684E4F584E5E2D0 wrote: Next season - pieces will start to come together. They’ll still lose a bunch of games, but the framework of a team will start to appear.
2023 - a real team takes the field.
I’ll say this: I’ve never met BC, but I know people who know him well. I’ve been told that he feels very good about the rebuild in the minors and plans for the major league team. This guy does know something about baseball. If he’s feeling good about how everything is developing then I feel good.
this is the best case scenario and I hope it is correct. Show that the team is buiding in 20233 and then in add for 2023. The 2023 team should be around 500 and contending in 2024.
Agreed.
What I don’t understand is the idea that BC or anyone for that matter, could have possibly turned this team into a contender by 2022. Simply impossible.
When Bob Nutting talked to Ben; pick one of these two scenarios:
BN: Ben, I’m a reasonable man, I don’t expect miracles, just profits. I’m giving you TWO years to spend more money than you can imagine, say $50M a year! And you don’t have to do anything spectacular, just get the ol Nutting Profit Meter up and clicking away by say 2022. I make profits, you make a very good living!”
BC: “well gee Mr Nutting, I never thought….I don’t know, can I have maybe 24 hours to talk this over with my wife….no, WAIT, I see what you’re doing you miserable old man and I’m NOT for sale. The answer is ‘NO’ Mr Nutting”.
#2
BN - Ben, I’m not a baseball guy. But I am a businessman. I need someone who can build a baseball team in a business like way. I hear a lot of good things about you, that you can build something new. Let’s take a look at what we have to work with, including budgets.”
BC: “Bob, if I take this Job I have no intention of focusing on your margin. I will focus upon building a champion, within your financial means. It can not be done with chicken wire and magic rubber compound. This entire organization will need to be rebuilt, ground up. There are no shortcuts for a championship. Only a good plan executed perfectly. You should expect four years, minimum, before a truly competitive Pirate team takes the field. We may not win a WS, but every move I make will be to win a WS. Nothing else matters to me.”
BN: “do you think it’s possible to win a WS in Pittsburgh?”
BC: “absolutely, but only if that is the goal and The Plan is followed.”
BN: “is there a chance you would take this job, if I commit to your plan?”
BC: “I would love to rebuild this franchise. I want Pittsburgh to celebrate a WS.”
BN: “You’re my guy, you have my support! BTW, you could go to a lot of places and have an easier job. Why are you so willing to accept this challenge?”
BC: “Because when the Pirates win the WS, it will be the greatest baseball story ever; the jobs in Boston and Wriggly will look like child’s play in comparison. I want to beat the Yankees for the WS, and I want to beat Theo for the greatest rebuild in history. I believe I can do it. The pirates are a unique opportunity for me!”
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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GreenWeenie
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Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
I think that you and I AGREE.
I read above where someone wrote that he thought we'd be contending/competitive/whatever by 2023, or words to that effect. But, "contending" means different things to different people. Being "competitive" during games is one thiing. Being competitive for the commissioner's trophy is something else.
So, my 2023 expectations are lower, not higher, than some of the opinions that I've been reading. Frankly, they're probably a little lower than a lot of them.
My point was that to take the club from here- 35.5 games out.....to there.....in two years....I just don't see that happening as soon. I just don't.
If Cherington can do THAT, then I'll gladly take back most of my previous comments.
I read above where someone wrote that he thought we'd be contending/competitive/whatever by 2023, or words to that effect. But, "contending" means different things to different people. Being "competitive" during games is one thiing. Being competitive for the commissioner's trophy is something else.
So, my 2023 expectations are lower, not higher, than some of the opinions that I've been reading. Frankly, they're probably a little lower than a lot of them.
My point was that to take the club from here- 35.5 games out.....to there.....in two years....I just don't see that happening as soon. I just don't.
If Cherington can do THAT, then I'll gladly take back most of my previous comments.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
1C293E3E350C3E3E35323E5B0 wrote: My expectations are no more impossible than the majority, so we can argue that point. What do you think they are?
What I wrote on the onset of the season that I felt- and, continue to think- that the roster could have been improved by three posistions before the season began. If you think that was unrealistic, then the franchise- not the team- is in very poor condition. Considering that Nutting has held onto the franchise for as long as he has, I highly doubt that's the case.
Furthermore, it is other people who are writing of their expectations of 2023. I was commenting on that. To the best of my knowledge, I haven't stated mine.
I especially enjoy the "demand" comment. I've demanded nothing. That diminishes your case.
What I wrote is that it's a very high chore to make this roster "competitive" (which no one has defined, by the way) within two seasons. I think my point is more accurate than the comments you're writing here.
Will we be more "competitive" in games in 2023? Probably. Will we be more "competitive" for post-season advancement in 2023? I wouldn't count on that.
But, go on.
Your goal is simply different than mine.
You wanted to improve three positions this year? Dave Littlefield could do that.
What does this 3 position improvement accomplish? And what kind of improvement are you expecting? How do you turn this simple plan into something that can play for championships in say…two years? How about 3 years? How about 10 years. How does the budget look with this ever improving lineup in 2 years, in 3 years, in 10 years?
It seems so simple, so let’s improve on your plan: rather than improve 3 positions, let’s improve 5 this year and 5 next year. And to make sure this improvement really means something, each new addition will be a 3+war player.
Heck, you’re right. It’s simple. I like your plan…
What I wrote on the onset of the season that I felt- and, continue to think- that the roster could have been improved by three posistions before the season began. If you think that was unrealistic, then the franchise- not the team- is in very poor condition. Considering that Nutting has held onto the franchise for as long as he has, I highly doubt that's the case.
Furthermore, it is other people who are writing of their expectations of 2023. I was commenting on that. To the best of my knowledge, I haven't stated mine.
I especially enjoy the "demand" comment. I've demanded nothing. That diminishes your case.
What I wrote is that it's a very high chore to make this roster "competitive" (which no one has defined, by the way) within two seasons. I think my point is more accurate than the comments you're writing here.
Will we be more "competitive" in games in 2023? Probably. Will we be more "competitive" for post-season advancement in 2023? I wouldn't count on that.
But, go on.
Your goal is simply different than mine.
You wanted to improve three positions this year? Dave Littlefield could do that.
What does this 3 position improvement accomplish? And what kind of improvement are you expecting? How do you turn this simple plan into something that can play for championships in say…two years? How about 3 years? How about 10 years. How does the budget look with this ever improving lineup in 2 years, in 3 years, in 10 years?
It seems so simple, so let’s improve on your plan: rather than improve 3 positions, let’s improve 5 this year and 5 next year. And to make sure this improvement really means something, each new addition will be a 3+war player.
Heck, you’re right. It’s simple. I like your plan…
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
It's not worthwhile to re-hash that. What we could have done/what we should have done....it's been excessively repetitive and the result is the same- meaningless.
What IS important is what was done. Everyone knew the likely outcome- THIS- almost amateurish play by multiple players, and a bottom-five probable finish.
Everyone who follows the club as closely as we do understands the club's direction, so the debate on what should have been done before the season began has no benefit.
Thank you for writing what I haven't. I don't recall anyone saying that this is "simple." Talent evaluation and club formation isn't "simple." If it was, anyone would achieve.
At least within 42 years.
What IS important is what was done. Everyone knew the likely outcome- THIS- almost amateurish play by multiple players, and a bottom-five probable finish.
Everyone who follows the club as closely as we do understands the club's direction, so the debate on what should have been done before the season began has no benefit.
Thank you for writing what I haven't. I don't recall anyone saying that this is "simple." Talent evaluation and club formation isn't "simple." If it was, anyone would achieve.
At least within 42 years.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
0F3A2D2D261F2D2D26212D480 wrote: I think that you and I AGREE.
I read above where someone wrote that he thought we'd be contending/competitive/whatever by 2023, or words to that effect. But, "contending" means different things to different people. Being "competitive" during games is one thiing. Being competitive for the commissioner's trophy is something else.
So, my 2023 expectations are lower, not higher, than some of the opinions that I've been reading. Frankly, they're probably a little lower than a lot of them.
My point was that to take the club from here- 35.5 games out.....to there.....in two years....I just don't see that happening as soon. I just don't.
If Cherington can do THAT, then I'll gladly take back most of my previous comments.
Okay, then we are in agreement. [smiley=beer.gif]
I believe 2023 will be the start of the pirate’s competitive “window”. I expect the Pirates to rise fairly quickly starting in 2023.
Maybe 2023 will start to look like a .500 team. .500 doesn’t mean much to me if there is nothing behind it. But if that team is clearly the first step in a rapidly rising organization, then that 500 season will be a blast.
I read above where someone wrote that he thought we'd be contending/competitive/whatever by 2023, or words to that effect. But, "contending" means different things to different people. Being "competitive" during games is one thiing. Being competitive for the commissioner's trophy is something else.
So, my 2023 expectations are lower, not higher, than some of the opinions that I've been reading. Frankly, they're probably a little lower than a lot of them.
My point was that to take the club from here- 35.5 games out.....to there.....in two years....I just don't see that happening as soon. I just don't.
If Cherington can do THAT, then I'll gladly take back most of my previous comments.
Okay, then we are in agreement. [smiley=beer.gif]
I believe 2023 will be the start of the pirate’s competitive “window”. I expect the Pirates to rise fairly quickly starting in 2023.
Maybe 2023 will start to look like a .500 team. .500 doesn’t mean much to me if there is nothing behind it. But if that team is clearly the first step in a rapidly rising organization, then that 500 season will be a blast.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
Sounds reasonable.
It's also reasonable to know that there are 29 other clubs that think the same thing. For a team to rise, another team has to fall some.
That's the beauty of competition. May the best men win. May those best men be Pirates.
It's also reasonable to know that there are 29 other clubs that think the same thing. For a team to rise, another team has to fall some.
That's the beauty of competition. May the best men win. May those best men be Pirates.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
0D382F2F241D2F2F24232F4A0 wrote: It's not worthwhile to re-hash that. What we could have done/what we should have done....it's been excessively repetitive and the result is the same- meaningless.
What IS important is what was done. Everyone knew the likely outcome- THIS- almost amateurish play by multiple players, and a bottom-five probable finish.
Everyone who follows the club as closely as we do understands the club's direction, so the debate on what should have been done before the season began has no benefit.
Thank you for writing what I haven't. I don't recall anyone saying that this is "simple." Talent evaluation and club formation isn't "simple." If it was, anyone would achieve.
At least within 42 years.
With all due respect, you make it sound like I’m on here everyday beating the same horse. Not true. It is you that are making the same complaints about the results of BC’s plan THIS season. You have not been content with the results. Above, you offered an alternative that Ben could have followed that would have satisfied you. The problem is HE DIDNT follow your plan. The results this season are exactly what anyone should expect from his plan.
I’ve got one hope: his plan works. I think the initial steps look better than expected. They give me hope for the future. But as Bobster is correct to point out - whether BC is successful today won’t be known for a couple years down the road.
And just to add: you’ve seen my posts about the amateur results of this team. Just ridiculous. Embarrassing. My hope (and expectation) is that BC is reminding BN that this is what you get when you run a MLB team like you run a regional newspaper.
What IS important is what was done. Everyone knew the likely outcome- THIS- almost amateurish play by multiple players, and a bottom-five probable finish.
Everyone who follows the club as closely as we do understands the club's direction, so the debate on what should have been done before the season began has no benefit.
Thank you for writing what I haven't. I don't recall anyone saying that this is "simple." Talent evaluation and club formation isn't "simple." If it was, anyone would achieve.
At least within 42 years.
With all due respect, you make it sound like I’m on here everyday beating the same horse. Not true. It is you that are making the same complaints about the results of BC’s plan THIS season. You have not been content with the results. Above, you offered an alternative that Ben could have followed that would have satisfied you. The problem is HE DIDNT follow your plan. The results this season are exactly what anyone should expect from his plan.
I’ve got one hope: his plan works. I think the initial steps look better than expected. They give me hope for the future. But as Bobster is correct to point out - whether BC is successful today won’t be known for a couple years down the road.
And just to add: you’ve seen my posts about the amateur results of this team. Just ridiculous. Embarrassing. My hope (and expectation) is that BC is reminding BN that this is what you get when you run a MLB team like you run a regional newspaper.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
I hope the rise begins in 2022. Honestly, it had better begin in 2022. If it doesn't, more folks will tap out.
That doesn't mean by leaps and bounds. It means steps. Even one step. But, it has to start.
That also means different things to different people. For some, it means only a 1 basis point improvement in the WP. To others, it's higher.
Bigger steps in 2023.
That doesn't mean by leaps and bounds. It means steps. Even one step. But, it has to start.
That also means different things to different people. For some, it means only a 1 basis point improvement in the WP. To others, it's higher.
Bigger steps in 2023.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
0A3F2828231A28282324284D0 wrote: Sounds reasonable.
It's also reasonable to know that there are 29 other clubs that think the same thing. For a team to rise, another team has to fall some.
That's the beauty of competition. May the best men win. May those best men be Pirates.
Yep. It will be very hard to be the best of 30 teams. May not make that. But even if the Pirates are the 7th best team, we’ll be talking about meaningful baseball and having a blast.
To get to number 7 even is not easy. BC has to be better than 22 other GMs. I hope he is.
It's also reasonable to know that there are 29 other clubs that think the same thing. For a team to rise, another team has to fall some.
That's the beauty of competition. May the best men win. May those best men be Pirates.
Yep. It will be very hard to be the best of 30 teams. May not make that. But even if the Pirates are the 7th best team, we’ll be talking about meaningful baseball and having a blast.
To get to number 7 even is not easy. BC has to be better than 22 other GMs. I hope he is.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
717660686671363A43646E626A6F2D606C6E030 wrote: It's not worthwhile to re-hash that. What we could have done/what we should have done....it's been excessively repetitive and the result is the same- meaningless.
What IS important is what was done. Everyone knew the likely outcome- THIS- almost amateurish play by multiple players, and a bottom-five probable finish.
Everyone who follows the club as closely as we do understands the club's direction, so the debate on what should have been done before the season began has no benefit.
Thank you for writing what I haven't. I don't recall anyone saying that this is "simple." Talent evaluation and club formation isn't "simple." If it was, anyone would achieve.
At least within 42 years.
With all due respect, you make it sound like I’m on here everyday beating the same horse. Not true. It is you that are making the same complaints about the results of BC’s plan THIS season. You have not been content with the results. Above, you offered an alternative that Ben could have followed that would have satisfied you. The problem is HE DIDNT follow your plan. The results this season are exactly what anyone should expect from his plan.
I’ve got one hope: his plan works. I think the initial steps look better than expected. They give me hope for the future. But as Bobster is correct to point out - whether BC is successful today won’t be known for a couple years down the road.
And just to add: you’ve seen my posts about the amateur results of this team. Just ridiculous. Embarrassing. My hope (and expectation) is that BC is reminding BN that this is what you get when you run a MLB team like you run a regional newspaper.
Truly, I really don't think that you "beat the same horse" every day. I just think that you're a passionate fan who expresses your opinion. That's a good thing.
"Success" is also arbitrary. I think you're right that "true" success will be further along....but, that shouldn't diminish the incremental time that leads up to it. That's just my opinion, and I think that's where the biggest disconnect between Shed and me...and most of the rest of us has been.
What IS important is what was done. Everyone knew the likely outcome- THIS- almost amateurish play by multiple players, and a bottom-five probable finish.
Everyone who follows the club as closely as we do understands the club's direction, so the debate on what should have been done before the season began has no benefit.
Thank you for writing what I haven't. I don't recall anyone saying that this is "simple." Talent evaluation and club formation isn't "simple." If it was, anyone would achieve.
At least within 42 years.
With all due respect, you make it sound like I’m on here everyday beating the same horse. Not true. It is you that are making the same complaints about the results of BC’s plan THIS season. You have not been content with the results. Above, you offered an alternative that Ben could have followed that would have satisfied you. The problem is HE DIDNT follow your plan. The results this season are exactly what anyone should expect from his plan.
I’ve got one hope: his plan works. I think the initial steps look better than expected. They give me hope for the future. But as Bobster is correct to point out - whether BC is successful today won’t be known for a couple years down the road.
And just to add: you’ve seen my posts about the amateur results of this team. Just ridiculous. Embarrassing. My hope (and expectation) is that BC is reminding BN that this is what you get when you run a MLB team like you run a regional newspaper.
Truly, I really don't think that you "beat the same horse" every day. I just think that you're a passionate fan who expresses your opinion. That's a good thing.
"Success" is also arbitrary. I think you're right that "true" success will be further along....but, that shouldn't diminish the incremental time that leads up to it. That's just my opinion, and I think that's where the biggest disconnect between Shed and me...and most of the rest of us has been.