52 days till first Spring Training game
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
52 days till first Spring Training game
Bernier and Clemente were born in towns 43 miles apart in Puerto Rico. Much is made-and rightly so-about the racism Clemente faced but Pirates history essentially ignores their first player of color because Bernier was not born in the USA. He's technically not "African-American" but neither was Clemente.
52 days till first Spring Training game
765B56474051460605340 wrote: Bernier and Clemente were born in towns 43 miles apart in Puerto Rico. Much is made-and rightly so-about the racism Clemente faced but Pirates history essentially ignores their first player of color because Bernier was not born in the USA. He's technically not "African-American" but neither was Clemente.
I was looking at photos of top 12 players on the team page on Baseball reference, it wasn't until 1962 season that more than one black player was listed among the top 12 on the team, that year showed Clemente, Al McBean and Donn Clendenon.
I think Bernier should count especially if he is someone who would not have been allowed to play before Jackie Robinson broke the color line.
I was looking at photos of top 12 players on the team page on Baseball reference, it wasn't until 1962 season that more than one black player was listed among the top 12 on the team, that year showed Clemente, Al McBean and Donn Clendenon.
I think Bernier should count especially if he is someone who would not have been allowed to play before Jackie Robinson broke the color line.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
52 days till first Spring Training game
123F32232435226261500 wrote: Bernier and Clemente were born in towns 43 miles apart in Puerto Rico. Much is made-and rightly so-about the racism Clemente faced but Pirates history essentially ignores their first player of color because Bernier was not born in the USA. He's technically not "African-American" but neither was Clemente.
I have an acquaintance who had a meeting with the Pirates regarding promoting their history better than what they do. He told me that they really didn't care. His impression was that more money could be made doing other things. He was told that they threw away all kinds of historical documents and other items because they just didn't care.
I have an acquaintance who had a meeting with the Pirates regarding promoting their history better than what they do. He told me that they really didn't care. His impression was that more money could be made doing other things. He was told that they threw away all kinds of historical documents and other items because they just didn't care.
52 days till first Spring Training game
613721353A20303B362113343E323A3F7D30530 wrote: Bernier and Clemente were born in towns 43 miles apart in Puerto Rico. Much is made-and rightly so-about the racism Clemente faced but Pirates history essentially ignores their first player of color because Bernier was not born in the USA. He's technically not "African-American" but neither was Clemente.
I have an acquaintance who had a meeting with the Pirates regarding promoting their history better than what they do. He told me that they really didn't care. His impression was that more money could be made doing other things. He was told that they threw away all kinds of historical documents and other items because they just didn't care.
wow, how long ago was this?
I have an acquaintance who had a meeting with the Pirates regarding promoting their history better than what they do. He told me that they really didn't care. His impression was that more money could be made doing other things. He was told that they threw away all kinds of historical documents and other items because they just didn't care.
wow, how long ago was this?
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Bobster21
52 days till first Spring Training game
6F49485F49592A0 wrote: Bernier and Clemente were born in towns 43 miles apart in Puerto Rico. Much is made-and rightly so-about the racism Clemente faced but Pirates history essentially ignores their first player of color because Bernier was not born in the USA. He's technically not "African-American" but neither was Clemente.
I was looking at photos of top 12 players on the team page on Baseball reference, it wasn't until 1962 season that more than one black player was listed among the top 12 on the team, that year showed Clemente, Al McBean and Donn Clendenon.
I think Bernier should count especially if he is someone who would not have been allowed to play before Jackie Robinson broke the color line.
Those top 12 photos are in order of WAR (a stat I don't like anyway). But, WAR aside, the 1957 team featured Clemente, Baker and Mejias in significant roles. R.C. Stevens was added in '58 although Baker missed most of the season after his knee injury. Clemente, Mejias and Bennie Daniels were big parts of the '59 team. And as the 1960s progressed there was more of an infusion of black players.
I was looking at photos of top 12 players on the team page on Baseball reference, it wasn't until 1962 season that more than one black player was listed among the top 12 on the team, that year showed Clemente, Al McBean and Donn Clendenon.
I think Bernier should count especially if he is someone who would not have been allowed to play before Jackie Robinson broke the color line.
Those top 12 photos are in order of WAR (a stat I don't like anyway). But, WAR aside, the 1957 team featured Clemente, Baker and Mejias in significant roles. R.C. Stevens was added in '58 although Baker missed most of the season after his knee injury. Clemente, Mejias and Bennie Daniels were big parts of the '59 team. And as the 1960s progressed there was more of an infusion of black players.
52 days till first Spring Training game
4F626F7E79687F3F3C0D0 wrote: Bernier and Clemente were born in towns 43 miles apart in Puerto Rico. Much is made-and rightly so-about the racism Clemente faced but Pirates history essentially ignores their first player of color because Bernier was not born in the USA. He's technically not "African-American" but neither was Clemente.
I was looking at photos of top 12 players on the team page on Baseball reference, it wasn't until 1962 season that more than one black player was listed among the top 12 on the team, that year showed Clemente, Al McBean and Donn Clendenon.
I think Bernier should count especially if he is someone who would not have been allowed to play before Jackie Robinson broke the color line.
Those top 12 photos are in order of WAR (a stat I don't like anyway). But, WAR aside, the 1957 team featured Clemente, Baker and Mejias in significant roles. R.C. Stevens was added in '58 although Baker missed most of the season after his knee injury. Clemente, Mejias and Bennie Daniels were big parts of the '59 team. And as the 1960s progressed there was more of an infusion of black players.
I think a big part of the Pirates success in 1960's was having no qualms about having black and foreign ballplayers. In the baseball reference lists, I find it comical that Tom Betters somehow has a higher WAR than Stargell in 1964.
I was looking at photos of top 12 players on the team page on Baseball reference, it wasn't until 1962 season that more than one black player was listed among the top 12 on the team, that year showed Clemente, Al McBean and Donn Clendenon.
I think Bernier should count especially if he is someone who would not have been allowed to play before Jackie Robinson broke the color line.
Those top 12 photos are in order of WAR (a stat I don't like anyway). But, WAR aside, the 1957 team featured Clemente, Baker and Mejias in significant roles. R.C. Stevens was added in '58 although Baker missed most of the season after his knee injury. Clemente, Mejias and Bennie Daniels were big parts of the '59 team. And as the 1960s progressed there was more of an infusion of black players.
I think a big part of the Pirates success in 1960's was having no qualms about having black and foreign ballplayers. In the baseball reference lists, I find it comical that Tom Betters somehow has a higher WAR than Stargell in 1964.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
52 days till first Spring Training game
466061766070030 wrote: Bernier and Clemente were born in towns 43 miles apart in Puerto Rico. Much is made-and rightly so-about the racism Clemente faced but Pirates history essentially ignores their first player of color because Bernier was not born in the USA. He's technically not "African-American" but neither was Clemente.
I have an acquaintance who had a meeting with the Pirates regarding promoting their history better than what they do. He told me that they really didn't care. His impression was that more money could be made doing other things. He was told that they threw away all kinds of historical documents and other items because they just didn't care.
wow, how long ago was this?
It was after Nutting took over.
I have an acquaintance who had a meeting with the Pirates regarding promoting their history better than what they do. He told me that they really didn't care. His impression was that more money could be made doing other things. He was told that they threw away all kinds of historical documents and other items because they just didn't care.
wow, how long ago was this?
It was after Nutting took over.
52 days till first Spring Training game
Eight days until the first Spring Training game. Here are the illustrious Pirates who have worn number 8:
Vince DiMaggio, Bob Elliott, Vinnie Smith, Eddie Basinski, Monty Basgall, Clyde McCullough, Bill Howerton, Bobby Del Greco, Gair Allie, Gene Freese, Harry Bright, Dick Barone, Willie Stargell.
Best player to wear number 8: Willie Stargell. Honorable mention: Bob Elliott.
Stargell's number 8 was retired on Sept 6th, 1982. He was a first ballot HOF inductee in 1988. I remember how fortunate I was to be able to attend "Willie Stargell Night" in 1982 at Dodger Stadium. They had this giant helium balloon painted like a baseball, and Pops ceremoniously took a whack at it, and it lifted off out of the stadium, to honor the occasion of the two home runs he had hit out of Dodger Stadium, at the time the only player to have done it. (The Pirates won the game 1-0 on a first inning HR by former Dodger Lee Lacy, behind the pitching of none other than Lee Tunnell who went 7 IP of 4 hit ball to best Fernando Valenzuela, who pitched a complete game). How did Willie do on his night? Never saw the field, to the dismay of every single person in the stadium who was hoping for at least a PH at bat, but Stargell was nursing a bum knee. This game occurred on Sept 4th, 1982, two days before the Pirates would retire his number at home.
IDK what the ceremony looked like. Looking back at the 1982 season, I found it odd that they did it on a Monday night. Heck, IDK if there was a ceremony to be honest, maybe you folks that were living here could fill us in. I was stationed in 29 Palms CA at the time.
So there's my Pops story that's personal to me. He is the last Pirate to make the HOF that people born as late as the early 1970's can remember having seen played.
Our honorable mention guy is once again a Pirate I have not once ever heard talked about, and he is indeed, a HOF level player, who only had three appearances in HOF voting. Bob Elliott was a career 51 WAR player, and as a Pirate was a 23.8 WAR player. For his career primarily with Pittsburgh and the Boston Braves, he was a 7 time All Star, was the NL MVP his first season with Boston, and received MVP votes 7 times in his career.
Elliott played for two fairly mediocre, at best, teams in his prime. However he did make it to the World Series in 1948 with the Braves, who lost in 6 games to the Cleveland Indians. Elliott hit 2 home runs, 5 RBI in the series with an OPS of 1.010. I think his even split in his career with the two teams, both of who never saw much of the spotlight, kind of buries this guy. He's the type of player had he played for any of the New York teams, we would hear large mention of him, and he'd probably be a Veteran's selection, if not considered by them for the HOF.
Maybe some of the older timers on the board have a rememberance of Elliott, or at least being told about him by their dads.
Vince DiMaggio, Bob Elliott, Vinnie Smith, Eddie Basinski, Monty Basgall, Clyde McCullough, Bill Howerton, Bobby Del Greco, Gair Allie, Gene Freese, Harry Bright, Dick Barone, Willie Stargell.
Best player to wear number 8: Willie Stargell. Honorable mention: Bob Elliott.
Stargell's number 8 was retired on Sept 6th, 1982. He was a first ballot HOF inductee in 1988. I remember how fortunate I was to be able to attend "Willie Stargell Night" in 1982 at Dodger Stadium. They had this giant helium balloon painted like a baseball, and Pops ceremoniously took a whack at it, and it lifted off out of the stadium, to honor the occasion of the two home runs he had hit out of Dodger Stadium, at the time the only player to have done it. (The Pirates won the game 1-0 on a first inning HR by former Dodger Lee Lacy, behind the pitching of none other than Lee Tunnell who went 7 IP of 4 hit ball to best Fernando Valenzuela, who pitched a complete game). How did Willie do on his night? Never saw the field, to the dismay of every single person in the stadium who was hoping for at least a PH at bat, but Stargell was nursing a bum knee. This game occurred on Sept 4th, 1982, two days before the Pirates would retire his number at home.
IDK what the ceremony looked like. Looking back at the 1982 season, I found it odd that they did it on a Monday night. Heck, IDK if there was a ceremony to be honest, maybe you folks that were living here could fill us in. I was stationed in 29 Palms CA at the time.
So there's my Pops story that's personal to me. He is the last Pirate to make the HOF that people born as late as the early 1970's can remember having seen played.
Our honorable mention guy is once again a Pirate I have not once ever heard talked about, and he is indeed, a HOF level player, who only had three appearances in HOF voting. Bob Elliott was a career 51 WAR player, and as a Pirate was a 23.8 WAR player. For his career primarily with Pittsburgh and the Boston Braves, he was a 7 time All Star, was the NL MVP his first season with Boston, and received MVP votes 7 times in his career.
Elliott played for two fairly mediocre, at best, teams in his prime. However he did make it to the World Series in 1948 with the Braves, who lost in 6 games to the Cleveland Indians. Elliott hit 2 home runs, 5 RBI in the series with an OPS of 1.010. I think his even split in his career with the two teams, both of who never saw much of the spotlight, kind of buries this guy. He's the type of player had he played for any of the New York teams, we would hear large mention of him, and he'd probably be a Veteran's selection, if not considered by them for the HOF.
Maybe some of the older timers on the board have a rememberance of Elliott, or at least being told about him by their dads.
52 days till first Spring Training game
Seven days until the first Spring Training game. Here are the illustrious Pirates who have worn number 7:
Eddie Yount, Johnny Rizzo, Babe Dahlgren, Maurice Van Robays, Whitey Wietelmann, Danny Murtaugh, Gus Bell, Gene Hermanski, Dick Smith, Curt Roberts, Eddie O'Brien, R.C. Stevens, Dick Stuart, Bob Bailey, Andre Rodgers, Bob Robertson, Barry Bonds, Ruben Rodriguez, Darnell Coles, Jeff King, John Wehner, Armando Rios, Kenny Lofton, Abraham Nunez, Jose Bautista, Alex Presley.
Best player to wear number 7: Bob Robertson. Honorable mention: Danny Murtaugh, Dick Stuart, Bob Bailey, Jeff King.
Eddie Yount, Johnny Rizzo, Babe Dahlgren, Maurice Van Robays, Whitey Wietelmann, Danny Murtaugh, Gus Bell, Gene Hermanski, Dick Smith, Curt Roberts, Eddie O'Brien, R.C. Stevens, Dick Stuart, Bob Bailey, Andre Rodgers, Bob Robertson, Barry Bonds, Ruben Rodriguez, Darnell Coles, Jeff King, John Wehner, Armando Rios, Kenny Lofton, Abraham Nunez, Jose Bautista, Alex Presley.
Best player to wear number 7: Bob Robertson. Honorable mention: Danny Murtaugh, Dick Stuart, Bob Bailey, Jeff King.
52 days till first Spring Training game
Number 7 was the most difficult so far to determine "best" to wear the number. Stuart, Bailey, Robertson, and King were very similar in WAR. So, I decided to whittle it down to the two World Series victors. I went with Robertson based upon how well known his "missed bunt sign" HR is part of Pirates lore.
Bailey had a fine career primarily with the Pirates and Expos. Danny Murtaugh had one stellar season as a Buc, but I gave him extra credit for serving in WWII. Jeff King was a solid player, probably saddled with the too much expectation as a number one pick. His best seasons with the Pirates came after the 90-92 division winning teams. Dick Stuart is one of those guys from the 1960 team my mom and uncle used to talk about (well actually that whole dang team) so the guys from the 60 Pirates, I almost feel as if I actually remembered watching them play hearing so much about them.
Bailey had a fine career primarily with the Pirates and Expos. Danny Murtaugh had one stellar season as a Buc, but I gave him extra credit for serving in WWII. Jeff King was a solid player, probably saddled with the too much expectation as a number one pick. His best seasons with the Pirates came after the 90-92 division winning teams. Dick Stuart is one of those guys from the 1960 team my mom and uncle used to talk about (well actually that whole dang team) so the guys from the 60 Pirates, I almost feel as if I actually remembered watching them play hearing so much about them.