6F7256545A3F0 wrote:
I think your very first point is one that I really want to give space for. There are certainly reasons for negativity and cynicism. I don't share it, but I get it. And I think it's totally justified even though I don't share it.
Good! Don't become a cynic about the Pirates. It's baseball, not the interstate commerce clause or the Compromise of 1877. Cynics are boring and probably have bad breath. Being cynical about the Pirates was essentially the only acceptable attitude to have, particularly throughout 2008 to 2010 when Huntington was getting his footing (using Littlefield's scouts -- cue sad trombone sound). When he (Huntington) built a contending team, the cynics either changed the subject, mumbled about gilding the lily, or retreated to their foxholes, biding their time. They became irrelevant for a while, and the cynics of today will too...eventually. They may even be a little right. But they'll still need a mint.
Note that cynicism is not the same as being critical. (Or even vexed, perturbed or chagrined.) The latter makes you a smart baseball fan who impresses your friends and wows your coworkers. The former makes you donate your signed McCutchen jersey to Goodwill and yell mild obscenities at Buffalo Wild Wings when you pass by because its sign is black and gold.
Outlook and age
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
Outlook and age
614D4542496E594F5F2C0 wrote: I would lump myself in the category of 'older fans' (older, not old) as I will soon be starting the decade of my 70's.
I feel fortunate to have seen Clemente play, and to see the early teams of the 70's (before I moved to Alaska where I didn't see any baseball until the advent of superstations, and then it was the Cubs and Braves).
Although the structure of baseball up through the 60's and early 70's was grossly unfair to players, there was a lot of comfort in knowing that your idols would remain with the team you were rooting for unless they were traded. Free agency, whether it be good or bad for the overall game of baseball, has been particularly cruel to Pirate fans because none of the team's owners ever provided their GM's the resources to bring in new high quality talent through free agency or to retain many of the local stars.
Like most, I have adjusted to the realities of free agency, arbitration, high payroll teams, and the need (particularly for low revenue teams) to look at baseball in the terms of windows of opportunity. The Pirates experienced one of those windows in the late 80's - early 90's, and didn't see another real window until Cutch shined as a superstar. During the many years in between I pinned my hopes on the farm system delivering more talent to add to the core of Kendall-Giles-Ramirez (it didn't), or a pitching staff of Duke, Perez, Snell, and others maturing into a regularly productive rotation (evaporated before it really happened).
So --- with what I take as your basic question. Is my judgment clouded by my age; meaning that I want to see a winner now because I fear my death. No.
I want the Pirate GM to identify and implement a real plan that has a chance of restoring the team to a bundle of winning seasons in which it has multiple chances to win a division series and even a World Series. The GM's job is made nearly impossible by an owner who flatly has refused to spend, even when a reasonable short-term investment of another $15 mil or so could have extended the team's opportunity to win by another season or two. My current hope is that BC can pull this off; be it 2023 or 2024, recognizing that 2021 and 2022 (at a minimum) likely will feature some really bad baseball and lousy team records.
If I were a Yankee, Dodger, Red Sox, or Philly fan, the above Pirate approach would be unacceptable to me because those teams have the financial resources to make both good and bad decisions. But, as a Pirate fan, I know that the owner treats nickels the way other owners treat thousands of dollars, and that the only way forward for the current team is to break it down, acquire as many prospects (and suspects) as possible, and to then hope that a core emerges and leads the team to a streak of winning seasons.
Nicely put. I'm mostly with you however ever now and then I get depressed to think we have to wait 3 years to see a real team. Just hope Cherington has built a management team that can evalute real talent. Joe Brown may have been the last GM who could really evaluate talent. The others just seem to add guys and ever now and then they would find a jewel but it was pure luck. I don't want to count on luck, I want the odds in our favor that some of these guys turn out. We'll see soon if our new GM is lucky or really knows what he's doing. That is, we need to have some consistency in bringing up talent every year not every 5 years someone shows up.
I feel fortunate to have seen Clemente play, and to see the early teams of the 70's (before I moved to Alaska where I didn't see any baseball until the advent of superstations, and then it was the Cubs and Braves).
Although the structure of baseball up through the 60's and early 70's was grossly unfair to players, there was a lot of comfort in knowing that your idols would remain with the team you were rooting for unless they were traded. Free agency, whether it be good or bad for the overall game of baseball, has been particularly cruel to Pirate fans because none of the team's owners ever provided their GM's the resources to bring in new high quality talent through free agency or to retain many of the local stars.
Like most, I have adjusted to the realities of free agency, arbitration, high payroll teams, and the need (particularly for low revenue teams) to look at baseball in the terms of windows of opportunity. The Pirates experienced one of those windows in the late 80's - early 90's, and didn't see another real window until Cutch shined as a superstar. During the many years in between I pinned my hopes on the farm system delivering more talent to add to the core of Kendall-Giles-Ramirez (it didn't), or a pitching staff of Duke, Perez, Snell, and others maturing into a regularly productive rotation (evaporated before it really happened).
So --- with what I take as your basic question. Is my judgment clouded by my age; meaning that I want to see a winner now because I fear my death. No.
I want the Pirate GM to identify and implement a real plan that has a chance of restoring the team to a bundle of winning seasons in which it has multiple chances to win a division series and even a World Series. The GM's job is made nearly impossible by an owner who flatly has refused to spend, even when a reasonable short-term investment of another $15 mil or so could have extended the team's opportunity to win by another season or two. My current hope is that BC can pull this off; be it 2023 or 2024, recognizing that 2021 and 2022 (at a minimum) likely will feature some really bad baseball and lousy team records.
If I were a Yankee, Dodger, Red Sox, or Philly fan, the above Pirate approach would be unacceptable to me because those teams have the financial resources to make both good and bad decisions. But, as a Pirate fan, I know that the owner treats nickels the way other owners treat thousands of dollars, and that the only way forward for the current team is to break it down, acquire as many prospects (and suspects) as possible, and to then hope that a core emerges and leads the team to a streak of winning seasons.
Nicely put. I'm mostly with you however ever now and then I get depressed to think we have to wait 3 years to see a real team. Just hope Cherington has built a management team that can evalute real talent. Joe Brown may have been the last GM who could really evaluate talent. The others just seem to add guys and ever now and then they would find a jewel but it was pure luck. I don't want to count on luck, I want the odds in our favor that some of these guys turn out. We'll see soon if our new GM is lucky or really knows what he's doing. That is, we need to have some consistency in bringing up talent every year not every 5 years someone shows up.
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Bobster21
Outlook and age
657D7F78786F7E79646573160 wrote: I would lump myself in the category of 'older fans' (older, not old) as I will soon be starting the decade of my 70's.
I feel fortunate to have seen Clemente play, and to see the early teams of the 70's (before I moved to Alaska where I didn't see any baseball until the advent of superstations, and then it was the Cubs and Braves).
Although the structure of baseball up through the 60's and early 70's was grossly unfair to players, there was a lot of comfort in knowing that your idols would remain with the team you were rooting for unless they were traded. Free agency, whether it be good or bad for the overall game of baseball, has been particularly cruel to Pirate fans because none of the team's owners ever provided their GM's the resources to bring in new high quality talent through free agency or to retain many of the local stars.
Like most, I have adjusted to the realities of free agency, arbitration, high payroll teams, and the need (particularly for low revenue teams) to look at baseball in the terms of windows of opportunity. The Pirates experienced one of those windows in the late 80's - early 90's, and didn't see another real window until Cutch shined as a superstar. During the many years in between I pinned my hopes on the farm system delivering more talent to add to the core of Kendall-Giles-Ramirez (it didn't), or a pitching staff of Duke, Perez, Snell, and others maturing into a regularly productive rotation (evaporated before it really happened).
So --- with what I take as your basic question. Is my judgment clouded by my age; meaning that I want to see a winner now because I fear my death. No.
I want the Pirate GM to identify and implement a real plan that has a chance of restoring the team to a bundle of winning seasons in which it has multiple chances to win a division series and even a World Series. The GM's job is made nearly impossible by an owner who flatly has refused to spend, even when a reasonable short-term investment of another $15 mil or so could have extended the team's opportunity to win by another season or two. My current hope is that BC can pull this off; be it 2023 or 2024, recognizing that 2021 and 2022 (at a minimum) likely will feature some really bad baseball and lousy team records.
If I were a Yankee, Dodger, Red Sox, or Philly fan, the above Pirate approach would be unacceptable to me because those teams have the financial resources to make both good and bad decisions. But, as a Pirate fan, I know that the owner treats nickels the way other owners treat thousands of dollars, and that the only way forward for the current team is to break it down, acquire as many prospects (and suspects) as possible, and to then hope that a core emerges and leads the team to a streak of winning seasons.
Nicely put. I'm mostly with you however ever now and then I get depressed to think we have to wait 3 years to see a real team. Just hope Cherington has built a management team that can evalute real talent. Joe Brown may have been the last GM who could really evaluate talent. The others just seem to add guys and ever now and then they would find a jewel but it was pure luck. I don't want to count on luck, I want the odds in our favor that some of these guys turn out. We'll see soon if our new GM is lucky or really knows what he's doing. That is, we need to have some consistency in bringing up talent every year not every 5 years someone shows up.
Joe Brown was a great GM in an era when GM's didn't have to deal with losing star players to free agency or breaking the bank to keep them. In fact, several of the champion 1960 Pirates had taken pay cuts following their poor 1959 season.
I feel fortunate to have seen Clemente play, and to see the early teams of the 70's (before I moved to Alaska where I didn't see any baseball until the advent of superstations, and then it was the Cubs and Braves).
Although the structure of baseball up through the 60's and early 70's was grossly unfair to players, there was a lot of comfort in knowing that your idols would remain with the team you were rooting for unless they were traded. Free agency, whether it be good or bad for the overall game of baseball, has been particularly cruel to Pirate fans because none of the team's owners ever provided their GM's the resources to bring in new high quality talent through free agency or to retain many of the local stars.
Like most, I have adjusted to the realities of free agency, arbitration, high payroll teams, and the need (particularly for low revenue teams) to look at baseball in the terms of windows of opportunity. The Pirates experienced one of those windows in the late 80's - early 90's, and didn't see another real window until Cutch shined as a superstar. During the many years in between I pinned my hopes on the farm system delivering more talent to add to the core of Kendall-Giles-Ramirez (it didn't), or a pitching staff of Duke, Perez, Snell, and others maturing into a regularly productive rotation (evaporated before it really happened).
So --- with what I take as your basic question. Is my judgment clouded by my age; meaning that I want to see a winner now because I fear my death. No.
I want the Pirate GM to identify and implement a real plan that has a chance of restoring the team to a bundle of winning seasons in which it has multiple chances to win a division series and even a World Series. The GM's job is made nearly impossible by an owner who flatly has refused to spend, even when a reasonable short-term investment of another $15 mil or so could have extended the team's opportunity to win by another season or two. My current hope is that BC can pull this off; be it 2023 or 2024, recognizing that 2021 and 2022 (at a minimum) likely will feature some really bad baseball and lousy team records.
If I were a Yankee, Dodger, Red Sox, or Philly fan, the above Pirate approach would be unacceptable to me because those teams have the financial resources to make both good and bad decisions. But, as a Pirate fan, I know that the owner treats nickels the way other owners treat thousands of dollars, and that the only way forward for the current team is to break it down, acquire as many prospects (and suspects) as possible, and to then hope that a core emerges and leads the team to a streak of winning seasons.
Nicely put. I'm mostly with you however ever now and then I get depressed to think we have to wait 3 years to see a real team. Just hope Cherington has built a management team that can evalute real talent. Joe Brown may have been the last GM who could really evaluate talent. The others just seem to add guys and ever now and then they would find a jewel but it was pure luck. I don't want to count on luck, I want the odds in our favor that some of these guys turn out. We'll see soon if our new GM is lucky or really knows what he's doing. That is, we need to have some consistency in bringing up talent every year not every 5 years someone shows up.
Joe Brown was a great GM in an era when GM's didn't have to deal with losing star players to free agency or breaking the bank to keep them. In fact, several of the champion 1960 Pirates had taken pay cuts following their poor 1959 season.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Outlook and age
I think our ages have something to do with how we view the Pirates situation but, frankly, we all likely agree that while we realistically can't expect the Pirates to compete every year, we'd like them to be competitive more often than not. Tampa and Oakland, two similar franchises, prove it can be done.
Which means two critical things must be in place: an owner who will provide his GM with what he needs at the proper time, and a GM who can surround himself with a staff that can identify amateur talent, and coaches who can develop that talent into major league contributors.
I have a good feeling that Cherington is going to do his job. I have no faith that the owner will do his. And that, more than my age, is the problem for me. Bob Nutting is the roadblock and, after 2015, I have no allusions that he'll do what it takes to win a title. Profit will always be his priority, first and foremost.
Which means two critical things must be in place: an owner who will provide his GM with what he needs at the proper time, and a GM who can surround himself with a staff that can identify amateur talent, and coaches who can develop that talent into major league contributors.
I have a good feeling that Cherington is going to do his job. I have no faith that the owner will do his. And that, more than my age, is the problem for me. Bob Nutting is the roadblock and, after 2015, I have no allusions that he'll do what it takes to win a title. Profit will always be his priority, first and foremost.
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fjk090852-7
- Posts: 3611
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:52 pm
Outlook and age
217761757A60707B766153747E727A7F3D70130 wrote: I think our ages have something to do with how we view the Pirates situation but, frankly, we all likely agree that while we realistically can't expect the Pirates to compete every year, we'd like them to be competitive more often than not. Tampa and Oakland, two similar franchises, prove it can be done.
Which means two critical things must be in place: an owner who will provide his GM with what he needs at the proper time, and a GM who can surround himself with a staff that can identify amateur talent, and coaches who can develop that talent into major league contributors.
I have a good feeling that Cherington is going to do his job. I have no faith that the owner will do his. And that, more than my age, is the problem for me. Bob Nutting is the roadblock and, after 2015, I have no allusions that he'll do what it takes to win a title. Profit will always be his priority, first and foremost.
I am an older fan going back to 1960. Many of these past years have been painful to follow. I too have confidence in Ben Cherington’s plan. They do say that Bob Nutting will spend when the time comes to be competitive. I hope he does because for all the baseball games I ever attended the 2013 Wild Card had to have been the greatest game I ever attended. Just imagine what PNC would be like if the Pirates won a Division Series, NL Championship or better the World Series.
Which means two critical things must be in place: an owner who will provide his GM with what he needs at the proper time, and a GM who can surround himself with a staff that can identify amateur talent, and coaches who can develop that talent into major league contributors.
I have a good feeling that Cherington is going to do his job. I have no faith that the owner will do his. And that, more than my age, is the problem for me. Bob Nutting is the roadblock and, after 2015, I have no allusions that he'll do what it takes to win a title. Profit will always be his priority, first and foremost.
I am an older fan going back to 1960. Many of these past years have been painful to follow. I too have confidence in Ben Cherington’s plan. They do say that Bob Nutting will spend when the time comes to be competitive. I hope he does because for all the baseball games I ever attended the 2013 Wild Card had to have been the greatest game I ever attended. Just imagine what PNC would be like if the Pirates won a Division Series, NL Championship or better the World Series.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Outlook and age
7B77762D242D25282F302A1D0 wrote: I think our ages have something to do with how we view the Pirates situation but, frankly, we all likely agree that while we realistically can't expect the Pirates to compete every year, we'd like them to be competitive more often than not. Tampa and Oakland, two similar franchises, prove it can be done.
Which means two critical things must be in place: an owner who will provide his GM with what he needs at the proper time, and a GM who can surround himself with a staff that can identify amateur talent, and coaches who can develop that talent into major league contributors.
I have a good feeling that Cherington is going to do his job. I have no faith that the owner will do his. And that, more than my age, is the problem for me. Bob Nutting is the roadblock and, after 2015, I have no allusions that he'll do what it takes to win a title. Profit will always be his priority, first and foremost.
I am an older fan going back to 1960. Many of these past years have been painful to follow. I too have confidence in Ben Cherington’s plan. [highlight]They do say that Bob Nutting will spend when the time comes to be competitive.[/highlight] I hope he does because for all the baseball games I ever attended the 2013 Wild Card had to have been the greatest game I ever attended. Just imagine what PNC would be like if the Pirates won a Division Series, NL Championship or better the World Series.
We first heard that promise early-on in the Huntington years. The time to spend was right a few times during those years. We were also told numerous times that the Pirates weren't going to spend as much as they could in a certain year and would be saving the money for when the time to spend was right. They should have a billion dollars stashed away by now.
I've stopped believing them. While their words lie, their actions don't. Nutting, Coonelly, and Huntington were lying liars who lie. Nutting is still there and in charge. What happened at the 2013 play-in game means nothing to him.
Which means two critical things must be in place: an owner who will provide his GM with what he needs at the proper time, and a GM who can surround himself with a staff that can identify amateur talent, and coaches who can develop that talent into major league contributors.
I have a good feeling that Cherington is going to do his job. I have no faith that the owner will do his. And that, more than my age, is the problem for me. Bob Nutting is the roadblock and, after 2015, I have no allusions that he'll do what it takes to win a title. Profit will always be his priority, first and foremost.
I am an older fan going back to 1960. Many of these past years have been painful to follow. I too have confidence in Ben Cherington’s plan. [highlight]They do say that Bob Nutting will spend when the time comes to be competitive.[/highlight] I hope he does because for all the baseball games I ever attended the 2013 Wild Card had to have been the greatest game I ever attended. Just imagine what PNC would be like if the Pirates won a Division Series, NL Championship or better the World Series.
We first heard that promise early-on in the Huntington years. The time to spend was right a few times during those years. We were also told numerous times that the Pirates weren't going to spend as much as they could in a certain year and would be saving the money for when the time to spend was right. They should have a billion dollars stashed away by now.
I've stopped believing them. While their words lie, their actions don't. Nutting, Coonelly, and Huntington were lying liars who lie. Nutting is still there and in charge. What happened at the 2013 play-in game means nothing to him.
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Bobster21
Outlook and age
712731252A30202B263103242E222A2F6D20430 wrote: I think our ages have something to do with how we view the Pirates situation but, frankly, we all likely agree that while we realistically can't expect the Pirates to compete every year, we'd like them to be competitive more often than not. Tampa and Oakland, two similar franchises, prove it can be done.
Which means two critical things must be in place: an owner who will provide his GM with what he needs at the proper time, and a GM who can surround himself with a staff that can identify amateur talent, and coaches who can develop that talent into major league contributors.
I have a good feeling that Cherington is going to do his job. I have no faith that the owner will do his. And that, more than my age, is the problem for me. Bob Nutting is the roadblock and, after 2015, I have no allusions that he'll do what it takes to win a title. Profit will always be his priority, first and foremost.
I am an older fan going back to 1960. Many of these past years have been painful to follow. I too have confidence in Ben Cherington’s plan. [highlight]They do say that Bob Nutting will spend when the time comes to be competitive.[/highlight] I hope he does because for all the baseball games I ever attended the 2013 Wild Card had to have been the greatest game I ever attended. Just imagine what PNC would be like if the Pirates won a Division Series, NL Championship or better the World Series.
We first heard that promise early-on in the Huntington years. The time to spend was right a few times during those years. We were also told numerous times that the Pirates weren't going to spend as much as they could in a certain year and would be saving the money for when the time to spend was right. They should have a billion dollars stashed away by now.
I've stopped believing them. While their words lie, their actions don't. Nutting, Coonelly, and Huntington were lying liars who lie. Nutting is still there and in charge. What happened at the 2013 play-in game means nothing to him.
I agree Doc. I think we need to wait and see whether or not Cherington will succeed in rebuilding the organization. But we already have a long track record on Nutting. He has proven he won't spend. The time is never going to right. He's not going to spend.
Which means two critical things must be in place: an owner who will provide his GM with what he needs at the proper time, and a GM who can surround himself with a staff that can identify amateur talent, and coaches who can develop that talent into major league contributors.
I have a good feeling that Cherington is going to do his job. I have no faith that the owner will do his. And that, more than my age, is the problem for me. Bob Nutting is the roadblock and, after 2015, I have no allusions that he'll do what it takes to win a title. Profit will always be his priority, first and foremost.
I am an older fan going back to 1960. Many of these past years have been painful to follow. I too have confidence in Ben Cherington’s plan. [highlight]They do say that Bob Nutting will spend when the time comes to be competitive.[/highlight] I hope he does because for all the baseball games I ever attended the 2013 Wild Card had to have been the greatest game I ever attended. Just imagine what PNC would be like if the Pirates won a Division Series, NL Championship or better the World Series.
We first heard that promise early-on in the Huntington years. The time to spend was right a few times during those years. We were also told numerous times that the Pirates weren't going to spend as much as they could in a certain year and would be saving the money for when the time to spend was right. They should have a billion dollars stashed away by now.
I've stopped believing them. While their words lie, their actions don't. Nutting, Coonelly, and Huntington were lying liars who lie. Nutting is still there and in charge. What happened at the 2013 play-in game means nothing to him.
I agree Doc. I think we need to wait and see whether or not Cherington will succeed in rebuilding the organization. But we already have a long track record on Nutting. He has proven he won't spend. The time is never going to right. He's not going to spend.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Outlook and age
History has overwhelmingly shown that the world champion clubs have been in the top 15 of payrolls. I have no doubt that Cherington's capable of fielding a very good roster (assuming that salaries don't escalate out of the norm.)
Whether "Time's Never Right" Nutting will provide the resources required to pay for experienced talent remains to be seen. Wish I could feel better about that.
That's why I've set making the LCS or WS as my higest expectation rather than holding The Commissioners Trophy (under the current playoff structure.)
I wouldn't be surprised if BOB thinks that's enough to satisfy the overwhelming majority of his fans. After all, we've been so bad for so long that getting that far would be quite the accomplishment. It's quite the accomplishment for most clubs. Only four get there each year, so that means a lot of spenders don't make it that far.
Whether "Time's Never Right" Nutting will provide the resources required to pay for experienced talent remains to be seen. Wish I could feel better about that.
That's why I've set making the LCS or WS as my higest expectation rather than holding The Commissioners Trophy (under the current playoff structure.)
I wouldn't be surprised if BOB thinks that's enough to satisfy the overwhelming majority of his fans. After all, we've been so bad for so long that getting that far would be quite the accomplishment. It's quite the accomplishment for most clubs. Only four get there each year, so that means a lot of spenders don't make it that far.
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johnfluharty
Outlook and age
I think Nutting would be tickled pink if we could do what the Rays do and field a playoff caliber team on a low payroll, and I think that's what he's asked Cherington to try and do. I am skeptical about ever seeing any extra money, even for a short window.
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JollyRoger
- Posts: 1469
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:31 pm
Outlook and age
Count me as one of the “older posters”. I was 14 when the Pirates won it all in 1971. Grew up watching Clemente and my personal idol which was Willie Stargell. Cried as a grown man when Cabrera sent us on a record breaking 20 years of futility.
The recent trades made by BC has renewed my optimism.
I believe the Pirates are on the verge of having a Top Ten rated Farm System. They must scout and find the very best of the International talent. They must hit on more draft picks than they have previously done. Look at how the Dodgers consistently draft and develop an almost endless supply line of talent. Look at how the Padres built a top 5 farm system that has allowed them to go for it now.
Sadly, the major obstacle remains and that is Nutting. I hold zero hope that he will ever invest in the team to have even an average ML payroll. No Buc fans expect a payroll like the Cubs in our division or the Yanks, Dodgers, Red Sox, Braves, etc. But the fact that we cannot even expect our owner to have a payroll that competes with the Reds, Cards, and Brewers is very discouraging.
So my hope rests with BC catching lightening in a bottle with trades, the draft, and International signings.
It’s a real shame Nutting won’t sell to Mark Cuban
The recent trades made by BC has renewed my optimism.
I believe the Pirates are on the verge of having a Top Ten rated Farm System. They must scout and find the very best of the International talent. They must hit on more draft picks than they have previously done. Look at how the Dodgers consistently draft and develop an almost endless supply line of talent. Look at how the Padres built a top 5 farm system that has allowed them to go for it now.
Sadly, the major obstacle remains and that is Nutting. I hold zero hope that he will ever invest in the team to have even an average ML payroll. No Buc fans expect a payroll like the Cubs in our division or the Yanks, Dodgers, Red Sox, Braves, etc. But the fact that we cannot even expect our owner to have a payroll that competes with the Reds, Cards, and Brewers is very discouraging.
So my hope rests with BC catching lightening in a bottle with trades, the draft, and International signings.
It’s a real shame Nutting won’t sell to Mark Cuban