 seam and more breaking balls is the key. I don't know. I do know that a guy with his stuff should have been better the last couple of seasons.
Cole is a different subject. I want to complain about the return we received for him but he was pretty mediocre the last few seasons. Did the Pirates mishandle him? Maybe. Does he have less pressure to carry a team and is performing better because he is clearly the two or three starter? Possibly. He was much better in Pittsburgh when AJ was the leader. Maybe Cole is relaxed knowing his team has a better shot to win because they will spend. Maybe the change in throwing the 4 seam and more breaking balls is the key. I don't know. I do know that a guy with his stuff should have been better the last couple of seasons.