0A262E292205322434470 wrote: On the optimistic end --- The most encouraging move that I have seen the Pirates make this year and actually in most recent years is promoting Meadows to the majors. While his performance has dropped off quite a bit from the unrealistic early results, he is still hitting close to .300 and he is the only outfielder who has regularly been asked to shift from LF to CF to RF depending on which day it is in the infamous 4 day rotation. The Pirates promoted him even though he clearly will use up some of his super 2 eligibility.
On the other end - I don't understand why the Pirates will not send a position player who is struggling to the minors, both Bell and Polanco. I know the Bucs do not have any great 1st base options, but Bell isn't hitting (no power) and his fielding is rapidly dropping off to Alvarez levels. Send him to AAA or AA to see if he can regain some power. Although his hitting did pick up for a week plus, I would do the same with Polanco and give Luplow some playing time. I know the team needs some bench bats, but what is the value of having Luplow sit in the majors after he had recently found his swing in AAA.
I continue to support the Pirates trading their tradable position assets to try and improve the long term perspective for the team. This team, as currently constituted, does not appear to have enough assets to compete.
And, although I know that it will not happen, the Bucs need to remove Hurdle (atrocious approach to Tallion on Saturday) and to bring in a new manager.
good points, I would like to hear Hurdle or a coach or Bell say something like:
Bell has certainly struggled on defense this year. He is putting in a lot of extra work with Coach X to improve.
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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OrlandoMerced
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
Here's what I'm doing if I'm GM of this team for 2019.
At the deadline, i'm looking to move Harrison, Freese, Dickerson and Nova, and any of those guys that are unwanted, hopefully moved in the offseason. I think Harrison has value as a utility guy and Nova as potential pitching depth to a contender, but I could see those guys as unmoveable. but perhaps, if you package dickerson with Nova or Harrison you can get a team to take them.
I'm letting Mercer and Rodriguez walk and I'm adding in FA.
I would like the roster to look something like:
C Cervelli $11,500,000
1B Bell $600,000
2B Kramer/Newman $550,000
SS Escobar $15,000,000
3B Moran $600,000
RF Polanco $6,100,000
CF Marte $10,333,334
LF Meadows $550,000
1P Keuchel $25,000,000
2P Taillon $600,000
3P Musgrove $600,000
4P Williams $600,000
5P Kingham $550,000
BN Luplow $550,000
BN Diaz $550,000
BN Frazier $550,000
BN Newman/Kramer $550,000
BN Osuna $550,000
RP Vazquez $4,500,000
RP Crick $550,000
RP Glasnow $550,000
RP Rodriguez $550,000
RP Feliz $1,200,000
RP Santana/Kuhl $550,000
RP Brault $550,000
Total $83,783,334
I don't think Keuchel would be looking at much more than Arrieta, and I think they need to be serious about adding to the top of the rotation, and a lefty would play well at PNC park.
Eduardo Escobar is having a breakout year, I think the big spenders will be lining up for Machado, Harper and Donaldson, so if the Pirates swoop in early with an offer to Escobar, he might choose to sign as opposed to waiting for the Machado runner ups. They are absolutely in a position to add salary, they have compiled a roster of players in their pre-arb years, and none of them are looking at big arbitration pay days.
At the deadline, i'm looking to move Harrison, Freese, Dickerson and Nova, and any of those guys that are unwanted, hopefully moved in the offseason. I think Harrison has value as a utility guy and Nova as potential pitching depth to a contender, but I could see those guys as unmoveable. but perhaps, if you package dickerson with Nova or Harrison you can get a team to take them.
I'm letting Mercer and Rodriguez walk and I'm adding in FA.
I would like the roster to look something like:
C Cervelli $11,500,000
1B Bell $600,000
2B Kramer/Newman $550,000
SS Escobar $15,000,000
3B Moran $600,000
RF Polanco $6,100,000
CF Marte $10,333,334
LF Meadows $550,000
1P Keuchel $25,000,000
2P Taillon $600,000
3P Musgrove $600,000
4P Williams $600,000
5P Kingham $550,000
BN Luplow $550,000
BN Diaz $550,000
BN Frazier $550,000
BN Newman/Kramer $550,000
BN Osuna $550,000
RP Vazquez $4,500,000
RP Crick $550,000
RP Glasnow $550,000
RP Rodriguez $550,000
RP Feliz $1,200,000
RP Santana/Kuhl $550,000
RP Brault $550,000
Total $83,783,334
I don't think Keuchel would be looking at much more than Arrieta, and I think they need to be serious about adding to the top of the rotation, and a lefty would play well at PNC park.
Eduardo Escobar is having a breakout year, I think the big spenders will be lining up for Machado, Harper and Donaldson, so if the Pirates swoop in early with an offer to Escobar, he might choose to sign as opposed to waiting for the Machado runner ups. They are absolutely in a position to add salary, they have compiled a roster of players in their pre-arb years, and none of them are looking at big arbitration pay days.
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
6F524C414E444F6D4552434544200 wrote: Here's what I'm doing if I'm GM of this team for 2019.
At the deadline, i'm looking to move Harrison, Freese, Dickerson and Nova, and any of those guys that are unwanted, hopefully moved in the offseason. I think Harrison has value as a utility guy and Nova as potential pitching depth to a contender, but I could see those guys as unmoveable. but perhaps, if you package dickerson with Nova or Harrison you can get a team to take them.
I'm letting Mercer and Rodriguez walk and I'm adding in FA.
I would like the roster to look something like:
C Cervelli $11,500,000
1B Bell $600,000
2B Kramer/Newman $550,000
SS Escobar $15,000,000
3B Moran $600,000
RF Polanco $6,100,000
CF Marte $10,333,334
LF Meadows $550,000
1P Keuchel $25,000,000
2P Taillon $600,000
3P Musgrove $600,000
4P Williams $600,000
5P Kingham $550,000
BN Luplow $550,000
BN Diaz $550,000
BN Frazier $550,000
BN Newman/Kramer $550,000
BN Osuna $550,000
RP Vazquez $4,500,000
RP Crick $550,000
RP Glasnow $550,000
RP Rodriguez $550,000
RP Feliz $1,200,000
RP Santana/Kuhl $550,000
RP Brault $550,000
Total $83,783,334
I don't think Keuchel would be looking at much more than Arrieta, and I think they need to be serious about adding to the top of the rotation, and a lefty would play well at PNC park.
Eduardo Escobar is having a breakout year, I think the big spenders will be lining up for Machado, Harper and Donaldson, so if the Pirates swoop in early with an offer to Escobar, he might choose to sign as opposed to waiting for the Machado runner ups. They are absolutely in a position to add salary, they have compiled a roster of players in their pre-arb years, and none of them are looking at big arbitration pay days.
seems like a good plan to me. We know NH wouldn't do it because a couple players make too high of percentage of total payroll (which is a foolish position).
At the deadline, i'm looking to move Harrison, Freese, Dickerson and Nova, and any of those guys that are unwanted, hopefully moved in the offseason. I think Harrison has value as a utility guy and Nova as potential pitching depth to a contender, but I could see those guys as unmoveable. but perhaps, if you package dickerson with Nova or Harrison you can get a team to take them.
I'm letting Mercer and Rodriguez walk and I'm adding in FA.
I would like the roster to look something like:
C Cervelli $11,500,000
1B Bell $600,000
2B Kramer/Newman $550,000
SS Escobar $15,000,000
3B Moran $600,000
RF Polanco $6,100,000
CF Marte $10,333,334
LF Meadows $550,000
1P Keuchel $25,000,000
2P Taillon $600,000
3P Musgrove $600,000
4P Williams $600,000
5P Kingham $550,000
BN Luplow $550,000
BN Diaz $550,000
BN Frazier $550,000
BN Newman/Kramer $550,000
BN Osuna $550,000
RP Vazquez $4,500,000
RP Crick $550,000
RP Glasnow $550,000
RP Rodriguez $550,000
RP Feliz $1,200,000
RP Santana/Kuhl $550,000
RP Brault $550,000
Total $83,783,334
I don't think Keuchel would be looking at much more than Arrieta, and I think they need to be serious about adding to the top of the rotation, and a lefty would play well at PNC park.
Eduardo Escobar is having a breakout year, I think the big spenders will be lining up for Machado, Harper and Donaldson, so if the Pirates swoop in early with an offer to Escobar, he might choose to sign as opposed to waiting for the Machado runner ups. They are absolutely in a position to add salary, they have compiled a roster of players in their pre-arb years, and none of them are looking at big arbitration pay days.
seems like a good plan to me. We know NH wouldn't do it because a couple players make too high of percentage of total payroll (which is a foolish position).
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
734E505D52585371594E5F59583C0 wrote: Here's what I'm doing if I'm GM of this team for 2019.
At the deadline, i'm looking to move Harrison, Freese, Dickerson and Nova, and any of those guys that are unwanted, hopefully moved in the offseason. I think Harrison has value as a utility guy and Nova as potential pitching depth to a contender, but I could see those guys as unmoveable. but perhaps, if you package dickerson with Nova or Harrison you can get a team to take them.
I'm letting Mercer and Rodriguez walk and I'm adding in FA.
I would like the roster to look something like:
C Cervelli $11,500,000
1B Bell $600,000
2B Kramer/Newman $550,000
SS Escobar $15,000,000
3B Moran $600,000
RF Polanco $6,100,000
CF Marte $10,333,334
LF Meadows $550,000
1P Keuchel $25,000,000
2P Taillon $600,000
3P Musgrove $600,000
4P Williams $600,000
5P Kingham $550,000
BN Luplow $550,000
BN Diaz $550,000
BN Frazier $550,000
BN Newman/Kramer $550,000
BN Osuna $550,000
RP Vazquez $4,500,000
RP Crick $550,000
RP Glasnow $550,000
RP Rodriguez $550,000
RP Feliz $1,200,000
RP Santana/Kuhl $550,000
RP Brault $550,000
Total $83,783,334
I don't think Keuchel would be looking at much more than Arrieta, and I think they need to be serious about adding to the top of the rotation, and a lefty would play well at PNC park.
Eduardo Escobar is having a breakout year, I think the big spenders will be lining up for Machado, Harper and Donaldson, so if the Pirates swoop in early with an offer to Escobar, he might choose to sign as opposed to waiting for the Machado runner ups. They are absolutely in a position to add salary, they have compiled a roster of players in their pre-arb years, and none of them are looking at big arbitration pay days.
I would love to see this approach. Adding Keuchel and Escobar (or other comparable players) to a young core group is a strategy that makes really good sense. I've been advocating signing a top of the rotation starter for the past 3 off-seasons, but sadly this morning in the Athletic Rob Biertempfel posted this quote from Neal Huntington:
“Those type of pitchers — Burnett, Liriano, Volquez — instead of being $4 million to $5 million risks are now $10 million to $15 million risks,” Huntington said. “We’re not able to play in those areas anymore because the risk is above our threshold.”
Then this quote from Hurdle for a capper:
“In a perfect world, everybody would love to bring a Verlander, a (Clayton) Kershaw or a (Madison) Bumgarner into their rotation,” manager Clint Hurdle said. “But for us, that’s not real. We’ve built our model the way we’ve built it..."
Intractable and rigid. It's pretty clear we're not going to see anything like Keuchel or Escobar added to this team no matter how much logic is applied from outside TBMTIB.
At the deadline, i'm looking to move Harrison, Freese, Dickerson and Nova, and any of those guys that are unwanted, hopefully moved in the offseason. I think Harrison has value as a utility guy and Nova as potential pitching depth to a contender, but I could see those guys as unmoveable. but perhaps, if you package dickerson with Nova or Harrison you can get a team to take them.
I'm letting Mercer and Rodriguez walk and I'm adding in FA.
I would like the roster to look something like:
C Cervelli $11,500,000
1B Bell $600,000
2B Kramer/Newman $550,000
SS Escobar $15,000,000
3B Moran $600,000
RF Polanco $6,100,000
CF Marte $10,333,334
LF Meadows $550,000
1P Keuchel $25,000,000
2P Taillon $600,000
3P Musgrove $600,000
4P Williams $600,000
5P Kingham $550,000
BN Luplow $550,000
BN Diaz $550,000
BN Frazier $550,000
BN Newman/Kramer $550,000
BN Osuna $550,000
RP Vazquez $4,500,000
RP Crick $550,000
RP Glasnow $550,000
RP Rodriguez $550,000
RP Feliz $1,200,000
RP Santana/Kuhl $550,000
RP Brault $550,000
Total $83,783,334
I don't think Keuchel would be looking at much more than Arrieta, and I think they need to be serious about adding to the top of the rotation, and a lefty would play well at PNC park.
Eduardo Escobar is having a breakout year, I think the big spenders will be lining up for Machado, Harper and Donaldson, so if the Pirates swoop in early with an offer to Escobar, he might choose to sign as opposed to waiting for the Machado runner ups. They are absolutely in a position to add salary, they have compiled a roster of players in their pre-arb years, and none of them are looking at big arbitration pay days.
I would love to see this approach. Adding Keuchel and Escobar (or other comparable players) to a young core group is a strategy that makes really good sense. I've been advocating signing a top of the rotation starter for the past 3 off-seasons, but sadly this morning in the Athletic Rob Biertempfel posted this quote from Neal Huntington:
“Those type of pitchers — Burnett, Liriano, Volquez — instead of being $4 million to $5 million risks are now $10 million to $15 million risks,” Huntington said. “We’re not able to play in those areas anymore because the risk is above our threshold.”
Then this quote from Hurdle for a capper:
“In a perfect world, everybody would love to bring a Verlander, a (Clayton) Kershaw or a (Madison) Bumgarner into their rotation,” manager Clint Hurdle said. “But for us, that’s not real. We’ve built our model the way we’ve built it..."
Intractable and rigid. It's pretty clear we're not going to see anything like Keuchel or Escobar added to this team no matter how much logic is applied from outside TBMTIB.
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Bobster21
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
Wow, talk about a bleak outlook! In the past few years, the rhetoric has gone from telling us they are determined to build a championship team and will spend when the time is right to telling us the yearly goal is to have a team that projects to win 78-82 games and hope to have a magical, overachieving season for a team that can't even afford reclamation project pitchers. (Never mind that they received that $50 million payout this year from Disney but were the only team not to sign a FA.) I've been thinking that job security for TBMTIB was based on Nutting's unwillingness to admit that the people he hired to turn the organization around were failures. But now it's looking like they have admitted failure and have changed the goal to just trying to eke by each year with a "model" for an inexpensive team that would shock everyone if they were substantially over .500. At least now the 4 year extensions for NH and CH make sense: what's the point of bringing in new people to implement a model for failure?
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
012531393C500 wrote: Here's what I'm doing if I'm GM of this team for 2019.
At the deadline, i'm looking to move Harrison, Freese, Dickerson and Nova, and any of those guys that are unwanted, hopefully moved in the offseason. I think Harrison has value as a utility guy and Nova as potential pitching depth to a contender, but I could see those guys as unmoveable. but perhaps, if you package dickerson with Nova or Harrison you can get a team to take them.
I'm letting Mercer and Rodriguez walk and I'm adding in FA.
I would like the roster to look something like:
C Cervelli $11,500,000
1B Bell $600,000
2B Kramer/Newman $550,000
SS Escobar $15,000,000
3B Moran $600,000
RF Polanco $6,100,000
CF Marte $10,333,334
LF Meadows $550,000
1P Keuchel $25,000,000
2P Taillon $600,000
3P Musgrove $600,000
4P Williams $600,000
5P Kingham $550,000
BN Luplow $550,000
BN Diaz $550,000
BN Frazier $550,000
BN Newman/Kramer $550,000
BN Osuna $550,000
RP Vazquez $4,500,000
RP Crick $550,000
RP Glasnow $550,000
RP Rodriguez $550,000
RP Feliz $1,200,000
RP Santana/Kuhl $550,000
RP Brault $550,000
Total $83,783,334
I don't think Keuchel would be looking at much more than Arrieta, and I think they need to be serious about adding to the top of the rotation, and a lefty would play well at PNC park.
Eduardo Escobar is having a breakout year, I think the big spenders will be lining up for Machado, Harper and Donaldson, so if the Pirates swoop in early with an offer to Escobar, he might choose to sign as opposed to waiting for the Machado runner ups. They are absolutely in a position to add salary, they have compiled a roster of players in their pre-arb years, and none of them are looking at big arbitration pay days.
I would love to see this approach. Adding Keuchel and Escobar (or other comparable players) to a young core group is a strategy that makes really good sense. I've been advocating signing a top of the rotation starter for the past 3 off-seasons, but sadly this morning in the Athletic Rob Biertempfel posted this quote from Neal Huntington:
“Those type of pitchers — Burnett, Liriano, Volquez — instead of being $4 million to $5 million risks are now $10 million to $15 million risks,” Huntington said. “We’re not able to play in those areas anymore because the risk is above our threshold.”
Then this quote from Hurdle for a capper:
“In a perfect world, everybody would love to bring a Verlander, a (Clayton) Kershaw or a (Madison) Bumgarner into their rotation,” manager Clint Hurdle said. “But for us, that’s not real. We’ve built our model the way we’ve built it..."
Intractable and rigid. It's pretty clear we're not going to see anything like Keuchel or Escobar added to this team no matter how much logic is applied from outside TBMTIB.
what Neal and Clint don't admit is that their model doesn't work. Which is why no other team has copied it.
At the deadline, i'm looking to move Harrison, Freese, Dickerson and Nova, and any of those guys that are unwanted, hopefully moved in the offseason. I think Harrison has value as a utility guy and Nova as potential pitching depth to a contender, but I could see those guys as unmoveable. but perhaps, if you package dickerson with Nova or Harrison you can get a team to take them.
I'm letting Mercer and Rodriguez walk and I'm adding in FA.
I would like the roster to look something like:
C Cervelli $11,500,000
1B Bell $600,000
2B Kramer/Newman $550,000
SS Escobar $15,000,000
3B Moran $600,000
RF Polanco $6,100,000
CF Marte $10,333,334
LF Meadows $550,000
1P Keuchel $25,000,000
2P Taillon $600,000
3P Musgrove $600,000
4P Williams $600,000
5P Kingham $550,000
BN Luplow $550,000
BN Diaz $550,000
BN Frazier $550,000
BN Newman/Kramer $550,000
BN Osuna $550,000
RP Vazquez $4,500,000
RP Crick $550,000
RP Glasnow $550,000
RP Rodriguez $550,000
RP Feliz $1,200,000
RP Santana/Kuhl $550,000
RP Brault $550,000
Total $83,783,334
I don't think Keuchel would be looking at much more than Arrieta, and I think they need to be serious about adding to the top of the rotation, and a lefty would play well at PNC park.
Eduardo Escobar is having a breakout year, I think the big spenders will be lining up for Machado, Harper and Donaldson, so if the Pirates swoop in early with an offer to Escobar, he might choose to sign as opposed to waiting for the Machado runner ups. They are absolutely in a position to add salary, they have compiled a roster of players in their pre-arb years, and none of them are looking at big arbitration pay days.
I would love to see this approach. Adding Keuchel and Escobar (or other comparable players) to a young core group is a strategy that makes really good sense. I've been advocating signing a top of the rotation starter for the past 3 off-seasons, but sadly this morning in the Athletic Rob Biertempfel posted this quote from Neal Huntington:
“Those type of pitchers — Burnett, Liriano, Volquez — instead of being $4 million to $5 million risks are now $10 million to $15 million risks,” Huntington said. “We’re not able to play in those areas anymore because the risk is above our threshold.”
Then this quote from Hurdle for a capper:
“In a perfect world, everybody would love to bring a Verlander, a (Clayton) Kershaw or a (Madison) Bumgarner into their rotation,” manager Clint Hurdle said. “But for us, that’s not real. We’ve built our model the way we’ve built it..."
Intractable and rigid. It's pretty clear we're not going to see anything like Keuchel or Escobar added to this team no matter how much logic is applied from outside TBMTIB.
what Neal and Clint don't admit is that their model doesn't work. Which is why no other team has copied it.
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
As my heart sinks yet a bit further in the realization that maybe it really is time to walk away from being a Pirate fan. While I have not lived in PA since 1973 (Alaska and now Maine), I have steadfastly maintained my allegiance to the Pirates.
I did not read the article, but the statements made by both NH and CH are the most succinct yet that the Pirates have chosen not to compete in what is the current financial landscape of baseball. It is an open admission that the (36 year old) Vogelsong's are the best that we can ever hope for on the FA market because anyone who requires more than a 1 or 2 year commitment and more than $5 mil is out of our salary range.
This year the team will not come close to the 2015 standard of a $100 mil payroll, and next year, after they jettison at least Harrison, Mercer and Rodriguez and likely more, the new payroll threshold likely will be $70 - $85 mil. Cleary --- What should the fans expect when they don't flock to the Park to watch the outstanding product assembled on the field in what is arguably the best Park in MLB? It's your (our) fault that the team isn't better.
Sad, very sad.
I did not read the article, but the statements made by both NH and CH are the most succinct yet that the Pirates have chosen not to compete in what is the current financial landscape of baseball. It is an open admission that the (36 year old) Vogelsong's are the best that we can ever hope for on the FA market because anyone who requires more than a 1 or 2 year commitment and more than $5 mil is out of our salary range.
This year the team will not come close to the 2015 standard of a $100 mil payroll, and next year, after they jettison at least Harrison, Mercer and Rodriguez and likely more, the new payroll threshold likely will be $70 - $85 mil. Cleary --- What should the fans expect when they don't flock to the Park to watch the outstanding product assembled on the field in what is arguably the best Park in MLB? It's your (our) fault that the team isn't better.
Sad, very sad.
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Bobster21
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
0A262E292205322434470 wrote: As my heart sinks yet a bit further in the realization that maybe it really is time to walk away from being a Pirate fan. While I have not lived in PA since 1973 (Alaska and now Maine), I have steadfastly maintained my allegiance to the Pirates.
I did not read the article, but the statements made by both NH and CH are the most succinct yet that the Pirates have chosen not to compete in what is the current financial landscape of baseball. It is an open admission that the (36 year old) Vogelsong's are the best that we can ever hope for on the FA market because anyone who requires more than a 1 or 2 year commitment and more than $5 mil is out of our salary range.
This year the team will not come close to the 2015 standard of a $100 mil payroll, and next year, after they jettison at least Harrison, Mercer and Rodriguez and likely more, the new payroll threshold likely will be $70 - $85 mil. Cleary --- What should the fans expect when they don't flock to the Park to watch the outstanding product assembled on the field in what is arguably the best Park in MLB? It's your (our) fault that the team isn't better.
Sad, very sad.
Actually, Vogelsong was 3 months shy of 39 when the 2016 season began. So it's even worse than you thought! :'(
I did not read the article, but the statements made by both NH and CH are the most succinct yet that the Pirates have chosen not to compete in what is the current financial landscape of baseball. It is an open admission that the (36 year old) Vogelsong's are the best that we can ever hope for on the FA market because anyone who requires more than a 1 or 2 year commitment and more than $5 mil is out of our salary range.
This year the team will not come close to the 2015 standard of a $100 mil payroll, and next year, after they jettison at least Harrison, Mercer and Rodriguez and likely more, the new payroll threshold likely will be $70 - $85 mil. Cleary --- What should the fans expect when they don't flock to the Park to watch the outstanding product assembled on the field in what is arguably the best Park in MLB? It's your (our) fault that the team isn't better.
Sad, very sad.
Actually, Vogelsong was 3 months shy of 39 when the 2016 season began. So it's even worse than you thought! :'(
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OrlandoMerced
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
No excuse if they choose to field a sub $80M payroll next year.
They can play the "payroll will rise as young players receive raises", but they need to feel some urgency to win. No reason any fan should have desire to watch a team that's not trying to win.
They can play the "payroll will rise as young players receive raises", but they need to feel some urgency to win. No reason any fan should have desire to watch a team that's not trying to win.
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
As NH and CH sit in the locker room after a game to cue up their new favorite song --- "This magic moment."
That's the only way that their going to win now - Magic - and if the Magic happens, it will only be for a moment because their approach to building a winning team is not sustainable.
That's the only way that their going to win now - Magic - and if the Magic happens, it will only be for a moment because their approach to building a winning team is not sustainable.