5651474F4156111D644349454D480A474B49240 wrote: Serious question here...what's the point? I mean, those who are claiming the team doesn't spend any money and is cheap (and, frankly, I agree with you...I tend to support the FO, and I hardly lay blame at their feet for Kang, Marte, and Taillon...but it's clear that this team is deficient and they are not spending sufficient money commiserate with their stadium, attendance figures, market size, and TV deals), what's the point?
Are we just venting? Are we trying to pressure Nutting into spending more money? Are we trying to pressure him into selling the team?
I only ask because, personally, I've never seen any value in venting just to vent. If people need to do it, fine, but I like to have an actual plan to accomplish an objective. So, that's my question. What's the objective here? And once we identify the objective, how do we go about accomplishing it?
If there is no objective, and we just throw up our hands and say, "Well, there's nothing I can do. I'm not Bob Nutting or in the Pirates FO," then fine. I can live with that. But let's call it what it is...venting just to vent.
Don't mean for this to come off the wrong way...I sincerely want to know.
At least for me it is at least partially driven because many think the team is trying its best to win and just falling short. I find that almost as frustrating as the team and go back to when I was becoming a fan and reading baseball magazines in the 1970's.
I soon realized after a couple seasons that many of the magazines were written in a way to show that every team was going to be greatly improved from the previous year (rosy glasses outlook). I think Fangraphs, and current sources and articles are more realistic about teams and their chances of winning.
Fair question. On reflection I find that I'm motivated by the following:
1. For years I was a defender of the FO and even more Mr Nutting(I still support Neal, believing he's doing the best he can). I was so sick of the Nutting is Cheap crowd and I both approved and justified his actions and words.
He has proven (I absolutely believe) that I was wrong. The actions did not follow his words and I'm not afraid to say so. But that in the end is fairly minor. much more than that is the stunning shift of blame to the fans which I first heard in the spring of 2016. I'll admit, that ticked me off. It was not just wrong, they spoke lies. Thus has happened on more than one occasion. As much as anything I'm defending Pirate fans who responded incredibly. In this, I admit I'm venting.
2) More still when it comes to these boards is that the FO approach directly affects the team. So in this tread I'm a big believer that the only way forward is to trade a lot of our best talent. That inevitably results in someone saying we need to sit still which leads to a comment about needing to add pieces which leads to the gutter - they won't spend the necessary money. So it's actually pretty hard to discuss the team and especially the way forward without winding up at this point. Because it's a real issue.
3) which leads to EC's point and I agree with - some of the justification of the FO pushes me to the point of being crazy (probably in the same way frustration at the FO drives you and maybe others crazy).
Mostly I want to talk about what to do next and you'll see plenty of my post that are purely baseball related. I get excited talking about what can be done. Then it's pointed out that basically nothing can be done. But I'll keep advocating for a way to be competitive next year and into the future.
I would like to add one point. This is not the first time someone has expressed fatigue (or worse) at the tone of the conversation. All I can say to that is to PLEASE start new "positive" threads that are realistic. But that doesn't happened very often either.
Venting, defending, discussing in context with the team on the field - all of this is going on in different degrees at different times.
Great post. Thank you.
What would another GM do?
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
-
rucker59@gmail.com
What would another GM do?
The answer just dawned on me - let's start a Kickstart campaign to buy the Pirates, OBN can own it, Possum being the "face" of the origination and the rest of us can rotate around being GM.
Just be aware, I'm trading the whole team off when it's my turn.
Just be aware, I'm trading the whole team off when it's my turn.
What would another GM do?
545C5F687E5B7C731D0 wrote: Serious question here...what's the point? I mean, those who are claiming the team doesn't spend any money and is cheap (and, frankly, I agree with you...I tend to support the FO, and I hardly lay blame at their feet for Kang, Marte, and Taillon...but it's clear that this team is deficient and they are not spending sufficient money commiserate with their stadium, attendance figures, market size, and TV deals), what's the point?
Are we just venting? Are we trying to pressure Nutting into spending more money? Are we trying to pressure him into selling the team?
I only ask because, personally, I've never seen any value in venting just to vent. If people need to do it, fine, but I like to have an actual plan to accomplish an objective. So, that's my question. What's the objective here? And once we identify the objective, how do we go about accomplishing it?
If there is no objective, and we just throw up our hands and say, "Well, there's nothing I can do. I'm not Bob Nutting or in the Pirates FO," then fine. I can live with that. But let's call it what it is...venting just to vent.
Don't mean for this to come off the wrong way...I sincerely want to know.
At least for me it is at least partially driven because many think the team is trying its best to win and just falling short. I find that almost as frustrating as the team and go back to when I was becoming a fan and reading baseball magazines in the 1970's.
I soon realized after a couple seasons that many of the magazines were written in a way to show that every team was going to be greatly improved from the previous year (rosy glasses outlook). I think Fangraphs, and current sources and articles are more realistic about teams and their chances of winning.
OK...but again, I'd ask...to what end? I mean, no disrespect, but what's the point of convincing other posters from a practical standpoint? Is it just to win an argument, or is there a greater purpose in mind, like organizing a walkout, protest, or boycott?
Listen, I'm with you. I see from a distance the excitement around the Pens, and the Pens have won four Cups (hopefully five soon) since the Pirates last won a World Series. But people are pumped about that team. I can only imagine what the Pirates in the World Series would do for the city. Nutting has to see that, too.
I would love for him to sell the team to an owner who will actually put up the necessary capital to field a competitive team. (Leaving aside all of the arguments about spending just to spend, having younger more cost-controlled players, etc.). But I don't see that happening. Remember the article a few years ago that said, essentially, when the Nuttings own something, they own it forever?
So, here's the point...short of that happening, why all the angst? If it's to convince other fans, again, to what end? Is OBN just an extension of the sports bar? Or is there a greater purpose here? But ranting and raving on a message board surely has about as much influence on Nutting as the Notre Dame walkout will have on Trump/Pence...maybe even less.
So, concretely, what--if anything--can be done to either move Nutting to invest heavily in the team--maybe even take a financial loss--or to sell to someone who can and will?
Because personally, I'm tired. I'm tired of being a fan of this team. I'm tired of the ups and downs of a baseball season. I'm tired of being a AAAA team, and having to have everything break right to be competitive. I can tolerate a down year. Even a down five years. What I can't tolerate is not trying...and it doesn't appear to me that the Pirates are even trying to field a competitive team right now. Honestly never thought I'd say that.
So...if we can affect some measurable change in the FO's MO, then great. I'm on board. If not, then frankly, I have far better things to do with my time. Life is too short to stress over a baseball team that is content with being the Washington Generals every year and a league that lets them do it with impunity.
why make any comments on the team then? I don't stress over the team (or any other team). I just want them to win.
In general I think it is talking about what we think it will take for the team to win.
Are we just venting? Are we trying to pressure Nutting into spending more money? Are we trying to pressure him into selling the team?
I only ask because, personally, I've never seen any value in venting just to vent. If people need to do it, fine, but I like to have an actual plan to accomplish an objective. So, that's my question. What's the objective here? And once we identify the objective, how do we go about accomplishing it?
If there is no objective, and we just throw up our hands and say, "Well, there's nothing I can do. I'm not Bob Nutting or in the Pirates FO," then fine. I can live with that. But let's call it what it is...venting just to vent.
Don't mean for this to come off the wrong way...I sincerely want to know.
At least for me it is at least partially driven because many think the team is trying its best to win and just falling short. I find that almost as frustrating as the team and go back to when I was becoming a fan and reading baseball magazines in the 1970's.
I soon realized after a couple seasons that many of the magazines were written in a way to show that every team was going to be greatly improved from the previous year (rosy glasses outlook). I think Fangraphs, and current sources and articles are more realistic about teams and their chances of winning.
OK...but again, I'd ask...to what end? I mean, no disrespect, but what's the point of convincing other posters from a practical standpoint? Is it just to win an argument, or is there a greater purpose in mind, like organizing a walkout, protest, or boycott?
Listen, I'm with you. I see from a distance the excitement around the Pens, and the Pens have won four Cups (hopefully five soon) since the Pirates last won a World Series. But people are pumped about that team. I can only imagine what the Pirates in the World Series would do for the city. Nutting has to see that, too.
I would love for him to sell the team to an owner who will actually put up the necessary capital to field a competitive team. (Leaving aside all of the arguments about spending just to spend, having younger more cost-controlled players, etc.). But I don't see that happening. Remember the article a few years ago that said, essentially, when the Nuttings own something, they own it forever?
So, here's the point...short of that happening, why all the angst? If it's to convince other fans, again, to what end? Is OBN just an extension of the sports bar? Or is there a greater purpose here? But ranting and raving on a message board surely has about as much influence on Nutting as the Notre Dame walkout will have on Trump/Pence...maybe even less.
So, concretely, what--if anything--can be done to either move Nutting to invest heavily in the team--maybe even take a financial loss--or to sell to someone who can and will?
Because personally, I'm tired. I'm tired of being a fan of this team. I'm tired of the ups and downs of a baseball season. I'm tired of being a AAAA team, and having to have everything break right to be competitive. I can tolerate a down year. Even a down five years. What I can't tolerate is not trying...and it doesn't appear to me that the Pirates are even trying to field a competitive team right now. Honestly never thought I'd say that.
So...if we can affect some measurable change in the FO's MO, then great. I'm on board. If not, then frankly, I have far better things to do with my time. Life is too short to stress over a baseball team that is content with being the Washington Generals every year and a league that lets them do it with impunity.
why make any comments on the team then? I don't stress over the team (or any other team). I just want them to win.
In general I think it is talking about what we think it will take for the team to win.
What would another GM do?
I guess I'm not saying so much, "Why make comments?" I don't want to give that impression. Rather, when posts start sounding like a broken record, I start to wonder what the point is. My questions aren't meant as a personal attack on anyone. I totally get that people are frustrated. I don't mind them expressing it. Like you, I just want the team to win. Apologies if any of this came across as me saying I don't want people to talk about the team. Not my intention in the least.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
What would another GM do?
446263746272010 wrote: Serious question here...what's the point? I mean, those who are claiming the team doesn't spend any money and is cheap (and, frankly, I agree with you...I tend to support the FO, and I hardly lay blame at their feet for Kang, Marte, and Taillon...but it's clear that this team is deficient and they are not spending sufficient money commiserate with their stadium, attendance figures, market size, and TV deals), what's the point?
Are we just venting? Are we trying to pressure Nutting into spending more money? Are we trying to pressure him into selling the team?
I only ask because, personally, I've never seen any value in venting just to vent. If people need to do it, fine, but I like to have an actual plan to accomplish an objective. So, that's my question. What's the objective here? And once we identify the objective, how do we go about accomplishing it?
If there is no objective, and we just throw up our hands and say, "Well, there's nothing I can do. I'm not Bob Nutting or in the Pirates FO," then fine. I can live with that. But let's call it what it is...venting just to vent.
Don't mean for this to come off the wrong way...I sincerely want to know.
At least for me it is at least partially driven because many think the team is trying its best to win and just falling short. I find that almost as frustrating as the team and go back to when I was becoming a fan and reading baseball magazines in the 1970's.
I soon realized after a couple seasons that many of the magazines were written in a way to show that every team was going to be greatly improved from the previous year (rosy glasses outlook). I think Fangraphs, and current sources and articles are more realistic about teams and their chances of winning.
OK...but again, I'd ask...to what end? I mean, no disrespect, but what's the point of convincing other posters from a practical standpoint? Is it just to win an argument, or is there a greater purpose in mind, like organizing a walkout, protest, or boycott?
Listen, I'm with you. I see from a distance the excitement around the Pens, and the Pens have won four Cups (hopefully five soon) since the Pirates last won a World Series. But people are pumped about that team. I can only imagine what the Pirates in the World Series would do for the city. Nutting has to see that, too.
I would love for him to sell the team to an owner who will actually put up the necessary capital to field a competitive team. (Leaving aside all of the arguments about spending just to spend, having younger more cost-controlled players, etc.). But I don't see that happening. Remember the article a few years ago that said, essentially, when the Nuttings own something, they own it forever?
So, here's the point...short of that happening, why all the angst? If it's to convince other fans, again, to what end? Is OBN just an extension of the sports bar? Or is there a greater purpose here? But ranting and raving on a message board surely has about as much influence on Nutting as the Notre Dame walkout will have on Trump/Pence...maybe even less.
So, concretely, what--if anything--can be done to either move Nutting to invest heavily in the team--maybe even take a financial loss--or to sell to someone who can and will?
Because personally, I'm tired. I'm tired of being a fan of this team. I'm tired of the ups and downs of a baseball season. I'm tired of being a AAAA team, and having to have everything break right to be competitive. I can tolerate a down year. Even a down five years. What I can't tolerate is not trying...and it doesn't appear to me that the Pirates are even trying to field a competitive team right now. Honestly never thought I'd say that.
So...if we can affect some measurable change in the FO's MO, then great. I'm on board. If not, then frankly, I have far better things to do with my time. Life is too short to stress over a baseball team that is content with being the Washington Generals every year and a league that lets them do it with impunity.
why make any comments on the team then? I don't stress over the team (or any other team). I just want them to win.
In general I think it is talking about what we think it will take for the team to win.
I would add to Ia - I hope you don't let the fate of this organization drive you away. I refuse to let Nutting or anyone else kill my love of the game or the Pirates. It may take a 100 years, but the Pirates will rise up again.
And you are right - the Pen's sort of make the Pirates standout in ineptitude. Following the Pens is a blast. But no more so than when the Pirates turned around. Still, the greatest sporting even I've ever been to is the Pirates beating the Reds in the WC - this city will EXPLODE if the Pirates ever win a WS.
Are we just venting? Are we trying to pressure Nutting into spending more money? Are we trying to pressure him into selling the team?
I only ask because, personally, I've never seen any value in venting just to vent. If people need to do it, fine, but I like to have an actual plan to accomplish an objective. So, that's my question. What's the objective here? And once we identify the objective, how do we go about accomplishing it?
If there is no objective, and we just throw up our hands and say, "Well, there's nothing I can do. I'm not Bob Nutting or in the Pirates FO," then fine. I can live with that. But let's call it what it is...venting just to vent.
Don't mean for this to come off the wrong way...I sincerely want to know.
At least for me it is at least partially driven because many think the team is trying its best to win and just falling short. I find that almost as frustrating as the team and go back to when I was becoming a fan and reading baseball magazines in the 1970's.
I soon realized after a couple seasons that many of the magazines were written in a way to show that every team was going to be greatly improved from the previous year (rosy glasses outlook). I think Fangraphs, and current sources and articles are more realistic about teams and their chances of winning.
OK...but again, I'd ask...to what end? I mean, no disrespect, but what's the point of convincing other posters from a practical standpoint? Is it just to win an argument, or is there a greater purpose in mind, like organizing a walkout, protest, or boycott?
Listen, I'm with you. I see from a distance the excitement around the Pens, and the Pens have won four Cups (hopefully five soon) since the Pirates last won a World Series. But people are pumped about that team. I can only imagine what the Pirates in the World Series would do for the city. Nutting has to see that, too.
I would love for him to sell the team to an owner who will actually put up the necessary capital to field a competitive team. (Leaving aside all of the arguments about spending just to spend, having younger more cost-controlled players, etc.). But I don't see that happening. Remember the article a few years ago that said, essentially, when the Nuttings own something, they own it forever?
So, here's the point...short of that happening, why all the angst? If it's to convince other fans, again, to what end? Is OBN just an extension of the sports bar? Or is there a greater purpose here? But ranting and raving on a message board surely has about as much influence on Nutting as the Notre Dame walkout will have on Trump/Pence...maybe even less.
So, concretely, what--if anything--can be done to either move Nutting to invest heavily in the team--maybe even take a financial loss--or to sell to someone who can and will?
Because personally, I'm tired. I'm tired of being a fan of this team. I'm tired of the ups and downs of a baseball season. I'm tired of being a AAAA team, and having to have everything break right to be competitive. I can tolerate a down year. Even a down five years. What I can't tolerate is not trying...and it doesn't appear to me that the Pirates are even trying to field a competitive team right now. Honestly never thought I'd say that.
So...if we can affect some measurable change in the FO's MO, then great. I'm on board. If not, then frankly, I have far better things to do with my time. Life is too short to stress over a baseball team that is content with being the Washington Generals every year and a league that lets them do it with impunity.
why make any comments on the team then? I don't stress over the team (or any other team). I just want them to win.
In general I think it is talking about what we think it will take for the team to win.
I would add to Ia - I hope you don't let the fate of this organization drive you away. I refuse to let Nutting or anyone else kill my love of the game or the Pirates. It may take a 100 years, but the Pirates will rise up again.
And you are right - the Pen's sort of make the Pirates standout in ineptitude. Following the Pens is a blast. But no more so than when the Pirates turned around. Still, the greatest sporting even I've ever been to is the Pirates beating the Reds in the WC - this city will EXPLODE if the Pirates ever win a WS.
What would another GM do?
1D1516213712353A540 wrote: I guess I'm not saying so much, "Why make comments?" I don't want to give that impression. Rather, when posts start sounding like a broken record, I start to wonder what the point is. My questions aren't meant as a personal attack on anyone. I totally get that people are frustrated. I don't mind them expressing it. Like you, I just want the team to win. Apologies if any of this came across as me saying I don't want people to talk about the team. Not my intention in the least.
You know, if you really want to get into the "broken record" aspect of pirates messages boards and/or blogs, I'd suggest the following:
"We spent more money than last year, so they did increase payroll!"
Then when they don't spend more money than last year it's a quick transition to one of two options:
1) "there was nobody available to spend on that would have made the team better"
Or my personal fav
2) "they could have spent less and didn't, so it's not about the money"
The long road of ownership / organization defense and apologism is littered with the same dead horses and broken records since 2007. Many of them since 91'
Over and over again it goes. What's the point of it? To try to win an argument on behalf of an org that can win a pennant in two generations?
So perhaps some are asking the wrong questions. Instead of "why complain?" perhaps the better question is "why carry the water for these losers?"
You know, if you really want to get into the "broken record" aspect of pirates messages boards and/or blogs, I'd suggest the following:
"We spent more money than last year, so they did increase payroll!"
Then when they don't spend more money than last year it's a quick transition to one of two options:
1) "there was nobody available to spend on that would have made the team better"
Or my personal fav
2) "they could have spent less and didn't, so it's not about the money"
The long road of ownership / organization defense and apologism is littered with the same dead horses and broken records since 2007. Many of them since 91'
Over and over again it goes. What's the point of it? To try to win an argument on behalf of an org that can win a pennant in two generations?
So perhaps some are asking the wrong questions. Instead of "why complain?" perhaps the better question is "why carry the water for these losers?"
What would another GM do?
4C4B5D555B4C0B077E59535F5752105D51533E0 wrote: Serious question here...what's the point? I mean, those who are claiming the team doesn't spend any money and is cheap (and, frankly, I agree with you...I tend to support the FO, and I hardly lay blame at their feet for Kang, Marte, and Taillon...but it's clear that this team is deficient and they are not spending sufficient money commiserate with their stadium, attendance figures, market size, and TV deals), what's the point?
Are we just venting? Are we trying to pressure Nutting into spending more money? Are we trying to pressure him into selling the team?
I only ask because, personally, I've never seen any value in venting just to vent. If people need to do it, fine, but I like to have an actual plan to accomplish an objective. So, that's my question. What's the objective here? And once we identify the objective, how do we go about accomplishing it?
If there is no objective, and we just throw up our hands and say, "Well, there's nothing I can do. I'm not Bob Nutting or in the Pirates FO," then fine. I can live with that. But let's call it what it is...venting just to vent.
Don't mean for this to come off the wrong way...I sincerely want to know.
At least for me it is at least partially driven because many think the team is trying its best to win and just falling short. I find that almost as frustrating as the team and go back to when I was becoming a fan and reading baseball magazines in the 1970's.
I soon realized after a couple seasons that many of the magazines were written in a way to show that every team was going to be greatly improved from the previous year (rosy glasses outlook). I think Fangraphs, and current sources and articles are more realistic about teams and their chances of winning.
OK...but again, I'd ask...to what end? I mean, no disrespect, but what's the point of convincing other posters from a practical standpoint? Is it just to win an argument, or is there a greater purpose in mind, like organizing a walkout, protest, or boycott?
Listen, I'm with you. I see from a distance the excitement around the Pens, and the Pens have won four Cups (hopefully five soon) since the Pirates last won a World Series. But people are pumped about that team. I can only imagine what the Pirates in the World Series would do for the city. Nutting has to see that, too.
I would love for him to sell the team to an owner who will actually put up the necessary capital to field a competitive team. (Leaving aside all of the arguments about spending just to spend, having younger more cost-controlled players, etc.). But I don't see that happening. Remember the article a few years ago that said, essentially, when the Nuttings own something, they own it forever?
So, here's the point...short of that happening, why all the angst? If it's to convince other fans, again, to what end? Is OBN just an extension of the sports bar? Or is there a greater purpose here? But ranting and raving on a message board surely has about as much influence on Nutting as the Notre Dame walkout will have on Trump/Pence...maybe even less.
So, concretely, what--if anything--can be done to either move Nutting to invest heavily in the team--maybe even take a financial loss--or to sell to someone who can and will?
Because personally, I'm tired. I'm tired of being a fan of this team. I'm tired of the ups and downs of a baseball season. I'm tired of being a AAAA team, and having to have everything break right to be competitive. I can tolerate a down year. Even a down five years. What I can't tolerate is not trying...and it doesn't appear to me that the Pirates are even trying to field a competitive team right now. Honestly never thought I'd say that.
So...if we can affect some measurable change in the FO's MO, then great. I'm on board. If not, then frankly, I have far better things to do with my time. Life is too short to stress over a baseball team that is content with being the Washington Generals every year and a league that lets them do it with impunity.
why make any comments on the team then? I don't stress over the team (or any other team). I just want them to win.
In general I think it is talking about what we think it will take for the team to win.
I would add to Ia - I hope you don't let the fate of this organization drive you away. I refuse to let Nutting or anyone else kill my love of the game or the Pirates. It may take a 100 years, but the Pirates will rise up again.
And you are right - the Pen's sort of make the Pirates standout in ineptitude. Following the Pens is a blast. But no more so than when the Pirates turned around. Still, the greatest sporting even I've ever been to is the Pirates beating the Reds in the WC - this city will EXPLODE if the Pirates ever win a WS.
See I don't understand why we collectively somehow are obligated to support this laughingstock with dollars and time because they're "our team".
The fans came out in record numbers when they got competitive. They said they would spend when that happened to bolster the team and make a run. They never got above 24th in payroll. While they signed Ryan Vogelsong and a bullpen pitcher (nicasio) to be 40% of the 2016 rotation.
Why should anyone not be driven away from the team and/or the park?
Are we just venting? Are we trying to pressure Nutting into spending more money? Are we trying to pressure him into selling the team?
I only ask because, personally, I've never seen any value in venting just to vent. If people need to do it, fine, but I like to have an actual plan to accomplish an objective. So, that's my question. What's the objective here? And once we identify the objective, how do we go about accomplishing it?
If there is no objective, and we just throw up our hands and say, "Well, there's nothing I can do. I'm not Bob Nutting or in the Pirates FO," then fine. I can live with that. But let's call it what it is...venting just to vent.
Don't mean for this to come off the wrong way...I sincerely want to know.
At least for me it is at least partially driven because many think the team is trying its best to win and just falling short. I find that almost as frustrating as the team and go back to when I was becoming a fan and reading baseball magazines in the 1970's.
I soon realized after a couple seasons that many of the magazines were written in a way to show that every team was going to be greatly improved from the previous year (rosy glasses outlook). I think Fangraphs, and current sources and articles are more realistic about teams and their chances of winning.
OK...but again, I'd ask...to what end? I mean, no disrespect, but what's the point of convincing other posters from a practical standpoint? Is it just to win an argument, or is there a greater purpose in mind, like organizing a walkout, protest, or boycott?
Listen, I'm with you. I see from a distance the excitement around the Pens, and the Pens have won four Cups (hopefully five soon) since the Pirates last won a World Series. But people are pumped about that team. I can only imagine what the Pirates in the World Series would do for the city. Nutting has to see that, too.
I would love for him to sell the team to an owner who will actually put up the necessary capital to field a competitive team. (Leaving aside all of the arguments about spending just to spend, having younger more cost-controlled players, etc.). But I don't see that happening. Remember the article a few years ago that said, essentially, when the Nuttings own something, they own it forever?
So, here's the point...short of that happening, why all the angst? If it's to convince other fans, again, to what end? Is OBN just an extension of the sports bar? Or is there a greater purpose here? But ranting and raving on a message board surely has about as much influence on Nutting as the Notre Dame walkout will have on Trump/Pence...maybe even less.
So, concretely, what--if anything--can be done to either move Nutting to invest heavily in the team--maybe even take a financial loss--or to sell to someone who can and will?
Because personally, I'm tired. I'm tired of being a fan of this team. I'm tired of the ups and downs of a baseball season. I'm tired of being a AAAA team, and having to have everything break right to be competitive. I can tolerate a down year. Even a down five years. What I can't tolerate is not trying...and it doesn't appear to me that the Pirates are even trying to field a competitive team right now. Honestly never thought I'd say that.
So...if we can affect some measurable change in the FO's MO, then great. I'm on board. If not, then frankly, I have far better things to do with my time. Life is too short to stress over a baseball team that is content with being the Washington Generals every year and a league that lets them do it with impunity.
why make any comments on the team then? I don't stress over the team (or any other team). I just want them to win.
In general I think it is talking about what we think it will take for the team to win.
I would add to Ia - I hope you don't let the fate of this organization drive you away. I refuse to let Nutting or anyone else kill my love of the game or the Pirates. It may take a 100 years, but the Pirates will rise up again.
And you are right - the Pen's sort of make the Pirates standout in ineptitude. Following the Pens is a blast. But no more so than when the Pirates turned around. Still, the greatest sporting even I've ever been to is the Pirates beating the Reds in the WC - this city will EXPLODE if the Pirates ever win a WS.
See I don't understand why we collectively somehow are obligated to support this laughingstock with dollars and time because they're "our team".
The fans came out in record numbers when they got competitive. They said they would spend when that happened to bolster the team and make a run. They never got above 24th in payroll. While they signed Ryan Vogelsong and a bullpen pitcher (nicasio) to be 40% of the 2016 rotation.
Why should anyone not be driven away from the team and/or the park?
-
iwatch
What would another GM do?
Here's where I stand (for what it's worth). Like IaBucs has expressed, I followed the Pirates (and Steelers) religiously for about 35 years but a few years back I realized that when the game loses its joy for me, it's time to turn away. I've pushed professional sports to a backseat position in life. I watch but, I don't live and die with it. This year, however, the extreme low quality of performance (routine errors in abundance, catchers playing everywhere but catcher, the most exciting bat being removed for defensive purposes with the replacement being not substantially better, and the suspension for drunkenness and PED use) has made this team unwatchable. They should re-do the Pirate symbol to have a patch over BOTH eyes.
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rucker59@gmail.com
What would another GM do?
525B53424C360 wrote: Serious question here...what's the point? I mean, those who are claiming the team doesn't spend any money and is cheap (and, frankly, I agree with you...I tend to support the FO, and I hardly lay blame at their feet for Kang, Marte, and Taillon...but it's clear that this team is deficient and they are not spending sufficient money commiserate with their stadium, attendance figures, market size, and TV deals), what's the point?
Are we just venting? Are we trying to pressure Nutting into spending more money? Are we trying to pressure him into selling the team?
I only ask because, personally, I've never seen any value in venting just to vent. If people need to do it, fine, but I like to have an actual plan to accomplish an objective. So, that's my question. What's the objective here? And once we identify the objective, how do we go about accomplishing it?
If there is no objective, and we just throw up our hands and say, "Well, there's nothing I can do. I'm not Bob Nutting or in the Pirates FO," then fine. I can live with that. But let's call it what it is...venting just to vent.
Don't mean for this to come off the wrong way...I sincerely want to know.
At least for me it is at least partially driven because many think the team is trying its best to win and just falling short. I find that almost as frustrating as the team and go back to when I was becoming a fan and reading baseball magazines in the 1970's.
I soon realized after a couple seasons that many of the magazines were written in a way to show that every team was going to be greatly improved from the previous year (rosy glasses outlook). I think Fangraphs, and current sources and articles are more realistic about teams and their chances of winning.
OK...but again, I'd ask...to what end? I mean, no disrespect, but what's the point of convincing other posters from a practical standpoint? Is it just to win an argument, or is there a greater purpose in mind, like organizing a walkout, protest, or boycott?
Listen, I'm with you. I see from a distance the excitement around the Pens, and the Pens have won four Cups (hopefully five soon) since the Pirates last won a World Series. But people are pumped about that team. I can only imagine what the Pirates in the World Series would do for the city. Nutting has to see that, too.
I would love for him to sell the team to an owner who will actually put up the necessary capital to field a competitive team. (Leaving aside all of the arguments about spending just to spend, having younger more cost-controlled players, etc.). But I don't see that happening. Remember the article a few years ago that said, essentially, when the Nuttings own something, they own it forever?
So, here's the point...short of that happening, why all the angst? If it's to convince other fans, again, to what end? Is OBN just an extension of the sports bar? Or is there a greater purpose here? But ranting and raving on a message board surely has about as much influence on Nutting as the Notre Dame walkout will have on Trump/Pence...maybe even less.
So, concretely, what--if anything--can be done to either move Nutting to invest heavily in the team--maybe even take a financial loss--or to sell to someone who can and will?
Because personally, I'm tired. I'm tired of being a fan of this team. I'm tired of the ups and downs of a baseball season. I'm tired of being a AAAA team, and having to have everything break right to be competitive. I can tolerate a down year. Even a down five years. What I can't tolerate is not trying...and it doesn't appear to me that the Pirates are even trying to field a competitive team right now. Honestly never thought I'd say that.
So...if we can affect some measurable change in the FO's MO, then great. I'm on board. If not, then frankly, I have far better things to do with my time. Life is too short to stress over a baseball team that is content with being the Washington Generals every year and a league that lets them do it with impunity.
why make any comments on the team then? I don't stress over the team (or any other team). I just want them to win.
In general I think it is talking about what we think it will take for the team to win.
I would add to Ia - I hope you don't let the fate of this organization drive you away. I refuse to let Nutting or anyone else kill my love of the game or the Pirates. It may take a 100 years, but the Pirates will rise up again.
And you are right - the Pen's sort of make the Pirates standout in ineptitude. Following the Pens is a blast. But no more so than when the Pirates turned around. Still, the greatest sporting even I've ever been to is the Pirates beating the Reds in the WC - this city will EXPLODE if the Pirates ever win a WS.
See I don't understand why we collectively somehow are obligated to support this laughingstock with dollars and time because they're "our team".
The fans came out in record numbers when they got competitive. They said they would spend when that happened to bolster the team and make a run. They never got above 24th in payroll. While they signed Ryan Vogelsong and a bullpen pitcher (nicasio) to be 40% of the 2016 rotation.
Why should anyone not be driven away from the team and/or the park?
I absolutely understand your point. I've been thinking through this on my end over the past year because this ownership was close to killing my love of the Pirates. Just recently I filled out a SEason Ticket owner survey (first time I've ever received one like this) asking why I'm satisfied or more importantly not satisfied - I made it clear that my years of holding ST will be up for serious review this year since my son will be going off to collage, and the management of this team is doing everything possible to push me away. So I absolutely get where you're coming from.
But as I was thinking through this over the winter I realized the only loser in my walking away is me. Obviously Nutting can not care less; MLB revenue sharing probably kicks in if I walk away. For me this became a matter of principle : I'm not letting Nutting kill my personal enjoyment of Pirates baseball. It's in my blood and ever present for 6 months a year. I don't obsess. I roll with good and bad, but I truly enjoy the flow of the season, day by day. I'm not letting Nutting steal that away from me.
Are we just venting? Are we trying to pressure Nutting into spending more money? Are we trying to pressure him into selling the team?
I only ask because, personally, I've never seen any value in venting just to vent. If people need to do it, fine, but I like to have an actual plan to accomplish an objective. So, that's my question. What's the objective here? And once we identify the objective, how do we go about accomplishing it?
If there is no objective, and we just throw up our hands and say, "Well, there's nothing I can do. I'm not Bob Nutting or in the Pirates FO," then fine. I can live with that. But let's call it what it is...venting just to vent.
Don't mean for this to come off the wrong way...I sincerely want to know.
At least for me it is at least partially driven because many think the team is trying its best to win and just falling short. I find that almost as frustrating as the team and go back to when I was becoming a fan and reading baseball magazines in the 1970's.
I soon realized after a couple seasons that many of the magazines were written in a way to show that every team was going to be greatly improved from the previous year (rosy glasses outlook). I think Fangraphs, and current sources and articles are more realistic about teams and their chances of winning.
OK...but again, I'd ask...to what end? I mean, no disrespect, but what's the point of convincing other posters from a practical standpoint? Is it just to win an argument, or is there a greater purpose in mind, like organizing a walkout, protest, or boycott?
Listen, I'm with you. I see from a distance the excitement around the Pens, and the Pens have won four Cups (hopefully five soon) since the Pirates last won a World Series. But people are pumped about that team. I can only imagine what the Pirates in the World Series would do for the city. Nutting has to see that, too.
I would love for him to sell the team to an owner who will actually put up the necessary capital to field a competitive team. (Leaving aside all of the arguments about spending just to spend, having younger more cost-controlled players, etc.). But I don't see that happening. Remember the article a few years ago that said, essentially, when the Nuttings own something, they own it forever?
So, here's the point...short of that happening, why all the angst? If it's to convince other fans, again, to what end? Is OBN just an extension of the sports bar? Or is there a greater purpose here? But ranting and raving on a message board surely has about as much influence on Nutting as the Notre Dame walkout will have on Trump/Pence...maybe even less.
So, concretely, what--if anything--can be done to either move Nutting to invest heavily in the team--maybe even take a financial loss--or to sell to someone who can and will?
Because personally, I'm tired. I'm tired of being a fan of this team. I'm tired of the ups and downs of a baseball season. I'm tired of being a AAAA team, and having to have everything break right to be competitive. I can tolerate a down year. Even a down five years. What I can't tolerate is not trying...and it doesn't appear to me that the Pirates are even trying to field a competitive team right now. Honestly never thought I'd say that.
So...if we can affect some measurable change in the FO's MO, then great. I'm on board. If not, then frankly, I have far better things to do with my time. Life is too short to stress over a baseball team that is content with being the Washington Generals every year and a league that lets them do it with impunity.
why make any comments on the team then? I don't stress over the team (or any other team). I just want them to win.
In general I think it is talking about what we think it will take for the team to win.
I would add to Ia - I hope you don't let the fate of this organization drive you away. I refuse to let Nutting or anyone else kill my love of the game or the Pirates. It may take a 100 years, but the Pirates will rise up again.
And you are right - the Pen's sort of make the Pirates standout in ineptitude. Following the Pens is a blast. But no more so than when the Pirates turned around. Still, the greatest sporting even I've ever been to is the Pirates beating the Reds in the WC - this city will EXPLODE if the Pirates ever win a WS.
See I don't understand why we collectively somehow are obligated to support this laughingstock with dollars and time because they're "our team".
The fans came out in record numbers when they got competitive. They said they would spend when that happened to bolster the team and make a run. They never got above 24th in payroll. While they signed Ryan Vogelsong and a bullpen pitcher (nicasio) to be 40% of the 2016 rotation.
Why should anyone not be driven away from the team and/or the park?
I absolutely understand your point. I've been thinking through this on my end over the past year because this ownership was close to killing my love of the Pirates. Just recently I filled out a SEason Ticket owner survey (first time I've ever received one like this) asking why I'm satisfied or more importantly not satisfied - I made it clear that my years of holding ST will be up for serious review this year since my son will be going off to collage, and the management of this team is doing everything possible to push me away. So I absolutely get where you're coming from.
But as I was thinking through this over the winter I realized the only loser in my walking away is me. Obviously Nutting can not care less; MLB revenue sharing probably kicks in if I walk away. For me this became a matter of principle : I'm not letting Nutting kill my personal enjoyment of Pirates baseball. It's in my blood and ever present for 6 months a year. I don't obsess. I roll with good and bad, but I truly enjoy the flow of the season, day by day. I'm not letting Nutting steal that away from me.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
What would another GM do?
485640554249210 wrote: Here's where I stand (for what it's worth). Like IaBucs has expressed, I followed the Pirates (and Steelers) religiously for about 35 years but a few years back I realized that when the game loses its joy for me, it's time to turn away. I've pushed professional sports to a backseat position in life. I watch but, I don't live and die with it. This year, however, the extreme low quality of performance (routine errors in abundance, catchers playing everywhere but catcher, the most exciting bat being removed for defensive purposes with the replacement being not substantially better, and the suspension for drunkenness and PED use) has made this team unwatchable. They should re-do the Pirate symbol to have a patch over BOTH eyes.
;D
Your description of this year is hilarious and at the same time completely accurate. There is absolutely no way to put lipstick on this pig. Last night, let's hear it for Can't Trade No Matter What Polanco "playing" a ball into a 2 RBI double for the Mets. It's absurd. But not one word from anybody in the FO about this train wreck we've paid $$$$ for.
Finally, most people will no longer defend this "team" (though some continue to defend ownership in such away that I can only assume they stand to eventually inherit part of the family fortune), but only because it has become so absurd that no one can defend the team.
But this team would still be messed up if they somehow were playing with the Brewers. I recognized during the Yankee series mid-April that, as I said then, the Pirates didn't belong on the same field. It was all right-there for anyone to see, but I was jumped that I was being unfair etc. 98 wins does not mean the team couldn't have won 100 and a division and maybe we'd have a WS right now. But instead of competitive fire to be the best we can be there is now nothing but excuses from the FO and other quarters.
Here's what I don't know if Nutting understands: he is on the verge of KILLING this franchise. Even on this thread, life long Pirate fans are ready to walk away from the amateur product on the field. With apparently no concern from our Billionaire Owner.
I'm not leaving, and I hate that others will, but I surely understand those that do. All because our owner by all objective stds is really only competing in one game - ROI. It would appear he's already won that WS.
;D
Your description of this year is hilarious and at the same time completely accurate. There is absolutely no way to put lipstick on this pig. Last night, let's hear it for Can't Trade No Matter What Polanco "playing" a ball into a 2 RBI double for the Mets. It's absurd. But not one word from anybody in the FO about this train wreck we've paid $$$$ for.
Finally, most people will no longer defend this "team" (though some continue to defend ownership in such away that I can only assume they stand to eventually inherit part of the family fortune), but only because it has become so absurd that no one can defend the team.
But this team would still be messed up if they somehow were playing with the Brewers. I recognized during the Yankee series mid-April that, as I said then, the Pirates didn't belong on the same field. It was all right-there for anyone to see, but I was jumped that I was being unfair etc. 98 wins does not mean the team couldn't have won 100 and a division and maybe we'd have a WS right now. But instead of competitive fire to be the best we can be there is now nothing but excuses from the FO and other quarters.
Here's what I don't know if Nutting understands: he is on the verge of KILLING this franchise. Even on this thread, life long Pirate fans are ready to walk away from the amateur product on the field. With apparently no concern from our Billionaire Owner.
I'm not leaving, and I hate that others will, but I surely understand those that do. All because our owner by all objective stds is really only competing in one game - ROI. It would appear he's already won that WS.