OnlyBucs

747D75646A100 wrote: I guess if you aren't completely supportive of every good minor leaguer staying up and taking over for every underperforming major leaguer, you're just being unfair.  It has to be 100% or nothing.   



Kingham should be in the rotation.  But the guy he should've replaced just pitched last night, and that sure won't happen...


Not every situation is the same and I wasn't saying that, if you support Meadows replacing Polanco but didn't support Kingham replacing somebody you must be a hypocrite, but the differing reactions puzzle me.



Underperformance can be subjective. I don't really think Polanco is underperforming. His offense is better than league average and it's better than he's done in the past up to this point. And he was better than average for the 2016 season. He's not as good as Meadows has been in six games and he's not as good as we thought he was going to be at this juncture.



On the other hand, Kuhl, for instance, has started for parts of three years and has about two full years worth of starts and has never been better than average in that role. He hasn't been atrocious by any means but he hasn't been particularly good either. Kingham comes up and pitches well but nobody is shouting to move Kuhl (or Nova) so that Kingham is not going back to AAA.



Fans don't complain or stop complaining because the front office has made the decision. My suspicion is that when Meadows is sent back to AAA when Marte is healthy, people will be furious and express that even after the decision is made. I don't understand the differing reactions in this particular case.

There is no way Williams is a providing an "ace-like" performance.



Williams has been arguably maybe one of our two best starters, yes, but not "ace-like."



I would define him as a slightly above average MLB starter and the kind of pitcher typically thought of as No. 4 starter, MAYBE a No. 3.



Unfortunately that's not what you want out of the guy who might be your best starter.

557063766A616A6B6E66020 wrote: I guess if you aren't completely supportive of every good minor leaguer staying up and taking over for every underperforming major leaguer, you're just being unfair.  It has to be 100% or nothing.   



Kingham should be in the rotation.  But the guy he should've replaced just pitched last night, and that sure won't happen...


Not every situation is the same and I wasn't saying that, if you support Meadows replacing Polanco but didn't support Kingham replacing somebody you must be a hypocrite, but the differing reactions puzzle me.



Underperformance can be subjective.  I don't really think Polanco is underperforming.  His offense is better than league average and it's better than he's done in the past up to this point.  And he was better than average for the 2016 season. He's not as good as Meadows has been in six games and he's not as good as we thought he was going to be at this juncture. 



On the other hand, Kuhl, for instance, has started for parts of three years and has about two full years worth of starts and has never been better than average in that role.  He hasn't been atrocious by any means but he hasn't been particularly good either.  Kingham comes up and pitches well but nobody is shouting to move Kuhl (or Nova) so that Kingham is not going back to AAA.



Fans don't complain or stop complaining because the front office has made the decision.  My suspicion is that when Meadows is sent back to AAA when Marte is healthy, people will be furious and express that even after the decision is made.  I don't understand the differing reactions in this particular case.






What youre saying is Polanco is this team's scapegoat when folks could just as easily focus on Bell, or Kuhl or.....Taillion.



You are correct.  Polance is the guy this year.  Happens every year it seems. Polanco has seriously under-performed, but it's no small thing to be willing to give up on the guy.

Personally I feel the same about Kingham as I do about Meadows. Both should be with the team right now; ultimately replacing Polanco and Nova respectively.



As to why there may be some who are more demonstrative about Meadows remaining with the team than Kingham perhaps it has something to do with expectations. Meadows has been the top position player prospect in the organization for several years, while Kingham was never the top pitching prospect and had been buried on the organizational depth chart by two consecutive injury plagued seasons.

I'm don't agree with the idea that Polanco is having a bad offensive season either.  An OK year.  Not great, not bad.  He's a hot streak away from looking real good.   He's a 1 week slump away from looking like a bust again.



However, I would be puzzled if fans weren't clamoring for a top prospect who has come up and slugged .800 in his first 6 games, to take over for a tried and true 1900 at bat pedestrian Polanco.    I mean, he's running at like 110-115 OPS+ as a right fielder.  That's not like some great shakes, especially with his defense this year so far. He's running at replacement level on BR and Fangraphs because of the defense.



RE: Kingham

For me, I would have clear preference for Nova to be removed from the rotation before Kuhl.   Nova doesn't have the weaponry to be much better.   Kuhl still has upside and they're both comparably effective (or ineffective) right now.   



If we go by FIP right now, they're all back of the rotation types.  Good ones, as far as that goes, but still nothing great.    Nova's contract makes removing him for Kingham next to impossible, So long as Nova doesn't explode completely, I don't think the org would even consider removing him.   



Somebody will probably find the DL soon, they usually do.  Then Kingham comes up.   

614551595C300 wrote: I think this conversation is why we have to trade OF for minor league pitching talent with upside.   



We need more high upside SP talent.   Go into A+ ball if you have to, but get high upside arms and learn to develop pitchers better.   We appear to be doing something wrong with SP organizationally...



We also appear to have a crazy good strategy at building bullpens.    Need to seriously revamp rotation strategy, imo. 


I agree our developing starting pitchers is awful. It's obvious to most observers, in fact the entire Minor league system strategy seems flawed. Can't understand why it takes so long to get players ML ready.

446172677B707B7A7F77130 wrote: I guess if you aren't completely supportive of every good minor leaguer staying up and taking over for every underperforming major leaguer, you're just being unfair.  It has to be 100% or nothing.   



Kingham should be in the rotation.  But the guy he should've replaced just pitched last night, and that sure won't happen...


Not every situation is the same and I wasn't saying that, if you support Meadows replacing Polanco but didn't support Kingham replacing somebody you must be a hypocrite, but the differing reactions puzzle me.



Underperformance can be subjective.  I don't really think Polanco is underperforming.  His offense is better than league average and it's better than he's done in the past up to this point.  And he was better than average for the 2016 season. He's not as good as Meadows has been in six games and he's not as good as we thought he was going to be at this juncture. 



On the other hand, Kuhl, for instance, has started for parts of three years and has about two full years worth of starts and has never been better than average in that role.  He hasn't been atrocious by any means but he hasn't been particularly good either.  Kingham comes up and pitches well but nobody is shouting to move Kuhl (or Nova) so that Kingham is not going back to AAA.



Fans don't complain or stop complaining because the front office has made the decision.  My suspicion is that when Meadows is sent back to AAA when Marte is healthy, people will be furious and express that even after the decision is made.  I don't understand the differing reactions in this particular case.


League average is dragged down by pitchers and weak hitting middle infielders and catchers. A corner outfielder should be much better than that. Per MLB site stats, there are currently 31 NL outfielders with a qualifying number of ABs. Polanco is 26th of 31 in BA, 20th of 31 in OBP, 13th in SLG and 20th in OPS. Among the 8 usual Pirate starters (including Marte), Polanco is 8th in BA, 7th in OBP, 4th in SLG and 5th in OPS. I'd say he's definitely under performing. And if this is the best he's ever done at this point of any season, that's sad.