OnlyBucs

I think it's possible NH could build a competitive team with another payroll approaching average. Altho since that time, his drafting and trading seems to have suffered so that would have to improve. But there are some good players on the team now. They just don't seem willing to fill the remaining holes with adequate players.

210C01101706115152630 wrote:

Just my opinion but I believe that when he saw the price tag on being a legit contender (a modest payroll by most MLB standards), Nutting decided to reduce his financial commitment and his mgt team would have to deal with the resulting decline in talent. I'm sure he would rather win than lose but he made a decision to slash payroll so losing is to be expected.       


There has to be something else going on here. It's not that I disagree with this -- for all I know, this could be true. But I'm fascinated by what Nutting and/or Huntington decided (or didn't...) after the 2015 season. I see a few options (which aren't mutually exclusive):



- Ride the coattails of three consecutive playoff appearances, trim costs (trading Neil Walker for Jon Niese, Charlie Morton for a piece of flotsam, among other barf-tastic moves), and hope the core that just won 98 games can make another wild card game somehow;



- Become horrified at what Chicago put together, realize the Pirates had no shot at winning anything in the same division as the Cubs for several years, and just quietly let the team float on as is;



- Realize they didn't make as much money as they'd hoped from three straight playoff appearances and so decided to cut costs from here on out until they could clear the books of some uncomfortable contracts;



- Get caught in some weird no-man's land of trying to pretend to compete half-heartedly for a wild card but meanwhile not really doing much to add assets to the club either at the major league level or in the minors and just start wishin' and hopin' and thinkin' and prayin' that the bottom doesn't drop out.



(Narrator voice:) The bottom dropped out.



After 2016, with the Cubs the darling of the universe, the Cardinals and Brewers strong teams, and the Pirates going nowhere, it seems somewhat obvious that Huntington should have been decisive in going through a painful reboot to get back into the mix by the end of the decade.



After all, we were promised to "compete" every year. This was a new era in Pirates baseball, where the team was always supposed to be in the middle at worst, no longer a doormat. If you can't get over the mountain one year, then there's a tactical retreat, you re-load, and start climbing again. No more 20 years of irrelevance.



Now it seems like the mountain ice got more slippery, Huntington is back at the base camp wheezing in the oxygen tent, and Nutting let all the Sherpas wander off.



Perhaps Kang's mishap with those traffic bollards completely knocked the front office off its pins. Perhaps they assumed the glow of being in the postseason wouldn't fade amongst fans as fast as it did (the Pens and Steelers meanwhile playing in championship games probably didn't help). Perhaps they expected more out of what they had. Perhaps they just curled into the fetal position after those wild card losses and just made money. Nevertheless, while everyone in the organization was pretty much rowing in the same direction before 2015, the oars are now rotten and they've been adrift since.



I wonder what would have happened if they'd just come right out and said, "we need to rebuild." At least that would have been a plan. The plan now is to scapegoat Hurdle, spend even less, slum around for others' table scraps, and draft at #7.



I need to go now and work on my Y2K compliance, since it's 1999 again.

Wiffleball Hero, those are all reasonable theories. What's most problematic to me is that the 98 win team of 2015 only needed a couple--but significant--changes. An improvement over Alvarez at 1B was needed. Burnett was retiring. Happ had turned his career around under Searage and was due for free agency. And Locke and Morton remained problematic starters. TBMTIB had promised to increase spending when the time was right and this was it! Record attendance in 2015 and a team that had arrived with the 2nd best record in MLB.



But instead of upgrading at 1B, they downgraded with Jaso, a back up catcher with little power and little experience at 1B. He received 1.5 million less than what Alvarez received in 2015. Although Burnett was retiring, no serious effort was made to keep Happ who went 20-4 the next year with Toronto. The Pirates traded Walker to fill the Burnett/Happ hole with Niese who had a history of mediocrity with the Mets. What made them think a pitcher with Niese's unimpressive history would improve the pitching? Was it just coincidence that Niese's 2016 salary (9 mil) was not a big upgrade over Walker's 2015 salary (8 mil)? Replacing Morton in the rotation didn't upset many fans. He was always struggling. But replacing him with 38 year old, over the hill Ryan Vogelsong was a clear downgrade. But Vogelsong came cheap (2 mil). He was so bad he was temporarily beaten out in ST by Nicasio, who was signed to be a reliever. And the cringeworthy Locke was kept in the rotation. And it didn't help that Cole was not very effective and then hurt. Or that Liriano was ineffective. And the same team that promised to spend when the time was right, gave up 2 of their top 10 prospects at the time to get Toronto to take over all of Liriano's contract and released Nicasio in September to save $600,000.



So in a season when "the time was right" to add a little salary to make a strong team even stronger, the priority seemed to have clearly shifted from trying to win to trying not to spend, and the moves that were made were clear downgrades with no chance whatsoever to keep the team at the level it had achieved the year before. After 2015, the plug was pulled.

I'm still puzzled at the source of Nutting's wealth. (Outside of cashing MLB media and Sportsnet checks.)



I know he owns some newspapers, but that's a dying business. A couple of years ago, Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post (one of the highest profile newspapers in the US) for $250 million, a fraction of the value of the Bucs. And Seven Springs isn't exactly Disney World.

597479686F7E69292A1B0 wrote: Wiffleball Hero, those are all reasonable theories. What's most problematic to me is that the 98 win team of 2015 only needed a couple--but significant--changes. An improvement over Alvarez at 1B was needed. Burnett was retiring. Happ had turned his career around under Searage and was due for free agency. And Locke and Morton remained problematic starters. TBMTIB had promised to increase spending when the time was right and this was it! Record attendance in 2015 and a team that had arrived with the 2nd best record in MLB.



But instead of upgrading at 1B, they downgraded with Jaso, a back up catcher with little power and little experience at 1B. He received 1.5 million less than what Alvarez received in 2015. Although Burnett was retiring, no serious effort was made to keep Happ who went 20-4 the next year with Toronto. The Pirates traded Walker to fill the Burnett/Happ hole with Niese who had a history of mediocrity with the Mets. What made them think a pitcher with Niese's unimpressive history would improve the pitching? Was it just coincidence that Niese's 2016 salary (9 mil) was not a big upgrade over Walker's 2015 salary (8 mil)? Replacing Morton in the rotation didn't upset many fans. He was always struggling. But replacing him with 38 year old, over the hill Ryan Vogelsong was a clear downgrade. But Vogelsong came cheap (2 mil). He was so bad he was temporarily beaten out in ST by Nicasio, who was signed to be a reliever. And the cringeworthy Locke was kept in the rotation. And it didn't help that Cole was not very effective and then hurt. Or that Liriano was ineffective. And the  same team that promised to spend when the time was right, gave up 2 of their top 10 prospects at the time to get Toronto to take over all of Liriano's contract and released Nicasio in September to save $600,000.



So in a season when "the time was right" to add a little salary to make a strong team even stronger, the priority seemed to have clearly shifted from trying to win to trying not to spend, and the moves that were made were clear downgrades with no chance whatsoever to keep the team at the level it had achieved the year before. After 2015, the plug was pulled.    


Wiffleball Hero offers possible reasons why the Pirates took this route, but whatever the reason there is zero doubt the Pirates we’re trying to cut costs. It’s one thing to shoot for the moon and miss, it’s another thing to not really try and claim you did.



Itemizing the pitching turnover, looking back, is nothing short of disgusting.



I wonder how Nutting would feel if his newspaper employees gave half effort? Probably fire everyone of them. But that’s all he’s giving. Or maybe no effort.



2016 is also the year Neal started taking shots at the fans. Claimed KC was All Aboard, lauding KC fans while taking shots at Pirate fans. This coming off 2.5 million fans and they had a realistic chance to push towards 2.75 or higher in 2016. And those KC fans? Over a five year period or so through 2015 I believe KC drew more fans one time. The Pirates drew far more fans over that span.



So for all the questions there hang over this franchise the biggest mystery to me is what in the world could they have been thinking to attack fans at that time? It stunk. It still stinks.

Have to say this about 7 Springs and Hidden Valley Resorts. Nutting owns them both and they are real moneymakers. Skiing is a big business around here. They draw folks from Baltimore and the DC area for skiing trips and for the most part, both places are first-class resorts. 7 Springs also has some nice stuff going on in the summer both for adults and kids.

717660686671363A43646E626A6F2D606C6E030 wrote: Wiffleball Hero, those are all reasonable theories. What's most problematic to me is that the 98 win team of 2015 only needed a couple--but significant--changes. An improvement over Alvarez at 1B was needed. Burnett was retiring. Happ had turned his career around under Searage and was due for free agency. And Locke and Morton remained problematic starters. TBMTIB had promised to increase spending when the time was right and this was it! Record attendance in 2015 and a team that had arrived with the 2nd best record in MLB.



But instead of upgrading at 1B, they downgraded with Jaso, a back up catcher with little power and little experience at 1B. He received 1.5 million less than what Alvarez received in 2015. Although Burnett was retiring, no serious effort was made to keep Happ who went 20-4 the next year with Toronto. The Pirates traded Walker to fill the Burnett/Happ hole with Niese who had a history of mediocrity with the Mets. What made them think a pitcher with Niese's unimpressive history would improve the pitching? Was it just coincidence that Niese's 2016 salary (9 mil) was not a big upgrade over Walker's 2015 salary (8 mil)? Replacing Morton in the rotation didn't upset many fans. He was always struggling. But replacing him with 38 year old, over the hill Ryan Vogelsong was a clear downgrade. But Vogelsong came cheap (2 mil). He was so bad he was temporarily beaten out in ST by Nicasio, who was signed to be a reliever. And the cringeworthy Locke was kept in the rotation. And it didn't help that Cole was not very effective and then hurt. Or that Liriano was ineffective. And the  same team that promised to spend when the time was right, gave up 2 of their top 10 prospects at the time to get Toronto to take over all of Liriano's contract and released Nicasio in September to save $600,000.



So in a season when "the time was right" to add a little salary to make a strong team even stronger, the priority seemed to have clearly shifted from trying to win to trying not to spend, and the moves that were made were clear downgrades with no chance whatsoever to keep the team at the level it had achieved the year before. After 2015, the plug was pulled.    


Wiffleball Hero offers possible reasons why the Pirates took this route, but whatever the reason there is zero doubt the Pirates we’re trying to cut costs.  It’s one thing to shoot for the moon and miss, it’s another thing to not really try and claim you did. 



Itemizing the pitching turnover, looking back, is nothing short of disgusting.



I wonder how Nutting would feel if his newspaper employees gave half effort?  Probably fire everyone of them. But that’s all he’s giving. Or maybe no effort. 



2016 is also the year Neal started taking shots at the fans. Claimed KC was All Aboard, lauding KC fans while taking shots at Pirate fans. This coming off 2.5 million fans and they had a realistic chance to push towards 2.75 or higher in 2016.  And those KC fans?  Over a five year period or so through 2015 I believe KC drew more fans one time. The Pirates drew far more fans over that span.



So for all the questions there hang over this franchise the biggest mystery to me is what in the world could they have been thinking to attack fans at that time?  It stunk.  It still stinks.   
I think the reason is clear. BN, FC and NH had duped the fans by lying that spending would increase when the time was right. But when they were still only at 77% of the MLB average payroll, were coming off a great year in which they had the 2nd best record in MLB and set the franchise attendance record, and now had a few significant holes to fill to become even stronger, there was to be no significant increase in spending. And not only was there to be no real increase, but a drastic slashing of payroll was just around the corner. There was to be no effort to maintain a winning team unless NH and CH could do it with spit and prayer. This of course was going to draw the ire of the fan base who finally had an outstanding team, had provided record attendance revenue and fully expected TBMTIB to come thru on the promise to spend "when the time was right." Because 2016 was the ideal time. Everything--the roster, the revenue and the promise to spend at such a time--had all fallen into place. But now the fans were going to see that they had been lied to. So NH's official spin was not going to be an admission that now that the time was right, Nutting changed his mid about spending. The best defense is a good offense. So NH went on the offense against the fans. It was the fans' fault that spending was not going to increase. It has always been one of NH's duties to embarrass himself with absurd explanations to protect his boss.

745954454253440407360 wrote: Wiffleball Hero, those are all reasonable theories. What's most problematic to me is that the 98 win team of 2015 only needed a couple--but significant--changes. An improvement over Alvarez at 1B was needed. Burnett was retiring. Happ had turned his career around under Searage and was due for free agency. And Locke and Morton remained problematic starters. TBMTIB had promised to increase spending when the time was right and this was it! Record attendance in 2015 and a team that had arrived with the 2nd best record in MLB.



But instead of upgrading at 1B, they downgraded with Jaso, a back up catcher with little power and little experience at 1B. He received 1.5 million less than what Alvarez received in 2015. Although Burnett was retiring, no serious effort was made to keep Happ who went 20-4 the next year with Toronto. The Pirates traded Walker to fill the Burnett/Happ hole with Niese who had a history of mediocrity with the Mets. What made them think a pitcher with Niese's unimpressive history would improve the pitching? Was it just coincidence that Niese's 2016 salary (9 mil) was not a big upgrade over Walker's 2015 salary (8 mil)? Replacing Morton in the rotation didn't upset many fans. He was always struggling. But replacing him with 38 year old, over the hill Ryan Vogelsong was a clear downgrade. But Vogelsong came cheap (2 mil). He was so bad he was temporarily beaten out in ST by Nicasio, who was signed to be a reliever. And the cringeworthy Locke was kept in the rotation. And it didn't help that Cole was not very effective and then hurt. Or that Liriano was ineffective. And the  same team that promised to spend when the time was right, gave up 2 of their top 10 prospects at the time to get Toronto to take over all of Liriano's contract and released Nicasio in September to save $600,000.



So in a season when "the time was right" to add a little salary to make a strong team even stronger, the priority seemed to have clearly shifted from trying to win to trying not to spend, and the moves that were made were clear downgrades with no chance whatsoever to keep the team at the level it had achieved the year before. After 2015, the plug was pulled.    


Wiffleball Hero offers possible reasons why the Pirates took this route, but whatever the reason there is zero doubt the Pirates we’re trying to cut costs.  It’s one thing to shoot for the moon and miss, it’s another thing to not really try and claim you did. 



Itemizing the pitching turnover, looking back, is nothing short of disgusting.



I wonder how Nutting would feel if his newspaper employees gave half effort?  Probably fire everyone of them. But that’s all he’s giving. Or maybe no effort. 



2016 is also the year Neal started taking shots at the fans. Claimed KC was All Aboard, lauding KC fans while taking shots at Pirate fans. This coming off 2.5 million fans and they had a realistic chance to push towards 2.75 or higher in 2016.  And those KC fans?  Over a five year period or so through 2015 I believe KC drew more fans one time. The Pirates drew far more fans over that span.



So for all the questions there hang over this franchise the biggest mystery to me is what in the world could they have been thinking to attack fans at that time?  It stunk.  It still stinks.   
I think the reason is clear. BN, FC and NH had duped the fans by lying that spending would increase when the time was right. But when they were still only at 77% of the MLB average payroll, were coming off a great year in which they had the 2nd best record in MLB and set the franchise attendance record, and now had a few significant holes to fill to become even stronger, there was to be no significant increase in spending. And not only was there to be no real increase, but a drastic slashing of payroll was just around the corner. There was to be no effort to maintain a winning team unless NH and CH could do it with spit and prayer. This of course was going to draw the ire of the fan base who finally had an outstanding team, had provided record attendance revenue and fully expected TBMTIB to come thru on the promise to spend "when the time was right." Because 2016 was the ideal time. Everything--the roster, the revenue and the promise to spend at such a time--had all fallen into place. But now the fans were going to see that they had been lied to. So NH's official spin was not going to be an admission that now that the time was right, Nutting changed his mid about spending. The best defense is a good offense. So NH went on the offense against the fans. It was the fans' fault that spending was not going to increase. It has always been one of NH's duties to embarrass himself with absurd explanations to protect his boss.   






Bobster - I think you nailed it. Here’s a word for you: if you’re take is correct, and it sounds like the only explanation, that is evil. Seriously. Evil stuff.

577A77666170672724150 wrote: Wiffleball Hero, those are all reasonable theories. What's most problematic to me is that the 98 win team of 2015 only needed a couple--but significant--changes. An improvement over Alvarez at 1B was needed. Burnett was retiring. Happ had turned his career around under Searage and was due for free agency. And Locke and Morton remained problematic starters. TBMTIB had promised to increase spending when the time was right and this was it! Record attendance in 2015 and a team that had arrived with the 2nd best record in MLB.



But instead of upgrading at 1B, they downgraded with Jaso, a back up catcher with little power and little experience at 1B. He received 1.5 million less than what Alvarez received in 2015. Although Burnett was retiring, no serious effort was made to keep Happ who went 20-4 the next year with Toronto. The Pirates traded Walker to fill the Burnett/Happ hole with Niese who had a history of mediocrity with the Mets. What made them think a pitcher with Niese's unimpressive history would improve the pitching? Was it just coincidence that Niese's 2016 salary (9 mil) was not a big upgrade over Walker's 2015 salary (8 mil)? Replacing Morton in the rotation didn't upset many fans. He was always struggling. But replacing him with 38 year old, over the hill Ryan Vogelsong was a clear downgrade. But Vogelsong came cheap (2 mil). He was so bad he was temporarily beaten out in ST by Nicasio, who was signed to be a reliever. And the cringeworthy Locke was kept in the rotation. And it didn't help that Cole was not very effective and then hurt. Or that Liriano was ineffective. And the  same team that promised to spend when the time was right, gave up 2 of their top 10 prospects at the time to get Toronto to take over all of Liriano's contract and released Nicasio in September to save $600,000.



So in a season when "the time was right" to add a little salary to make a strong team even stronger, the priority seemed to have clearly shifted from trying to win to trying not to spend, and the moves that were made were clear downgrades with no chance whatsoever to keep the team at the level it had achieved the year before. After 2015, the plug was pulled.    


Wiffleball Hero offers possible reasons why the Pirates took this route, but whatever the reason there is zero doubt the Pirates we’re trying to cut costs.  It’s one thing to shoot for the moon and miss, it’s another thing to not really try and claim you did. 



Itemizing the pitching turnover, looking back, is nothing short of disgusting.



I wonder how Nutting would feel if his newspaper employees gave half effort?  Probably fire everyone of them. But that’s all he’s giving. Or maybe no effort. 



2016 is also the year Neal started taking shots at the fans. Claimed KC was All Aboard, lauding KC fans while taking shots at Pirate fans. This coming off 2.5 million fans and they had a realistic chance to push towards 2.75 or higher in 2016.  And those KC fans?  Over a five year period or so through 2015 I believe KC drew more fans one time. The Pirates drew far more fans over that span.



So for all the questions there hang over this franchise the biggest mystery to me is what in the world could they have been thinking to attack fans at that time?  It stunk.  It still stinks.   
I think the reason is clear. BN, FC and NH had duped the fans by lying that spending would increase when the time was right. But when they were still only at 77% of the MLB average payroll, were coming off a great year in which they had the 2nd best record in MLB and set the franchise attendance record, and now had a few significant holes to fill to become even stronger, there was to be no significant increase in spending. And not only was there to be no real increase, but a drastic slashing of payroll was just around the corner. There was to be no effort to maintain a winning team unless NH and CH could do it with spit and prayer. This of course was going to draw the ire of the fan base who finally had an outstanding team, had provided record attendance revenue and fully expected TBMTIB to come thru on the promise to spend "when the time was right." Because 2016 was the ideal time. Everything--the roster, the revenue and the promise to spend at such a time--had all fallen into place. But now the fans were going to see that they had been lied to. So NH's official spin was not going to be an admission that now that the time was right, Nutting changed his mid about spending. The best defense is a good offense. So NH went on the offense against the fans. It was the fans' fault that spending was not going to increase. It has always been one of NH's duties to embarrass himself with absurd explanations to protect his boss.   






I agree with this. At one point I think NH thought he could win. Somewhere along the line he sold his soul either to maintain his position as a gm or his salary. He is an enabler and deserves no respect. If he really wanted to win and thought he could do so he would go to another team.



Now he is going to take the money as long as he can get it.



In a lot of ways it is a sad story,