4B40484441405B1E186F564E474040014C402F0 wrote:
This is why I feel so left down. We were told that the plan was in place and the moves to bolster the roster would be made when the time was right. It was right in 2016. This management team in getting what they deserve. Sorry, I love this team but I'm sick and tired of the BS. The team they have assembled sucks. Plan and simple. The fast start to the season is the only thing keeping them from losing 100 games. Get ready for another long stretch of this. Ownership will now say the fans aren't supporting them so payroll won't increase or worse yet get decreased again. Its always going to be this vicious cycle until we have a real owner.
The 2016 team lost because McCutchen, Cole, Liriano, Locke and Harrison didn't show up. They had awful years. Awful. Polanco had a better year than McCutchen. Rodriguez had a better year than Harrison. Cervelli was bad and injured and they had four back up catchers playing too much. many experts in general and on this board thought Harrison was better than Walker. No one wanted Alvarez back. That's why they lost.
They all didn’t have good years the guys you mentioned but the management on the team still failed to go out and improve a team that won 98 games the year before. They relied on garbage like Locke,Niese, and Vogelsong to fill out their rotation, and then signed John Jaso who sucks to be their everyday first baseman. So while your right Dog the stars on the team had terrible years, the management still went out and did absolutely nothing in free agency to improve the team after they won 98 games a year before. Relying on guys like Locke, Niese, and Vogelsong to stabilize your rotation from 3-5, and signing garbage like John Jaso is not what a organization that truly wants to win would do.
Arizona game
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
Arizona game
4C4B5D555B4C0B077E59535F5752105D51533E0 wrote:
I truly hate that this is true, but it is the harsh reality of this great game: Time is proving that the Pirate’s run of 2013-2015 was lightening in a bottle, luck. It was not the result of a sustainable plan that can be “turned over” every few years. Everything that looked like genius in 2015 looks like incompetence in 2018.
I see it a little differently. The Nutting/Huntington plan for 2013-2015 was a good one. But they chose not to sustain the plan. They're looking for bargains. Payroll in 2015 was 77% of MLB average. Now it's 63%. Trading their most marketable players for youth. Going with a young, still somewhat inexperienced starting rotation and bullpen. This is not the plan they followed to become competitive. That plan might still work. But it was abandoned.
As for the bullpen, last year their top relievers for most appearances were Rivero, Hudson, Nicasio, LeBlanc, Watson, Schugel, Maranez, Barbato, Neverauskas, Santana and Kontos. Most were gone and only Rivero and Kontos looked like locks to even make the team. And Kontos was iffy because he had been effective only in a SSS after being waived by SF. The Pirates added Feliz and hoped that his awful 2017 stats could be turned around. He's still awful. Crick was decent as a rookie last year but not dominating. Santana was so-so last year. Glasnow is in the pen because they can't figure out what to do with him. Brault is there because he's a LHP and can go more than 1 inning but his 4.47 ERA doesn't inspire confidence. Neverauskas is still looking like a AAAA pitcher. Smoker and Romero were disasters. Rodriguez was a minor league journeyman pitcher. And Vazquez has unexpectedly struggled. When a full scale restocking of the BP became necessary after the 2017 season, no established, successful relievers were obtained. The plan seems to have been to obtain inexpensive pitchers who might possibly turn out better than we have a right to expect. The plan was to hope this collection of relievers who had no track record of success (other than Vazquez) could do the job. There's a line in the movie "Deepwater Horizon" that says, "Hope is not a tactic." Well, when NH totally rebuilt the BP for 2018, hope was the only tactic.
I truly hate that this is true, but it is the harsh reality of this great game: Time is proving that the Pirate’s run of 2013-2015 was lightening in a bottle, luck. It was not the result of a sustainable plan that can be “turned over” every few years. Everything that looked like genius in 2015 looks like incompetence in 2018.
I see it a little differently. The Nutting/Huntington plan for 2013-2015 was a good one. But they chose not to sustain the plan. They're looking for bargains. Payroll in 2015 was 77% of MLB average. Now it's 63%. Trading their most marketable players for youth. Going with a young, still somewhat inexperienced starting rotation and bullpen. This is not the plan they followed to become competitive. That plan might still work. But it was abandoned.
As for the bullpen, last year their top relievers for most appearances were Rivero, Hudson, Nicasio, LeBlanc, Watson, Schugel, Maranez, Barbato, Neverauskas, Santana and Kontos. Most were gone and only Rivero and Kontos looked like locks to even make the team. And Kontos was iffy because he had been effective only in a SSS after being waived by SF. The Pirates added Feliz and hoped that his awful 2017 stats could be turned around. He's still awful. Crick was decent as a rookie last year but not dominating. Santana was so-so last year. Glasnow is in the pen because they can't figure out what to do with him. Brault is there because he's a LHP and can go more than 1 inning but his 4.47 ERA doesn't inspire confidence. Neverauskas is still looking like a AAAA pitcher. Smoker and Romero were disasters. Rodriguez was a minor league journeyman pitcher. And Vazquez has unexpectedly struggled. When a full scale restocking of the BP became necessary after the 2017 season, no established, successful relievers were obtained. The plan seems to have been to obtain inexpensive pitchers who might possibly turn out better than we have a right to expect. The plan was to hope this collection of relievers who had no track record of success (other than Vazquez) could do the job. There's a line in the movie "Deepwater Horizon" that says, "Hope is not a tactic." Well, when NH totally rebuilt the BP for 2018, hope was the only tactic.
Arizona game
3C373F3336372C696F182139303737763B37580 wrote:
This is why I feel so left down. We were told that the plan was in place and the moves to bolster the roster would be made when the time was right. It was right in 2016. This management team in getting what they deserve. Sorry, I love this team but I'm sick and tired of the BS. The team they have assembled sucks. Plan and simple. The fast start to the season is the only thing keeping them from losing 100 games. Get ready for another long stretch of this. Ownership will now say the fans aren't supporting them so payroll won't increase or worse yet get decreased again. Its always going to be this vicious cycle until we have a real owner.
The 2016 team lost because McCutchen, Cole, Liriano, Locke and Harrison didn't show up. They had awful years. Awful. Polanco had a better year than McCutchen. Rodriguez had a better year than Harrison. Cervelli was bad and injured and they had four back up catchers playing too much. many experts in general and on this board thought Harrison was better than Walker. No one wanted Alvarez back. That's why they lost.
Once again you're blaming players and making excuses for management.
This is why I feel so left down. We were told that the plan was in place and the moves to bolster the roster would be made when the time was right. It was right in 2016. This management team in getting what they deserve. Sorry, I love this team but I'm sick and tired of the BS. The team they have assembled sucks. Plan and simple. The fast start to the season is the only thing keeping them from losing 100 games. Get ready for another long stretch of this. Ownership will now say the fans aren't supporting them so payroll won't increase or worse yet get decreased again. Its always going to be this vicious cycle until we have a real owner.
The 2016 team lost because McCutchen, Cole, Liriano, Locke and Harrison didn't show up. They had awful years. Awful. Polanco had a better year than McCutchen. Rodriguez had a better year than Harrison. Cervelli was bad and injured and they had four back up catchers playing too much. many experts in general and on this board thought Harrison was better than Walker. No one wanted Alvarez back. That's why they lost.
Once again you're blaming players and making excuses for management.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Arizona game
Out of the 18 pitchers who have pitched for the Pirates, 13 of them are 26 years old or younger. Two of the players older than 26 were cut, two others are on the disabled list.
This is a very young and inexperienced pitching staff. That isn't an excuse, that is a fact. The Pirates have the fourth youngest team in all of baseball. They have to have the youngest pitching staff.
This is a very young and inexperienced pitching staff. That isn't an excuse, that is a fact. The Pirates have the fourth youngest team in all of baseball. They have to have the youngest pitching staff.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Arizona game
2B2A3120367671450 wrote:
This is why I feel so left down. We were told that the plan was in place and the moves to bolster the roster would be made when the time was right. It was right in 2016. This management team in getting what they deserve. Sorry, I love this team but I'm sick and tired of the BS. The team they have assembled sucks. Plan and simple. The fast start to the season is the only thing keeping them from losing 100 games. Get ready for another long stretch of this. Ownership will now say the fans aren't supporting them so payroll won't increase or worse yet get decreased again. Its always going to be this vicious cycle until we have a real owner.
The 2016 team lost because McCutchen, Cole, Liriano, Locke and Harrison didn't show up. They had awful years. Awful. Polanco had a better year than McCutchen. Rodriguez had a better year than Harrison. Cervelli was bad and injured and they had four back up catchers playing too much. many experts in general and on this board thought Harrison was better than Walker. No one wanted Alvarez back. That's why they lost.
Once again you're blaming players and making excuses for management.
Once again, you keep leaving that part out. Keep bringing up Volgelsong (with Taillon in the waiting) and Jaso instead of pointing out Harrison, McCutchen, Cervelli, Liriano, and Cole were terrible.
This is why I feel so left down. We were told that the plan was in place and the moves to bolster the roster would be made when the time was right. It was right in 2016. This management team in getting what they deserve. Sorry, I love this team but I'm sick and tired of the BS. The team they have assembled sucks. Plan and simple. The fast start to the season is the only thing keeping them from losing 100 games. Get ready for another long stretch of this. Ownership will now say the fans aren't supporting them so payroll won't increase or worse yet get decreased again. Its always going to be this vicious cycle until we have a real owner.
The 2016 team lost because McCutchen, Cole, Liriano, Locke and Harrison didn't show up. They had awful years. Awful. Polanco had a better year than McCutchen. Rodriguez had a better year than Harrison. Cervelli was bad and injured and they had four back up catchers playing too much. many experts in general and on this board thought Harrison was better than Walker. No one wanted Alvarez back. That's why they lost.
Once again you're blaming players and making excuses for management.
Once again, you keep leaving that part out. Keep bringing up Volgelsong (with Taillon in the waiting) and Jaso instead of pointing out Harrison, McCutchen, Cervelli, Liriano, and Cole were terrible.
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SteadyFreddy
Arizona game
They all were terrible and bad I didn’t say they weren’t. But it still doesn’t change the fact that the Pirates did nothing to improve upon a team that won 98 games. They could have signed JA Happ instead of going with a guy like Niese or Locke and didn’t. They could have went out and signed a better 1st baseman then John Jaso and they didn’t. My point is the management team will not spend the money and do what is necessary to win and try to make a 98 win team better. Would a team like the Cubs or Cards go out and sign garbage like Jaso and Vogelsong and rely on a stiff like Jon Niese to stabilize their rotation after a 98 win season?? I think we all know the answer to that.
Arizona game
230E03121504135350610 wrote:
I truly hate that this is true, but it is the harsh reality of this great game: Time is proving that the Pirate’s run of 2013-2015 was lightening in a bottle, luck. It was not the result of a sustainable plan that can be “turned over” every few years. Everything that looked like genius in 2015 looks like incompetence in 2018.
I see it a little differently. The Nutting/Huntington plan for 2013-2015 was a good one. But they chose not to sustain the plan. They're looking for bargains. Payroll in 2015 was 77% of MLB average. Now it's 63%. Trading their most marketable players for youth. Going with a young, still somewhat inexperienced starting rotation and bullpen. This is not the plan they followed to become competitive. That plan might still work. But it was abandoned.
As for the bullpen, last year their top relievers for most appearances were Rivero, Hudson, Nicasio, LeBlanc, Watson, Schugel, Maranez, Barbato, Neverauskas, Santana and Kontos. Most were gone and only Rivero and Kontos looked like locks to even make the team. And Kontos was iffy because he had been effective only in a SSS after being waived by SF. The Pirates added Feliz and hoped that his awful 2017 stats could be turned around. He's still awful. Crick was decent as a rookie last year but not dominating. Santana was so-so last year. Glasnow is in the pen because they can't figure out what to do with him. Brault is there because he's a LHP and can go more than 1 inning but his 4.47 ERA doesn't inspire confidence. Neverauskas is still looking like a AAAA pitcher. Smoker and Romero were disasters. Rodriguez was a minor league journeyman pitcher. And Vazquez has unexpectedly struggled. When a full scale restocking of the BP became necessary after the 2017 season, no established, successful relievers were obtained. The plan seems to have been to obtain inexpensive pitchers who might possibly turn out better than we have a right to expect. The plan was to hope this collection of relievers who had no track record of success (other than Vazquez) could do the job. There's a line in the movie "Deepwater Horizon" that says, "Hope is not a tactic." Well, when NH totally rebuilt the BP for 2018, hope was the only tactic.
That's good stuff. For me, this is the ironic thing about this year. Like him or hate him, the general consensus on NH is that he has historically always put a good bullpen together. It seems like even his major detractors can give him that. This year has been a mess from top to bottom. I didn't look at any numbers, but huge bullpen disasters has cost them, what, 4-5 games? That would be a big swing in the standing and emotionally right now.
I truly hate that this is true, but it is the harsh reality of this great game: Time is proving that the Pirate’s run of 2013-2015 was lightening in a bottle, luck. It was not the result of a sustainable plan that can be “turned over” every few years. Everything that looked like genius in 2015 looks like incompetence in 2018.
I see it a little differently. The Nutting/Huntington plan for 2013-2015 was a good one. But they chose not to sustain the plan. They're looking for bargains. Payroll in 2015 was 77% of MLB average. Now it's 63%. Trading their most marketable players for youth. Going with a young, still somewhat inexperienced starting rotation and bullpen. This is not the plan they followed to become competitive. That plan might still work. But it was abandoned.
As for the bullpen, last year their top relievers for most appearances were Rivero, Hudson, Nicasio, LeBlanc, Watson, Schugel, Maranez, Barbato, Neverauskas, Santana and Kontos. Most were gone and only Rivero and Kontos looked like locks to even make the team. And Kontos was iffy because he had been effective only in a SSS after being waived by SF. The Pirates added Feliz and hoped that his awful 2017 stats could be turned around. He's still awful. Crick was decent as a rookie last year but not dominating. Santana was so-so last year. Glasnow is in the pen because they can't figure out what to do with him. Brault is there because he's a LHP and can go more than 1 inning but his 4.47 ERA doesn't inspire confidence. Neverauskas is still looking like a AAAA pitcher. Smoker and Romero were disasters. Rodriguez was a minor league journeyman pitcher. And Vazquez has unexpectedly struggled. When a full scale restocking of the BP became necessary after the 2017 season, no established, successful relievers were obtained. The plan seems to have been to obtain inexpensive pitchers who might possibly turn out better than we have a right to expect. The plan was to hope this collection of relievers who had no track record of success (other than Vazquez) could do the job. There's a line in the movie "Deepwater Horizon" that says, "Hope is not a tactic." Well, when NH totally rebuilt the BP for 2018, hope was the only tactic.
That's good stuff. For me, this is the ironic thing about this year. Like him or hate him, the general consensus on NH is that he has historically always put a good bullpen together. It seems like even his major detractors can give him that. This year has been a mess from top to bottom. I didn't look at any numbers, but huge bullpen disasters has cost them, what, 4-5 games? That would be a big swing in the standing and emotionally right now.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Arizona game
30170602071A25110607071A630 wrote: They all were terrible and bad I didn’t say they weren’t. But it still doesn’t change the fact that the Pirates did nothing to improve upon a team that won 98 games. They could have signed JA Happ instead of going with a guy like Niese or Locke and didn’t. They could have went out and signed a better 1st baseman then John Jaso and they didn’t. My point is the management team will not spend the money and do what is necessary to win and try to make a 98 win team better. Would a team like the Cubs or Cards go out and sign garbage like Jaso and Vogelsong and rely on a stiff like Jon Niese to stabilize their rotation after a 98 win season?? I think we all know the answer to that.
The Cardinals didn't build on their 100 win season. They missed the playoffs in 2016 too. The Cardinals had the best record in all of baseball in 2015. So your answer is, Yes.
The Cardinals didn't build on their 100 win season. They missed the playoffs in 2016 too. The Cardinals had the best record in all of baseball in 2015. So your answer is, Yes.
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SteadyFreddy
Arizona game
3E353D3134352E6B6D1A233B3235357439355A0 wrote: They all were terrible and bad I didn’t say they weren’t. But it still doesn’t change the fact that the Pirates did nothing to improve upon a team that won 98 games. They could have signed JA Happ instead of going with a guy like Niese or Locke and didn’t. They could have went out and signed a better 1st baseman then John Jaso and they didn’t. My point is the management team will not spend the money and do what is necessary to win and try to make a 98 win team better. Would a team like the Cubs or Cards go out and sign garbage like Jaso and Vogelsong and rely on a stiff like Jon Niese to stabilize their rotation after a 98 win season?? I think we all know the answer to that.
The Cardinals didn't build on their 100 win season. They missed the playoffs in 2016 too. The Cardinals had the best record in all of baseball in 2015. So your answer is, Yes.
So you had no problem with the Pirates opening the season up in 2016 with a rotation of Cole,Liriano,Niese,Locke, and Vogelsong and you actually believed that rotation was good enough to compete for a playoff spot in 2016.
The Cardinals didn't build on their 100 win season. They missed the playoffs in 2016 too. The Cardinals had the best record in all of baseball in 2015. So your answer is, Yes.
So you had no problem with the Pirates opening the season up in 2016 with a rotation of Cole,Liriano,Niese,Locke, and Vogelsong and you actually believed that rotation was good enough to compete for a playoff spot in 2016.
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SteadyFreddy
Arizona game
Getting back to the Cardinals let’s not even compare the Pirates to them as an organization because it’s not even close. The Cardinals have a payroll of 166 million and spend money on players and add players st the deadline the Pirates don’t. The Cardinals have also won 4 pennants and played in 4 World Series in the last 14 years and won 2 of them. The Pirates haven’t sniffed a pennant and a World Series appearance in almost 40 years now. So I’m gonna give the Cardinals the benefit of the doubt for one year not adding to their payroll too much because they win consistently the Pirates don’t. That right there is all you need to know about the difference between the two organizations.