OnlyBucs

Possum, great point about hoping vs expecting. Every year we watch the Pirates attempt to fill needs with retread pitchers or borderline AAA players or putting a John Jaso at 1B like putting a round peg in a square hole. They tell us that IF such players work out, the team could compete. Meanwhile, their competitors acquire or keep productive players with a proven track record (as opposed to selling them off when they have enough service time to bump up their salaries). The Pirates rely on the hope that players will outperform expectations while their competitors rely of proven players to continue what they've been doing. Hope is not a strategy. But it's a lot more inexpensive that using players you can rely on.

You also know that Huntington Coonelly and Nutting will all use injuries as the excuse this season for why it fell apart which is true to a certain degree but you can’t blame things completely on that you just can’t. Injuries happen to everybody it’s part of the game and you gotta deal with it. My response to TBMTIB if they use the injury excuse would be draft and develop Minor League players better, make better trades to acquire better players if you have injuries and in the offseason, coach better which this team lacks big time I feel in a lot of areas. Lastly, spend some damn money and go out and sign at least 2 maybe even 3 above average Major League pitchers so that if you do have injuries you have depth to overcome them.



This organization and GM and owner do none of the above so this is what you get at the end of the day an organization who will blame injuries and every other thing they can find instead of pointing the finger directly at where the blame should go and that is at themselves. And until this changes none of this other stuff will improve within this organization. It’s an endless cycle that’s a complete death spiral with this team.

Flashing back to April when Tallion, Williams, Musgrove, Archer and Lyles were all walking in sync as a unit across the field and considering themselves the Fab Five.



While injuries clearly have taken a toll on some of their performances, what we now have is a starting rotation that it in tatters.



Tallion - Out for this season and likely most of next season.

Archer - Pitching like a poor #5 starter.

Musgrove - Hit or miss, but likely the best among the original 5.

Williams - Has yet to recover and show last year's form.

Lyles - Unable to make it through 2 innings at the present time.



It's almost like George Pickett looking at the aftermath of his fateful charge at Gettysburg and asking --- 'What happened to my boys?'



This team has shown some brief flashes of being able to compete and I have temporarily allowed myself to get swept up by what could be possible, and not admitting that what I was looking at was a mirage.



The current team is not competitive. No starting pitching. A great closer but limited other talent in the pen. Some good and promising young hitters, but not enough power and rarely enough consistency among the hitters to compete day in and day out. A defense that has too many suspects. A manager who appears content to simply take the field every day.



The current state of this team is crying out for change. But, we have an owner who is not willing to spend the revenues the franchise collects to address the current and systemic problems.



First, I doubt there is any likelihood that either NH or CH goes anywhere because they are still under contract. Why would anyone believe Nutting would absorb the cost of firing 2 folks under contract and bringing in a new manager and GM?



Two, this team is doomed next year when it comes to starting pitching. Keller does not appear to be a savior. Tallion is out. Kuhl, even if he makes it back, appears to be more of a reliever than a starter. Perhaps Williams rebounds, but he also could sink into the world of a marginal starter. Maybe Musgrove develops more consistency. Maybe Archer rebounds, but after what will now be his 4th year in a row of sub-par performance, that does not seem likely. At present, with Nutting's unwillingness to spend, Shuck may be our best hope for new starting pitching next year.



Three, the pen. NH can point to shrewd deal to ink Vasquez to a cheap long-term contract as a moment of brilliance, and how he bilked S.F. of Crick, signed Rodriguez off the scrap-heap and added Liriano when no one else wanted him and declare that he knows how to build a pen. But, I have watched nearly every game this year. I have watched the pen underperform time and time again. The current pen has some strengths, it just doesn't have enough of them. And, good relievers are now expensive and every team is trolling for the same type of pitcher that NH is. For example, just look at the transactions that the Dodgers and Yankees continue to make. Maybe the Bucs get lucky and Santana, Burdi and Kuhl all return next year and pitch well, and Rodriguez continues to pitch acceptably. Then again, that is a lot of wishing.



Four, the starting line-up. Too much of this year's initial success now appears to be tied to the unexpected super-human performance of Bell who has now clearly fallen into a pit. The Bucs have some talent, but they don't have as much as other teams. And, I have little confidence that NH can turn some of the current players that should be moved before the deadline, and some players that should be moved this off-season (Marte, because he is one of your only valuable chips) into the replacement talent that you need to compete.



When the streak was at its worst, I was hoping for a winning season. Yeah, I was so desperate, I was willing to settle.



And, while I have often supported NH, his repeated refrain about how our goal is a championship, rings so hollow that it is reminiscent of watching Bull Durham and having Costner school Tim Robbins on the lines he needs to udder upon reaching the major leagues. Simply stated, NH, if he remains, must find a way to move this team from the talking points to the most important action point --- winning.

4E626A6D6641766070030 wrote: Flashing back to April when Tallion, Williams, Musgrove, Archer and Lyles were all walking in sync as a unit across the field and considering themselves the Fab Five.



While injuries clearly have taken a toll on some of their performances, what we now have is a starting rotation that it in tatters. 



Tallion - Out for this season and likely most of next season.

Archer - Pitching like a poor #5 starter.

Musgrove - Hit or miss, but likely the best among the original 5.

Williams - Has yet to recover and show last year's form.

Lyles - Unable to make it through 2 innings at the present time.



It's almost like George Pickett looking at the aftermath of his fateful charge at Gettysburg and asking --- 'What happened to my boys?'



This team has shown some brief flashes of being able to compete and I have temporarily allowed myself to get swept up by what could be possible, and not admitting that what I was looking at was a mirage. 



The current team is not competitive.  No starting pitching.  A great closer but limited other talent in the pen. Some good and promising young hitters, but not enough power and rarely enough consistency among the hitters to compete day in and day out.  A defense that has too many suspects.  A manager who appears content to simply take the field every day.



The current state of this team is crying out for change.  But, we have an owner who is not willing to spend the revenues the franchise collects to address the current and systemic problems.



First, I doubt there is any likelihood that either NH or CH goes anywhere because they are still under contract.  Why would anyone believe Nutting would absorb the cost of firing 2 folks under contract and bringing in a new manager and GM?



Two, this team is doomed next year when it comes to starting pitching.   Keller does not appear to be a savior.  Tallion is out.  Kuhl, even if he makes it back, appears to be more of a reliever than a starter.  Perhaps Williams rebounds, but he also could sink into the world of a marginal starter.  Maybe Musgrove develops more consistency.  Maybe Archer rebounds, but after what will now be his 4th year in a row of sub-par performance, that does not seem likely.  At present, with Nutting's unwillingness to spend, Shuck may be our best hope for new starting pitching next year.



Three, the pen.  NH can point to shrewd deal to ink Vasquez to a cheap long-term contract as a moment of brilliance, and how he bilked S.F. of Crick, signed Rodriguez off the scrap-heap and added Liriano when no one else wanted him and declare that he knows how to build a pen.  But, I have watched nearly every game this year.  I have watched the pen underperform time and time again.  The current pen has some strengths, it just doesn't have enough of them.  And, good relievers are now expensive and every team is trolling for the same type of pitcher that NH is.  For example, just look at the transactions that the Dodgers and Yankees continue to make.  Maybe the Bucs get lucky and Santana, Burdi and Kuhl all return next year and pitch well, and Rodriguez continues to pitch acceptably.  Then again, that is a lot of wishing.



Four, the starting line-up.  Too much of this year's initial success now appears to be tied to the unexpected super-human performance of Bell who has now clearly fallen into a pit.  The Bucs have some talent, but they don't have as much as other teams.  And, I have little confidence that NH can turn some of the current players that should be moved before the deadline, and some players that should be moved this off-season (Marte, because he is one of your only valuable chips) into the replacement talent that you need to compete.



When the streak was at its worst, I was hoping for a winning season.  Yeah, I was so desperate, I was willing to settle.



And, while I have often supported NH, his repeated refrain about how our goal is a championship, rings so hollow that it is reminiscent of watching Bull Durham and having Costner school Tim Robbins on the lines he needs to udder upon reaching the major leagues. Simply stated, NH, if he remains, must find a way to move this team from the talking points to the most important action point --- winning.   


great post

At the beginning of the season some were calling the rotation one of MLB's best. Wishful thinking.



Tallion - He was very good last year and expectations were high for 2019.

Archer - He had declined the previous 3 seasons.

Musgrove - Showed enough last year to raise expectations this year but not a proven thing.

Williams - Unexpectedly dominant last year and no one knew how or if he could repeat it this year.

Lyles - Barely made the team as #5 after being rescued from scrap heap.



It turns out that was mostly wishful thinking.



Tallion - Hurt again.

Archer - Still declining.

Musgrove - Never developed consistency.

Williams - Couldn't come close to repeating last year.

Lyles - Unlikely to make it through the season in the rotation.



Other than Taillon, optimism for this rotation was based on hope. Hope that Archer would regain the effectiveness he hasn't shown in 3 (going on 4) years. Hope that Musgrove, who hasn't yet, would develop into a consistently reliable starter. Hope that Williams would repeat his inexplicable success of 2018. Hope that Lyles wouldn't be as bad as some feared. For a team that alleges it wants to compete for a championship, they place a lot of emphasis on hope.

5D707D6C6B7A6D2D2E1F0 wrote: At the beginning of the season some were calling the rotation one of MLB's best. Wishful thinking.



Tallion - He was very good last year and expectations were high for 2019.

Archer - He had declined the previous 3 seasons.

Musgrove - Showed enough last year to raise expectations this year but not a proven thing.

Williams - Unexpectedly dominant last year and no one knew how or if he could repeat it this year.

Lyles - Barely made the team as #5 after being rescued from scrap heap.



It turns out that was mostly wishful thinking.



Tallion - Hurt again.

Archer - Still declining.

Musgrove - Never developed consistency.

Williams - Couldn't come close to repeating last year.

Lyles - Unlikely to make it through the season in the rotation.



Other than Taillon, optimism for this rotation was based on hope. Hope that Archer would regain the effectiveness he hasn't shown in 3 (going on 4) years. Hope that Musgrove, who hasn't yet, would develop into a consistently reliable starter. Hope that Williams would repeat his inexplicable success of 2018.  Hope that Lyles wouldn't be as bad as some feared. For a team that alleges it wants to compete for a championship, they place a lot of emphasis on hope.


Also, each starter has spent a solid amount of time on the disabled list. It seems to me that starting pitching in this day and age is predicated on pattern and schedule. That process begins on the first day that pitchers and catchers report. I have to think that time spent on the disabled list really messes up that season rhythm. While your analysis is accurate for each of the five, it doesn't acknowledge that injuries have been a big part of each of those pitchers' stories this year. I would argue that the injury issues puts a hesitation on drawing too much analysis from the results of this year...especially up to this point.



That group has missed 25% of the Pirates starts this year. That is a pretty big number. Though, I thought that number would be higher. That number also doesn't include the many starts where those 5 have later admitted that they weren't in good form or feeling well (every start for Taillon).

Like Bobster said the Pirates relied on hope too much with all 5 of these starters and hope isn’t going to get you to the playoffs more times then not. Other then Taillon and Williams being injured the other three Archer, Musgrove and Lyles have been fairly healthy for the most part this season and all three guys body of work for the season has simply not been good enough. Musgrove has been okay but he is no better then maybe a 4 or 5 starter on a very good team, Archer has not been very good at all and continues to not get better but worse, and Lyles while he had success early in the season we knew at some point he would probably pitch like we expected him too. The bottom line is it’s just not good enough. And when it’s not good enough that falls on the GM, president and owner doing more. Develop and draft better players in the Minors, make better trades, coach better, and for the owner to spend some more money and get better pitching that will allow you to win more games because like I just stated what they have right now is just not good enough.