I see this as- just one more, I know- wake up call. If this doesn't wake up those who need woken up, I'm not sure that anything is able to wake them up.
The optimist inside me says that Ben and his cast & crew will address all that needs to be resolved.
The pessimist has his doubts, just because we've struggled as an organization for so long, for so many reasons.
I'm hoping that- this time- the optimist wins out.
This was not one guy acting on his own. Will Craig had his share of co-conspirators. Time to get things crisp once and....for all! Whatever it takes.
The calliopes can be heard from here to Sewickley
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
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WildwoodDave2
The calliopes can be heard from here to Sewickley
7325332728322229243301262C20282D6F22410 wrote: Regardless of minor league experience, Craig can no longer play at the MLB level. It's more than some "brain fart." We have former MLB players saying it. So have some of us.
It's a poor look and we know who to look at. It's more than one guy, but the buck stops and starts somewhere.
It's just that some choose to look the other way; excusing as a momentary mistake by one guy.
How many guys handled that ball? How many didn't communicate effectively? It's organizational, not individual.
Yeah, Craig needs to go. But I think more for his slow, weak swing that that one play. But since he needs to go anyway, now would be a good time to do it to show the whole team that such idiocy is unacceptable. And it is unbelievable that the whole team froze and no one apparently told the clueless Craig what to do. In baseball it's never a good idea to assume someone else knows what to do no matter how obvious it should be. When coaching a base, it's always good to remind the runner how many outs there are, whether to tag on a fly ball, etc even though it shouldn't be necessary. It shouldn't have been necessary to tell Craig to forget about chasing Baez and just go step on 1B. But at some point it was obvious he needed help and it looks like he didn't get any.
Not looking for an excuse for Craig but as I watch that video closely , it could be that Perez was calling for the ball. If he knew what was going on , he should have walked up he line and assisted Craig ... no ?
If Perez was calling for the ball, he's equally to blame along with Craig. If not, because he was directly involved with what Craig was doing, he should've started running at Craig, telling him to go back to first base.
In the meantime, Anderson, who was next closest, should've been screaming to Craig to retreat back to first. The other three infielders, who typically are a team's smartest players, were also complicit in that they simply watched instead of moving towards Craig to get his attention.
The whole lot of them ought to have to spend the next 10 days with the Bradenton team for remedial instruction.
Maybe Perez was calling for it in Spanish
It's a poor look and we know who to look at. It's more than one guy, but the buck stops and starts somewhere.
It's just that some choose to look the other way; excusing as a momentary mistake by one guy.
How many guys handled that ball? How many didn't communicate effectively? It's organizational, not individual.
Yeah, Craig needs to go. But I think more for his slow, weak swing that that one play. But since he needs to go anyway, now would be a good time to do it to show the whole team that such idiocy is unacceptable. And it is unbelievable that the whole team froze and no one apparently told the clueless Craig what to do. In baseball it's never a good idea to assume someone else knows what to do no matter how obvious it should be. When coaching a base, it's always good to remind the runner how many outs there are, whether to tag on a fly ball, etc even though it shouldn't be necessary. It shouldn't have been necessary to tell Craig to forget about chasing Baez and just go step on 1B. But at some point it was obvious he needed help and it looks like he didn't get any.
Not looking for an excuse for Craig but as I watch that video closely , it could be that Perez was calling for the ball. If he knew what was going on , he should have walked up he line and assisted Craig ... no ?
If Perez was calling for the ball, he's equally to blame along with Craig. If not, because he was directly involved with what Craig was doing, he should've started running at Craig, telling him to go back to first base.
In the meantime, Anderson, who was next closest, should've been screaming to Craig to retreat back to first. The other three infielders, who typically are a team's smartest players, were also complicit in that they simply watched instead of moving towards Craig to get his attention.
The whole lot of them ought to have to spend the next 10 days with the Bradenton team for remedial instruction.
Maybe Perez was calling for it in Spanish
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2drfischer@gmail.c
The calliopes can be heard from here to Sewickley
76484D45564E4E456540574413210 wrote: Regardless of minor league experience, Craig can no longer play at the MLB level. It's more than some "brain fart." We have former MLB players saying it. So have some of us.
It's a poor look and we know who to look at. It's more than one guy, but the buck stops and starts somewhere.
It's just that some choose to look the other way; excusing as a momentary mistake by one guy.
How many guys handled that ball? How many didn't communicate effectively? It's organizational, not individual.
Yeah, Craig needs to go. But I think more for his slow, weak swing that that one play. But since he needs to go anyway, now would be a good time to do it to show the whole team that such idiocy is unacceptable. And it is unbelievable that the whole team froze and no one apparently told the clueless Craig what to do. In baseball it's never a good idea to assume someone else knows what to do no matter how obvious it should be. When coaching a base, it's always good to remind the runner how many outs there are, whether to tag on a fly ball, etc even though it shouldn't be necessary. It shouldn't have been necessary to tell Craig to forget about chasing Baez and just go step on 1B. But at some point it was obvious he needed help and it looks like he didn't get any.
Not looking for an excuse for Craig but as I watch that video closely , it could be that Perez was calling for the ball. If he knew what was going on , he should have walked up he line and assisted Craig ... no ?
If Perez was calling for the ball, he's equally to blame along with Craig. If not, because he was directly involved with what Craig was doing, he should've started running at Craig, telling him to go back to first base.
In the meantime, Anderson, who was next closest, should've been screaming to Craig to retreat back to first. The other three infielders, who typically are a team's smartest players, were also complicit in that they simply watched instead of moving towards Craig to get his attention.
The whole lot of them ought to have to spend the next 10 days with the Bradenton team for remedial instruction.
Maybe Perez was calling for it in Spanish
That reminds me of a funny story about the '62 Mets where a Latino SS named Elio Chacon kept running into CF Richie Ashburn when fly balls were hit between them. You can find it on YouTube by searching for "Yo la tengo" and the 1962 Mets.
It's a poor look and we know who to look at. It's more than one guy, but the buck stops and starts somewhere.
It's just that some choose to look the other way; excusing as a momentary mistake by one guy.
How many guys handled that ball? How many didn't communicate effectively? It's organizational, not individual.
Yeah, Craig needs to go. But I think more for his slow, weak swing that that one play. But since he needs to go anyway, now would be a good time to do it to show the whole team that such idiocy is unacceptable. And it is unbelievable that the whole team froze and no one apparently told the clueless Craig what to do. In baseball it's never a good idea to assume someone else knows what to do no matter how obvious it should be. When coaching a base, it's always good to remind the runner how many outs there are, whether to tag on a fly ball, etc even though it shouldn't be necessary. It shouldn't have been necessary to tell Craig to forget about chasing Baez and just go step on 1B. But at some point it was obvious he needed help and it looks like he didn't get any.
Not looking for an excuse for Craig but as I watch that video closely , it could be that Perez was calling for the ball. If he knew what was going on , he should have walked up he line and assisted Craig ... no ?
If Perez was calling for the ball, he's equally to blame along with Craig. If not, because he was directly involved with what Craig was doing, he should've started running at Craig, telling him to go back to first base.
In the meantime, Anderson, who was next closest, should've been screaming to Craig to retreat back to first. The other three infielders, who typically are a team's smartest players, were also complicit in that they simply watched instead of moving towards Craig to get his attention.
The whole lot of them ought to have to spend the next 10 days with the Bradenton team for remedial instruction.
Maybe Perez was calling for it in Spanish
That reminds me of a funny story about the '62 Mets where a Latino SS named Elio Chacon kept running into CF Richie Ashburn when fly balls were hit between them. You can find it on YouTube by searching for "Yo la tengo" and the 1962 Mets.
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rucker59@gmail.com
The calliopes can be heard from here to Sewickley
4876737B6870707B5B7E697A2D1F0 wrote: Regardless of minor league experience, Craig can no longer play at the MLB level. It's more than some "brain fart." We have former MLB players saying it. So have some of us.
It's a poor look and we know who to look at. It's more than one guy, but the buck stops and starts somewhere.
It's just that some choose to look the other way; excusing as a momentary mistake by one guy.
How many guys handled that ball? How many didn't communicate effectively? It's organizational, not individual.
Yeah, Craig needs to go. But I think more for his slow, weak swing that that one play. But since he needs to go anyway, now would be a good time to do it to show the whole team that such idiocy is unacceptable. And it is unbelievable that the whole team froze and no one apparently told the clueless Craig what to do. In baseball it's never a good idea to assume someone else knows what to do no matter how obvious it should be. When coaching a base, it's always good to remind the runner how many outs there are, whether to tag on a fly ball, etc even though it shouldn't be necessary. It shouldn't have been necessary to tell Craig to forget about chasing Baez and just go step on 1B. But at some point it was obvious he needed help and it looks like he didn't get any.
Not looking for an excuse for Craig but as I watch that video closely , it could be that Perez was calling for the ball. If he knew what was going on , he should have walked up he line and assisted Craig ... no ?
If Perez was calling for the ball, he's equally to blame along with Craig. If not, because he was directly involved with what Craig was doing, he should've started running at Craig, telling him to go back to first base.
In the meantime, Anderson, who was next closest, should've been screaming to Craig to retreat back to first. The other three infielders, who typically are a team's smartest players, were also complicit in that they simply watched instead of moving towards Craig to get his attention.
The whole lot of them ought to have to spend the next 10 days with the Bradenton team for remedial instruction.
Maybe Perez was calling for it in Spanish
Very possible. Spanish and South Korean can be very confusing for those not fluent. I remember a triple play Jung Ho was involved in: he caught a blazing liner but froze as the entire infield was yelling for him to throw the ball. Thankfully I looked up from my nacho chips just in time to see what was happening so I yelled "정호, 공을 2 등으로 던져, 정말 빨리", Jung Ho looked at me for a second and threw the ball to 2nd and Neal whipped the ball to first.
Jung Ho and Neal tipped their hats to me and we had a few words after the game. Jung Ho said "나는 당신이 알고있는 것을 알아 냈을 것입니다" and I said "그러나 내일은 너무 늦었을 것입니다!" Even Cutch got a good laugh!
It's a poor look and we know who to look at. It's more than one guy, but the buck stops and starts somewhere.
It's just that some choose to look the other way; excusing as a momentary mistake by one guy.
How many guys handled that ball? How many didn't communicate effectively? It's organizational, not individual.
Yeah, Craig needs to go. But I think more for his slow, weak swing that that one play. But since he needs to go anyway, now would be a good time to do it to show the whole team that such idiocy is unacceptable. And it is unbelievable that the whole team froze and no one apparently told the clueless Craig what to do. In baseball it's never a good idea to assume someone else knows what to do no matter how obvious it should be. When coaching a base, it's always good to remind the runner how many outs there are, whether to tag on a fly ball, etc even though it shouldn't be necessary. It shouldn't have been necessary to tell Craig to forget about chasing Baez and just go step on 1B. But at some point it was obvious he needed help and it looks like he didn't get any.
Not looking for an excuse for Craig but as I watch that video closely , it could be that Perez was calling for the ball. If he knew what was going on , he should have walked up he line and assisted Craig ... no ?
If Perez was calling for the ball, he's equally to blame along with Craig. If not, because he was directly involved with what Craig was doing, he should've started running at Craig, telling him to go back to first base.
In the meantime, Anderson, who was next closest, should've been screaming to Craig to retreat back to first. The other three infielders, who typically are a team's smartest players, were also complicit in that they simply watched instead of moving towards Craig to get his attention.
The whole lot of them ought to have to spend the next 10 days with the Bradenton team for remedial instruction.
Maybe Perez was calling for it in Spanish
Very possible. Spanish and South Korean can be very confusing for those not fluent. I remember a triple play Jung Ho was involved in: he caught a blazing liner but froze as the entire infield was yelling for him to throw the ball. Thankfully I looked up from my nacho chips just in time to see what was happening so I yelled "정호, 공을 2 등으로 던져, 정말 빨리", Jung Ho looked at me for a second and threw the ball to 2nd and Neal whipped the ball to first.
Jung Ho and Neal tipped their hats to me and we had a few words after the game. Jung Ho said "나는 당신이 알고있는 것을 알아 냈을 것입니다" and I said "그러나 내일은 너무 늦었을 것입니다!" Even Cutch got a good laugh!
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
The calliopes can be heard from here to Sewickley
A rundown....with no one covering first base. By the time someone thought that it was a good idea to head over there, Garo Yapremian threw the ball in that general direction, anyway.@@@
I'm rubbing this in for a reason- discipline. Good teams show discipline. They know what to do. They do it. Good teams mess up, but they mess up less often or make less costly mistakes.
The best coaches and managers instill a sense of discipline. They ease up once in a while, but only after that disciplined play takes hold.
On this board, I've read criticism about lack of disciplined play by guys like Polanco who make more dumb plays in the field and bad base running.
So, how are the Pirates instilling better "use your head" play? By nothing. Shelton's laughing and sending Craig back out there.
This "nice guy" idea might be sending the wrong message. I think that it's easier to ease up AFTER Shelton and Cherington see better thinking. Reward guys AFTER you get what you want.
Being tough early sends the message that there's a price to pay when we don't use our head. Laughing and "forgetting about" stuff like this is what losers do. If I was Shelton, I'd be a little pissed off for a while.
Nice guys? We know how their teams finish.
Guys need to use their heads.
On the 79 Bucs, I might laugh. On the 21 Pirates, I'm not laughing. I'd do something until I got my message across.
I'm rubbing this in for a reason- discipline. Good teams show discipline. They know what to do. They do it. Good teams mess up, but they mess up less often or make less costly mistakes.
The best coaches and managers instill a sense of discipline. They ease up once in a while, but only after that disciplined play takes hold.
On this board, I've read criticism about lack of disciplined play by guys like Polanco who make more dumb plays in the field and bad base running.
So, how are the Pirates instilling better "use your head" play? By nothing. Shelton's laughing and sending Craig back out there.
This "nice guy" idea might be sending the wrong message. I think that it's easier to ease up AFTER Shelton and Cherington see better thinking. Reward guys AFTER you get what you want.
Being tough early sends the message that there's a price to pay when we don't use our head. Laughing and "forgetting about" stuff like this is what losers do. If I was Shelton, I'd be a little pissed off for a while.
Nice guys? We know how their teams finish.
Guys need to use their heads.
On the 79 Bucs, I might laugh. On the 21 Pirates, I'm not laughing. I'd do something until I got my message across.
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Bobster21
The calliopes can be heard from here to Sewickley
5D687F7F744D7F7F74737F1A0 wrote: A rundown....with no one covering first base. By the time someone thought that it was a good idea to head over there, Garo Yapremian threw the ball in that general direction, anyway.@@@
I'm rubbing this in for a reason- discipline. Good teams show discipline. They know what to do. They do it. Good teams mess up, but they mess up less often or make less costly mistakes.
The best coaches and managers instill a sense of discipline. They ease up once in a while, but only after that disciplined play takes hold.
On this board, I've read criticism about lack of disciplined play by guys like Polanco who make more dumb plays in the field and bad base running.
So, how are the Pirates instilling better "use your head" play? By nothing. Shelton's laughing and sending Craig back out there.
This "nice guy" idea might be sending the wrong message. I think that it's easier to ease up AFTER Shelton and Cherington see better thinking. Reward guys AFTER you get what you want.
Being tough early sends the message that there's a price to pay when we don't use our head. Laughing and "forgetting about" stuff like this is what losers do. If I was Shelton, I'd be a little pissed off for a while.
Nice guys? We know how their teams finish.
Guys need to use their heads.
On the 79 Bucs, I might laugh. On the 21 Pirates, I'm not laughing. I'd do something until I got my message across.
Totally agree. IMHO, Shelton is a horrible manager. Not just because of his lineups, games where he rests everyone who's been hitting, senselessly having runners at 3B go on contact against a drawn in infield, or having his own infield drawn in early in the game when a hit past them means extra runs. But also for presiding over a team with very flawed fundamentals. When we keep calling out players for their individuals gaffes, the one thing they have in common is that they are all managed by the same man. Sadly, this has been an ongoing issue for the Pirates through a number of managerial changes. Obviously, Shelton is not going to be the one to change that trend.
A smile and a pat on the back is not going to do the trick. The PG reports that Shelton felt bad for Craig that night and had him in the lineup for yesterday's game that was ultimately rained out. I'm surprised he didn't take Craig out for ice cream. At some point you have to impress upon players that they are accountable for foolish mistakes and that there are consequences.
Good teams can overcome stupid mistakes. Teams that lack talent can't afford to give away runs by playing the game foolishly. I'm tired of hearing "the Pirates don't quit" or "they keep battling." Great. Kudos for not giving up in the middle of games. I'd rather hear that they may not have the talent of other teams but they play the game smartly and don't best themselves. But in the same game as the Craig gaffe, Frazier stupidly ran them out of an inning. And how many games do we see Polanco run to the wall on a ball over hit head and then chase if back thru the grass as it bounces off the wall and back toward the infield? How many times do we see an unforced runner at 2B thrown out trying for 3B on a grounder to SS? Or pitchers walking batters with 4 bad pitches after getting ahead 0-2? Or a runner tagging up when he shouldn't or not tagging up when he should? Shelton oversees a culture of losing because they don't even use their limited resources to the best of their ability. The one thing I consistently read about Shelton is that he is well liked. I'd rather he trade some of that popularity for better managerial skills.
I'm rubbing this in for a reason- discipline. Good teams show discipline. They know what to do. They do it. Good teams mess up, but they mess up less often or make less costly mistakes.
The best coaches and managers instill a sense of discipline. They ease up once in a while, but only after that disciplined play takes hold.
On this board, I've read criticism about lack of disciplined play by guys like Polanco who make more dumb plays in the field and bad base running.
So, how are the Pirates instilling better "use your head" play? By nothing. Shelton's laughing and sending Craig back out there.
This "nice guy" idea might be sending the wrong message. I think that it's easier to ease up AFTER Shelton and Cherington see better thinking. Reward guys AFTER you get what you want.
Being tough early sends the message that there's a price to pay when we don't use our head. Laughing and "forgetting about" stuff like this is what losers do. If I was Shelton, I'd be a little pissed off for a while.
Nice guys? We know how their teams finish.
Guys need to use their heads.
On the 79 Bucs, I might laugh. On the 21 Pirates, I'm not laughing. I'd do something until I got my message across.
Totally agree. IMHO, Shelton is a horrible manager. Not just because of his lineups, games where he rests everyone who's been hitting, senselessly having runners at 3B go on contact against a drawn in infield, or having his own infield drawn in early in the game when a hit past them means extra runs. But also for presiding over a team with very flawed fundamentals. When we keep calling out players for their individuals gaffes, the one thing they have in common is that they are all managed by the same man. Sadly, this has been an ongoing issue for the Pirates through a number of managerial changes. Obviously, Shelton is not going to be the one to change that trend.
A smile and a pat on the back is not going to do the trick. The PG reports that Shelton felt bad for Craig that night and had him in the lineup for yesterday's game that was ultimately rained out. I'm surprised he didn't take Craig out for ice cream. At some point you have to impress upon players that they are accountable for foolish mistakes and that there are consequences.
Good teams can overcome stupid mistakes. Teams that lack talent can't afford to give away runs by playing the game foolishly. I'm tired of hearing "the Pirates don't quit" or "they keep battling." Great. Kudos for not giving up in the middle of games. I'd rather hear that they may not have the talent of other teams but they play the game smartly and don't best themselves. But in the same game as the Craig gaffe, Frazier stupidly ran them out of an inning. And how many games do we see Polanco run to the wall on a ball over hit head and then chase if back thru the grass as it bounces off the wall and back toward the infield? How many times do we see an unforced runner at 2B thrown out trying for 3B on a grounder to SS? Or pitchers walking batters with 4 bad pitches after getting ahead 0-2? Or a runner tagging up when he shouldn't or not tagging up when he should? Shelton oversees a culture of losing because they don't even use their limited resources to the best of their ability. The one thing I consistently read about Shelton is that he is well liked. I'd rather he trade some of that popularity for better managerial skills.
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rucker59@gmail.com
The calliopes can be heard from here to Sewickley
Well good thing we have Ben in to clean up Neil's mess and hire a real manager. Oops! Maybe not.
The calliopes can be heard from here to Sewickley
2E293F37392E69651C3B313D3530723F33315C0 wrote: Well good thing we have Ben in to clean up Neil's mess and hire a real manager. Oops! Maybe not.
______
While we are at it, can anyone out there in cyberspace name one thing that Cherington has done right.
______
While we are at it, can anyone out there in cyberspace name one thing that Cherington has done right.
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Bobster21
The calliopes can be heard from here to Sewickley
79626F6E676B640A0 wrote: Well good thing we have Ben in to clean up Neil's mess and hire a real manager. Oops! Maybe not.
______
While we are at it, can anyone out there in cyberspace name one thing that Cherington has done right.
He has considerably improved the talent level in the minors. It is much better now than the minor league system he inherited from NH.
______
While we are at it, can anyone out there in cyberspace name one thing that Cherington has done right.
He has considerably improved the talent level in the minors. It is much better now than the minor league system he inherited from NH.
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WildwoodDave2
The calliopes can be heard from here to Sewickley
435855545D515E300 wrote: Well good thing we have Ben in to clean up Neil's mess and hire a real manager. Oops! Maybe not.
______
While we are at it, can anyone out there in cyberspace name one thing that Cherington has done right.
Maybe it's time to bring back the Anti Christmas game. Maybe you can explain it, Shedman
______
While we are at it, can anyone out there in cyberspace name one thing that Cherington has done right.
Maybe it's time to bring back the Anti Christmas game. Maybe you can explain it, Shedman