3B3E393F373D243930232528510 wrote: I expect next year to be bad and then the can will be kicked down the road until 2025 before we are any good. A long about 2026, they will fire Cherington and then we(those of us whpo are still living) will have to wait and see how the new GM does until 2030.
We definitely need to see some major improvement in the starting rotation next season before I will feel any optimism, that's for sure.
SP is and will continue to be the biggest problem. Good pitchers cost money and are sought after by much more desireable teams than the Pirates. So the Pirates try to develop their own but fail. Even great pitchers usually struggle their first 3-4 years and free agency kicks in after 6. The 2013-15 winning teams got a great boost from pitchers who appeared to be over the hill when acquired like Melancon, Burnett, Liriano, Volquez and Happ. Without those guys completely and unexpectedly turning their careers around with the Pirates those years would have been just more losing seasons. And that kind of unexpected success can't be planned on. Unless young guys like Contreras and Yajure develop into top of the rotation starters in their first few MLB seasons (doubtful) the Pirates will continue to assemble a rotation from dumpster dives.
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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rucker59@gmail.com
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
Next season - pieces will start to come together. They’ll still lose a bunch of games, but the framework of a team will start to appear.
2023 - a real team takes the field.
I’ll say this: I’ve never met BC, but I know people who know him well. I’ve been told that he feels very good about the rebuild in the minors and plans for the major league team. This guy does know something about baseball. If he’s feeling good about how everything is developing then I feel good.
2023 - a real team takes the field.
I’ll say this: I’ve never met BC, but I know people who know him well. I’ve been told that he feels very good about the rebuild in the minors and plans for the major league team. This guy does know something about baseball. If he’s feeling good about how everything is developing then I feel good.
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Bobster21
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
2E293F37392E69651C3B313D3530723F33315C0 wrote: Next season - pieces will start to come together. They’ll still lose a bunch of games, but the framework of a team will start to appear.
2023 - a real team takes the field.
I’ll say this: I’ve never met BC, but I know people who know him well. I’ve been told that he feels very good about the rebuild in the minors and plans for the major league team. This guy does know something about baseball. If he’s feeling good about how everything is developing then I feel good.
I agree with that timeline since the best prospects are now at AA and A. As for Cherington, I think a broader view is needed. Obviously, he punted on the 2021 MLB season from day 1. it was a lost cause and he focused on the minors. So from a fan's perspective, he earned the criticism on how dreadful this team is. But that wasn't his focus so calls that he should be fired for the W-L record of this year's MLB team are silly. He will succeed or fail based on the efforts he's made, which involve the talent in the minors. So far that looks good but the results in a year or 2 will tell the tail. But in the short term, he's going to have to hear it from the fans about what an awful MLB roster he put together. And that's fair. As long as those fans also realize that he was not hired to compete in 2021.
2023 - a real team takes the field.
I’ll say this: I’ve never met BC, but I know people who know him well. I’ve been told that he feels very good about the rebuild in the minors and plans for the major league team. This guy does know something about baseball. If he’s feeling good about how everything is developing then I feel good.
I agree with that timeline since the best prospects are now at AA and A. As for Cherington, I think a broader view is needed. Obviously, he punted on the 2021 MLB season from day 1. it was a lost cause and he focused on the minors. So from a fan's perspective, he earned the criticism on how dreadful this team is. But that wasn't his focus so calls that he should be fired for the W-L record of this year's MLB team are silly. He will succeed or fail based on the efforts he's made, which involve the talent in the minors. So far that looks good but the results in a year or 2 will tell the tail. But in the short term, he's going to have to hear it from the fans about what an awful MLB roster he put together. And that's fair. As long as those fans also realize that he was not hired to compete in 2021.
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
202731393720676B12353F333B3E7C313D3F520 wrote: Next season - pieces will start to come together. They’ll still lose a bunch of games, but the framework of a team will start to appear.
2023 - a real team takes the field.
I’ll say this: I’ve never met BC, but I know people who know him well. I’ve been told that he feels very good about the rebuild in the minors and plans for the major league team. This guy does know something about baseball. If he’s feeling good about how everything is developing then I feel good.
this is the best case scenario and I hope it is correct. Show that the team is buiding in 20233 and then in add for 2023. The 2023 team should be around 500 and contending in 2024.
2023 - a real team takes the field.
I’ll say this: I’ve never met BC, but I know people who know him well. I’ve been told that he feels very good about the rebuild in the minors and plans for the major league team. This guy does know something about baseball. If he’s feeling good about how everything is developing then I feel good.
this is the best case scenario and I hope it is correct. Show that the team is buiding in 20233 and then in add for 2023. The 2023 team should be around 500 and contending in 2024.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
Easy to say "contender" by whenever. What's it mean? What's it take?
If it means, "winning the division," it takes making up a 35.5-game deficit within that timeframe, and, going by the looks of things, it will be 40+ by season's end. Leapfrogging every team along the way is not easy, as it shouldn't be.
If it means "for a wild card," then it it also hard. All but one of the other clubs are ahead of us; some by a wide margin. I see a few clubs that might tail off- some, like the Mets and Padres just because that's what they always do. But, it still leaves several others. There are tough teams on that list, and they won't go down meekly.
The most recent times we've done it, good things happened at once- pitching, power, an MVP, career years, reclamation, a veteran manager, whatever.
That got us to and beyond the WCG. We didn't contend for any title.
Anyone see that transpiring two years from today?
Wish I can say that I do. But, I don't. Not 2023.
I've been proven wrong before, and I hope to be again.
If it means, "winning the division," it takes making up a 35.5-game deficit within that timeframe, and, going by the looks of things, it will be 40+ by season's end. Leapfrogging every team along the way is not easy, as it shouldn't be.
If it means "for a wild card," then it it also hard. All but one of the other clubs are ahead of us; some by a wide margin. I see a few clubs that might tail off- some, like the Mets and Padres just because that's what they always do. But, it still leaves several others. There are tough teams on that list, and they won't go down meekly.
The most recent times we've done it, good things happened at once- pitching, power, an MVP, career years, reclamation, a veteran manager, whatever.
That got us to and beyond the WCG. We didn't contend for any title.
Anyone see that transpiring two years from today?
Wish I can say that I do. But, I don't. Not 2023.
I've been proven wrong before, and I hope to be again.
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
17302125203D02362120203D440 wrote: They say managers have little effect on the game. Shelton doesn't have much to work with.
But this guy manages like he's getting suggestions on twitter [highlight]Yea don’t know what the plans are for Shelton moving forward[/highlight] but if Cherrington decided to make a complete overhaul of this coaching staff next season it would be hard not to justify it.
Is it possible that Shelton was hired as a sacrificial lamb? BC had to know that the team would be this bad for a few years so he needed a guy to manage these bad teams. That way, he can fire Shelton just before the young talent arrives under the premise that he didn’t do the job, and then hire the guy he really wants without having put him through this mess.
That’s definitely a possibility I think for sure. I think they will most likely give Shelton next season but after that all bets are off. I doubt he is managing this team in 2023 and 2024 when this team should be a lot better.
They need to drop him know and hire the man he expects to lead this team of young players. Shelton is an embarassment.
But this guy manages like he's getting suggestions on twitter [highlight]Yea don’t know what the plans are for Shelton moving forward[/highlight] but if Cherrington decided to make a complete overhaul of this coaching staff next season it would be hard not to justify it.
Is it possible that Shelton was hired as a sacrificial lamb? BC had to know that the team would be this bad for a few years so he needed a guy to manage these bad teams. That way, he can fire Shelton just before the young talent arrives under the premise that he didn’t do the job, and then hire the guy he really wants without having put him through this mess.
That’s definitely a possibility I think for sure. I think they will most likely give Shelton next season but after that all bets are off. I doubt he is managing this team in 2023 and 2024 when this team should be a lot better.
They need to drop him know and hire the man he expects to lead this team of young players. Shelton is an embarassment.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
3E262423233425223F3E284D0 wrote: They say managers have little effect on the game. Shelton doesn't have much to work with.
But this guy manages like he's getting suggestions on twitter [highlight]Yea don’t know what the plans are for Shelton moving forward[/highlight] but if Cherrington decided to make a complete overhaul of this coaching staff next season it would be hard not to justify it.
Is it possible that Shelton was hired as a sacrificial lamb? BC had to know that the team would be this bad for a few years so he needed a guy to manage these bad teams. That way, he can fire Shelton just before the young talent arrives under the premise that he didn’t do the job, and then hire the guy he really wants without having put him through this mess.
That’s definitely a possibility I think for sure. I think they will most likely give Shelton next season but after that all bets are off. I doubt he is managing this team in 2023 and 2024 when this team should be a lot better.
[highlight]They need to drop him know and hire the man he expects to lead this team of young players.[/highlight] Shelton is an embarassment.
I can see a scenario happening where next season the team is filled with incapable players like this year. But as the Deadline nears, BC trades or releases many of those guys and replaces them with the first of the minor league players who will make-up the next competitive team.
He then fires Shelton and brings in a real manager. I think he'll have his choice of a few guys because BC is respected around baseball, and those in the game can see he's acquired a stockpile of good, young talent and would welcome the opportunity to work with it.
No decent managerial candidate wanted the job two years ago because they knew how bad this team would be until BC could restock the system and then take the time to develop those players. But by next year, those two phases will be well underway, making the Pirates job much more attractive.
But this guy manages like he's getting suggestions on twitter [highlight]Yea don’t know what the plans are for Shelton moving forward[/highlight] but if Cherrington decided to make a complete overhaul of this coaching staff next season it would be hard not to justify it.
Is it possible that Shelton was hired as a sacrificial lamb? BC had to know that the team would be this bad for a few years so he needed a guy to manage these bad teams. That way, he can fire Shelton just before the young talent arrives under the premise that he didn’t do the job, and then hire the guy he really wants without having put him through this mess.
That’s definitely a possibility I think for sure. I think they will most likely give Shelton next season but after that all bets are off. I doubt he is managing this team in 2023 and 2024 when this team should be a lot better.
[highlight]They need to drop him know and hire the man he expects to lead this team of young players.[/highlight] Shelton is an embarassment.
I can see a scenario happening where next season the team is filled with incapable players like this year. But as the Deadline nears, BC trades or releases many of those guys and replaces them with the first of the minor league players who will make-up the next competitive team.
He then fires Shelton and brings in a real manager. I think he'll have his choice of a few guys because BC is respected around baseball, and those in the game can see he's acquired a stockpile of good, young talent and would welcome the opportunity to work with it.
No decent managerial candidate wanted the job two years ago because they knew how bad this team would be until BC could restock the system and then take the time to develop those players. But by next year, those two phases will be well underway, making the Pirates job much more attractive.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
1A4C5A4E415B4B404D5A684F45494144064B280 wrote: They say managers have little effect on the game. Shelton doesn't have much to work with.
But this guy manages like he's getting suggestions on twitter [highlight]Yea don’t know what the plans are for Shelton moving forward[/highlight] but if Cherrington decided to make a complete overhaul of this coaching staff next season it would be hard not to justify it.
Is it possible that Shelton was hired as a sacrificial lamb? BC had to know that the team would be this bad for a few years so he needed a guy to manage these bad teams. That way, he can fire Shelton just before the young talent arrives under the premise that he didn’t do the job, and then hire the guy he really wants without having put him through this mess.
That’s definitely a possibility I think for sure. I think they will most likely give Shelton next season but after that all bets are off. I doubt he is managing this team in 2023 and 2024 when this team should be a lot better.
[highlight]They need to drop him know and hire the man he expects to lead this team of young players.[/highlight] Shelton is an embarassment.
I can see a scenario happening where next season the team is filled with incapable players like this year. But as the Deadline nears, BC trades or releases many of those guys and replaces them with the first of the minor league players who will make-up the next competitive team.
He then fires Shelton and brings in a real manager. I think he'll have his choice of a few guys because BC is respected around baseball, and those in the game can see he's acquired a stockpile of good, young talent and would welcome the opportunity to work with it.
No decent managerial candidate wanted the job two years ago because they knew how bad this team would be until BC could restock the system and then take the time to develop those players. But by next year, those two phases will be well underway, making the Pirates job much more attractive.
I agree 100%.
Shelton was like the minor leaguers being stock piled - give him a chance and see the results. No one (literally) with a future as a manager in the big leagues would have returned Ben’s call two years ago. Even if they knew Ben and believed in his plan, this manager is a sacrificial lamb.
But this guy manages like he's getting suggestions on twitter [highlight]Yea don’t know what the plans are for Shelton moving forward[/highlight] but if Cherrington decided to make a complete overhaul of this coaching staff next season it would be hard not to justify it.
Is it possible that Shelton was hired as a sacrificial lamb? BC had to know that the team would be this bad for a few years so he needed a guy to manage these bad teams. That way, he can fire Shelton just before the young talent arrives under the premise that he didn’t do the job, and then hire the guy he really wants without having put him through this mess.
That’s definitely a possibility I think for sure. I think they will most likely give Shelton next season but after that all bets are off. I doubt he is managing this team in 2023 and 2024 when this team should be a lot better.
[highlight]They need to drop him know and hire the man he expects to lead this team of young players.[/highlight] Shelton is an embarassment.
I can see a scenario happening where next season the team is filled with incapable players like this year. But as the Deadline nears, BC trades or releases many of those guys and replaces them with the first of the minor league players who will make-up the next competitive team.
He then fires Shelton and brings in a real manager. I think he'll have his choice of a few guys because BC is respected around baseball, and those in the game can see he's acquired a stockpile of good, young talent and would welcome the opportunity to work with it.
No decent managerial candidate wanted the job two years ago because they knew how bad this team would be until BC could restock the system and then take the time to develop those players. But by next year, those two phases will be well underway, making the Pirates job much more attractive.
I agree 100%.
Shelton was like the minor leaguers being stock piled - give him a chance and see the results. No one (literally) with a future as a manager in the big leagues would have returned Ben’s call two years ago. Even if they knew Ben and believed in his plan, this manager is a sacrificial lamb.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
033621212A1321212A2D21440 wrote: Easy to say "contender" by whenever. What's it mean? What's it take?
If it means, "winning the division," it takes making up a 35.5-game deficit within that timeframe, and, going by the looks of things, it will be 40+ by season's end. Leapfrogging every team along the way is not easy, as it shouldn't be.
If it means "for a wild card," then it it also hard. All but one of the other clubs are ahead of us; some by a wide margin. I see a few clubs that might tail off- some, like the Mets and Padres just because that's what they always do. But, it still leaves several others. There are tough teams on that list, and they won't go down meekly.
The most recent times we've done it, good things happened at once- pitching, power, an MVP, career years, reclamation, a veteran manager, whatever.
That got us to and beyond the WCG. We didn't contend for any title.
Anyone see that transpiring two years from today?
Wish I can say that I do. But, I don't. Not 2023.
I've been proven wrong before, and I hope to be again.
And it’s easy to have expectations that are impossible to meet. You and a few others fall in this category. You have completely impossible expectations.
It’s like someone trying to raise the Titanic: “one year project, max! we’ll put some of that miracle rubber stuff you see on TV to patch the hole up, the furniture and stuff just need to dry out (really good stuff!), and invest in a fancy radar - next season we compete for YOU’RE vacation business! Piece O Cake!”
The problem is: the hole can’t be filled with magic rubber compound, the furniture is wasted, the entire ship has nothing but a history and a historical vision. So, if you intend to sail the Titanic again, you bring someone on board that is willing to rebuild….with plans to set-sail 3-4 years down the line. Demanding anything other than this means you simply aren’t willing to wait on the Titanic. That’s ok, there are other ships out their, ready to sail today - they’ve already got radar installed.
For those of us that are willing to wait, we have to hope that the ship they pull up is indeed The titanic and not the USS Minnow.
If it means, "winning the division," it takes making up a 35.5-game deficit within that timeframe, and, going by the looks of things, it will be 40+ by season's end. Leapfrogging every team along the way is not easy, as it shouldn't be.
If it means "for a wild card," then it it also hard. All but one of the other clubs are ahead of us; some by a wide margin. I see a few clubs that might tail off- some, like the Mets and Padres just because that's what they always do. But, it still leaves several others. There are tough teams on that list, and they won't go down meekly.
The most recent times we've done it, good things happened at once- pitching, power, an MVP, career years, reclamation, a veteran manager, whatever.
That got us to and beyond the WCG. We didn't contend for any title.
Anyone see that transpiring two years from today?
Wish I can say that I do. But, I don't. Not 2023.
I've been proven wrong before, and I hope to be again.
And it’s easy to have expectations that are impossible to meet. You and a few others fall in this category. You have completely impossible expectations.
It’s like someone trying to raise the Titanic: “one year project, max! we’ll put some of that miracle rubber stuff you see on TV to patch the hole up, the furniture and stuff just need to dry out (really good stuff!), and invest in a fancy radar - next season we compete for YOU’RE vacation business! Piece O Cake!”
The problem is: the hole can’t be filled with magic rubber compound, the furniture is wasted, the entire ship has nothing but a history and a historical vision. So, if you intend to sail the Titanic again, you bring someone on board that is willing to rebuild….with plans to set-sail 3-4 years down the line. Demanding anything other than this means you simply aren’t willing to wait on the Titanic. That’s ok, there are other ships out their, ready to sail today - they’ve already got radar installed.
For those of us that are willing to wait, we have to hope that the ship they pull up is indeed The titanic and not the USS Minnow.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Bucs vs Cubbies - Game Thread - 9/5
My expectations are no more impossible than the majority, so we can argue that point. What do you think they are?
What I wrote on the onset of the season that I felt- and, continue to think- that the roster could have been improved by three posistions before the season began. If you think that was unrealistic, then the franchise- not the team- is in very poor condition. Considering that Nutting has held onto the franchise for as long as he has, I highly doubt that's the case.
Furthermore, it is other people who are writing of their expectations of 2023. I was commenting on that. To the best of my knowledge, I haven't stated mine.
I especially enjoy the "demand" comment. I've demanded nothing. That diminishes your case.
What I wrote is that it's a very high chore to make this roster "competitive" (which no one has defined, by the way) within two seasons. I think my point is more accurate than the comments you're writing here.
Will we be more "competitive" in games in 2023? Probably. Will we be more "competitive" for post-season advancement in 2023? I wouldn't count on that.
But, go on.
What I wrote on the onset of the season that I felt- and, continue to think- that the roster could have been improved by three posistions before the season began. If you think that was unrealistic, then the franchise- not the team- is in very poor condition. Considering that Nutting has held onto the franchise for as long as he has, I highly doubt that's the case.
Furthermore, it is other people who are writing of their expectations of 2023. I was commenting on that. To the best of my knowledge, I haven't stated mine.
I especially enjoy the "demand" comment. I've demanded nothing. That diminishes your case.
What I wrote is that it's a very high chore to make this roster "competitive" (which no one has defined, by the way) within two seasons. I think my point is more accurate than the comments you're writing here.
Will we be more "competitive" in games in 2023? Probably. Will we be more "competitive" for post-season advancement in 2023? I wouldn't count on that.
But, go on.