O'Neil Cruz at SS

SammyKhalifa · Post by **SammyKhalifa** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:14 pm

574F4D4A4A5D4C4B565741240 wrote: As the system is structured right now, it pays MLB teams to keep players in the minors until they are over-ready. With the six-year control rule in place, the average player often doesn't hit free agency until he's thirty or more - when stats show he's on the downside of his career. I have to think the players association will look at this in the next contract. I would think if a player were declared a free agent at age 24 if he isn't on the ML roster of a team, a lot of players would get "ready" at a younger age.
Wouldn't it be refreshing for the Pirates to think outside the box and try to get players on the team when they can help bring a championship team rather than doing what everyone else is doing except a few teams like the Cardinals. It's time for new leadership. Pittsburg will never be able to compete with big market teams just doing the same old things. The only way we competed was a once in a lifetime player like Cutch coming along no thanks to NH, he just happened to be in the right place at the right time. NH has not shown any ability to judge talent nor coaching staff. I hope I'm wrong but the decision to go with Liriano further shows evidence that he has poor judgement. Liriano has shown he will implode at any moment over the past several years. Why any team would want him at this point in his career is a mystery. Anyone who would trust him in any game shows total lack of judgement.

How do you think a SS that has never played above A ball would "help bring a championship?"

And if that happened that way why does no team do it?

I'm pretty sure Liriano didn't take Cruz's spot on the roster.

I'm not a fan of Liriano either but it's not like there were other awesome options that he replaced (which yes points to bad acquisitions but on the whole the pen is very very good).

IABucFan · Post by **IABucFan** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:37 pm

I actually kind of like the Liriano signing. I felt like he had a good spring, aside from that one outing where he walked four in a row. From where I sit, I think Liriano's job/role this year is to be a LOOGY. At least for this year, you can still have those types of players. And I think it's a wise move to bring in a LOOGY in the division we play in. If Liriano's role is just to come in and get Schwarber, Rizzo, Votto, Yelich, and Carpenter out, then I think that role has some value.

SammyKhalifa · Post by **SammyKhalifa** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:48 pm

I was okay taking a flyer on him but it would have been nice to see someone outperform him at the level he was at this spring. 9.2 ip, 7H 9BB 8K. 9 innings is 9 innings I guess.

skinnyhorse · Post by **skinnyhorse** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:54 pm

5A6864647042616865606F68090 wrote: As the system is structured right now, it pays MLB teams to keep players in the minors until they are over-ready. With the six-year control rule in place, the average player often doesn't hit free agency until he's thirty or more - when stats show he's on the downside of his career. I have to think the players association will look at this in the next contract. I would think if a player were declared a free agent at age 24 if he isn't on the ML roster of a team, a lot of players would get "ready" at a younger age.
Wouldn't it be refreshing for the Pirates to think outside the box and try to get players on the team when they can help bring a championship team rather than doing what everyone else is doing except a few teams like the Cardinals. It's time for new leadership. Pittsburg will never be able to compete with big market teams just doing the same old things. The only way we competed was a once in a lifetime player like Cutch coming along no thanks to NH, he just happened to be in the right place at the right time. NH has not shown any ability to judge talent nor coaching staff. I hope I'm wrong but the decision to go with Liriano further shows evidence that he has poor judgement. Liriano has shown he will implode at any moment over the past several years. Why any team would want him at this point in his career is a mystery. Anyone who would trust him in any game shows total lack of judgement.

How do you think a SS that has never played above A ball would "help bring a championship?"

And if that happened that way why does no team do it?

I'm pretty sure Liriano didn't take Cruz's spot on the roster.

I'm not a fan of Liriano either but it's not like there were other awesome options that he replaced (which yes points to bad acquisitions but on the whole the pen is very very good).
I didn't mean to mislead anyone and I don't think a reasonable person would think I was suggesting bringing up Cruz now instead of putting Liriano on the roster. Don't think anyone should think I know so little about baseball that a infielder should replace a pitcher slot on the roster. I was generalizing about how poor NH evaluation skills are and about how he keeps talented players in the minors to long because of contract advantages. Which leads to players getting stagnated in our bad minor league system. A look by comparisons of the Cardinals organization and the Pirates finds the Cardinals have 5 players on their roster who were born in 1995 or after and the pirates have exactly 0. The Cards are a very successful organization who routinely gets their young players up an contributing much earlier than the Pirates. I suspect their are many organizations who do the same. Perhaps someone who has more time could research this but it's been obvious to me for years.

SCBucco · Post by **SCBucco** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:20 pm

I'm indifferent in what to do with Cruz. The point being, he is a raw talent and was received in a deal for a struggling left handed reliever at the time. What p*sses me off is NH waived Nicascio. He could have gotten something for him that might have done something for Pittsburgh in the future, like the track that Cruz is on.

SammyKhalifa · Post by **SammyKhalifa** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:17 pm

7C646661617667607D7C6A0F0 wrote: As the system is structured right now, it pays MLB teams to keep players in the minors until they are over-ready. With the six-year control rule in place, the average player often doesn't hit free agency until he's thirty or more - when stats show he's on the downside of his career. I have to think the players association will look at this in the next contract. I would think if a player were declared a free agent at age 24 if he isn't on the ML roster of a team, a lot of players would get "ready" at a younger age.
Wouldn't it be refreshing for the Pirates to think outside the box and try to get players on the team when they can help bring a championship team rather than doing what everyone else is doing except a few teams like the Cardinals. It's time for new leadership. Pittsburg will never be able to compete with big market teams just doing the same old things. The only way we competed was a once in a lifetime player like Cutch coming along no thanks to NH, he just happened to be in the right place at the right time. NH has not shown any ability to judge talent nor coaching staff. I hope I'm wrong but the decision to go with Liriano further shows evidence that he has poor judgement. Liriano has shown he will implode at any moment over the past several years. Why any team would want him at this point in his career is a mystery. Anyone who would trust him in any game shows total lack of judgement.

How do you think a SS that has never played above A ball would "help bring a championship?"

And if that happened that way why does no team do it?

I'm pretty sure Liriano didn't take Cruz's spot on the roster.

I'm not a fan of Liriano either but it's not like there were other awesome options that he replaced (which yes points to bad acquisitions but on the whole the pen is very very good).
I didn't mean to mislead anyone and I don't think a reasonable person would think I was suggesting bringing up Cruz now instead of putting Liriano on the roster. Don't think anyone should think I know so little about baseball that a infielder should replace a pitcher slot on the roster. I was generalizing about how poor NH evaluation skills are and about how he keeps talented players in the minors to long because of contract advantages. Which leads to players getting stagnated in our bad minor league system. A look by comparisons of the Cardinals organization and the Pirates finds the Cardinals have 5 players on their roster who were born in 1995 or after and the pirates have exactly 0. The Cards are a very successful organization who routinely gets their young players up an contributing much earlier than the Pirates. I suspect their are many organizations who do the same. Perhaps someone who has more time could research this but it's been obvious to me for years.
Hi skinny,

I'm sorry for my post as going back and reading it was a little sarcastic for no real good reason to you.

I do think people go a little overboard in criticism of the team in some ways-- they deserve it for a lot of things but I think they let that spill over to a lot of things they don't deserve it for. There are probably some cases where we could have brought up guys sooner (but there are also some cases that fans WANTED them to bring someone up sooner but the team was proven right). I just don't think that this is the case with cruz (at least not yet).

IABucFan · Post by **IABucFan** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:09 pm

7E4C40405466454C41444B4C2D0 wrote: As the system is structured right now, it pays MLB teams to keep players in the minors until they are over-ready. With the six-year control rule in place, the average player often doesn't hit free agency until he's thirty or more - when stats show he's on the downside of his career. I have to think the players association will look at this in the next contract. I would think if a player were declared a free agent at age 24 if he isn't on the ML roster of a team, a lot of players would get "ready" at a younger age.
Wouldn't it be refreshing for the Pirates to think outside the box and try to get players on the team when they can help bring a championship team rather than doing what everyone else is doing except a few teams like the Cardinals. It's time for new leadership. Pittsburg will never be able to compete with big market teams just doing the same old things. The only way we competed was a once in a lifetime player like Cutch coming along no thanks to NH, he just happened to be in the right place at the right time. NH has not shown any ability to judge talent nor coaching staff. I hope I'm wrong but the decision to go with Liriano further shows evidence that he has poor judgement. Liriano has shown he will implode at any moment over the past several years. Why any team would want him at this point in his career is a mystery. Anyone who would trust him in any game shows total lack of judgement.

How do you think a SS that has never played above A ball would "help bring a championship?"

And if that happened that way why does no team do it?

I'm pretty sure Liriano didn't take Cruz's spot on the roster.

I'm not a fan of Liriano either but it's not like there were other awesome options that he replaced (which yes points to bad acquisitions but on the whole the pen is very very good).
I didn't mean to mislead anyone and I don't think a reasonable person would think I was suggesting bringing up Cruz now instead of putting Liriano on the roster. Don't think anyone should think I know so little about baseball that a infielder should replace a pitcher slot on the roster. I was generalizing about how poor NH evaluation skills are and about how he keeps talented players in the minors to long because of contract advantages. Which leads to players getting stagnated in our bad minor league system. A look by comparisons of the Cardinals organization and the Pirates finds the Cardinals have 5 players on their roster who were born in 1995 or after and the pirates have exactly 0. The Cards are a very successful organization who routinely gets their young players up an contributing much earlier than the Pirates. I suspect their are many organizations who do the same. Perhaps someone who has more time could research this but it's been obvious to me for years.
Hi skinny,

I'm sorry for my post as going back and reading it was a little sarcastic for no real good reason to you.

I do think people go a little overboard in criticism of the team in some ways-- they deserve it for a lot of things but I think they let that spill over to a lot of things they don't deserve it for. There are probably some cases where we could have brought up guys sooner (but there are also some cases that fans WANTED them to bring someone up sooner but the team was proven right). I just don't think that this is the case with cruz (at least not yet).

This is my recollection as well, with Polanco probably being the most egregious example. If anything, this is more an indictment of our poor drafting and development. NH has yet to produce a star player. You might be able to say Cole, but he blossomed after he left Pittsburgh. Maybe Taillon becomes his "star." But McCutchen was somehow drafted by Littlefield. And he also somehow managed to sign Marte.

I've been a fan of NH, but may patience is starting to wear a little bit thin. This year's team, for instance, in my mind at least, doesn't feature any massive, gaping holes (I'm not convinced that Gonzalez is going to be one at short, but admittedly, he could be). But the 2019 PBC also doesn't feature any star power. Nobody that strikes fear in opposing pitchers. Marte could be that guy. He certainly has the raw talent to be one of the best players in the game. But as yet, he hasn't put it all together. Taillon has the talent to be one of the best pitchers in the game. But, likewise, hasn't put it all together.

Maybe Cruz can become that guy in a few years. Or Hayes. Or Tucker. But for the Pirates to be competitive and actually have a team that can win the division, they need a couple of bonafide superstars on their team. They don't have one this year.

skinnyhorse · Post by **skinnyhorse** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:16 pm

The quickest call up, I can remember was G. Cole. His stint in the minors was one of the shortest in recent memory. He was very successful when he was first called up. Others may have been called up younger but had spent years in the minors. The one guy I remember called up very young was Jose Guillen way back and he did very well was given away, in one of the worst trades in baseball history. Both Hayes and Tucker I believe are worthy of early promotions, Tucker could be the answer to a glaring hole at short stop. The Dodger have 2 guys on their roster that were born in 96 and 2 born in 95. I don't really remember one of our players being called up to young, they may have been called up unprepared but that's more of our minor league system fault (NH). Most of these guys have spent 4 or more years in the minors and still aren't ready, maybe it's time to evaluate our system. Polanco was young but had been in our minors for 5 years, keeping him there longer I don't think would have made him better. Just frustrated to see the poor management of baseball in Pittsburg continue, I want to see a competitive baseball team again, not just a team going through the motions. Quit trying to buy a team quit trying to make moves just to be making moves but get really busy researching young players and hiring the very best coaching and talent evaluators (scouts) around. That's what I remember about the Pirates of old. They developed good young players like Ritchie Hebner, Al Oliver, Willie Stargell, Bob Robertson, Gene Alley, Bob Moose, Bill Robinson, Dave Parker, Bob Veale and on and on. Where are those days, we've resorted to running a business and not a great baseball team. I'm sick and tired of it.

skinnyhorse · Post by **skinnyhorse** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:32 pm

The quickest call up, I can remember was G. Cole. His stint in the minors was one of the shortest in recent memory. He was very successful when he was first called up. Others may have been called up younger but had spent years in the minors. The one guy I remember called up very young was Jose Guillen way back and he did very well was given away, in one of the worst trades in baseball history. Both Hayes and Tucker I believe are worthy of early promotions, Tucker could be the answer to a glaring hole at short stop. The Dodger have 2 guys on their roster that were born in 96 and 2 born in 95. I don't really remember one of our players being called up to young, they may have been called up unprepared but that's more of our minor league system fault (NH). Most of these guys have spent 4 or more years in the minors and still aren't ready, maybe it's time to evaluate our system. Polanco was young but had been in our minors for 5 years, keeping him there longer I don't think would have made him better. Just frustrated to see the poor management of baseball in Pittsburg continue, I want to see a competitive baseball team again, not just a team going through the motions. Quit trying to buy a team quit trying to make moves just to be making moves but get really busy researching young players and hiring the very best coaching and talent evaluators (scouts) around. That's what I remember about the Pirates of old. They developed good young players like Ritchie Hebner, Al Oliver, Willie Stargell, Bob Robertson, Gene Alley, Bob Moose, Bill Robinson, Dave Parker, Bob Veale and on and on. Where are those days, we've resorted to running a business and not a great baseball team. I'm sick and tired of it.

mouse · Post by **mouse** » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:26 pm

Ask Possum to know for sure, but . . . the quickest call-up I know of was Dick Groat. I think he went right from college to the major leagues - and played basketball at the same time.