There's so much going on here. SammyKhalifa was right when he said earlier that we need to focus on what we are actually mad about. Good idea. When I think through all of this very carefully, here is what it all boils down to for me:
1. We used 2 top-tier prospects with value to help get rid of a player in a salary dump, instead of using them to ACQUIRE talent that could help this year's team or next. To me, using top prospects that way is virtually unheard of.
2. Sending 2 prospects to the Yankees for 2 months of Nova. I'll guarantee that when those names are announced we'll all go ballistic again. I'm going to guess Cole Tucker and Tito Polo ... or something along those lines. The return for Nova should have been "cash considerations" or Locke or Nicasio or Vogelsong, etc...
3. BOTTOM LINE -- We are letting 4 prospects walk ... and what exactly are we getting in return that has any value? We let 4 prospects walk and what are we getting in return that will help the 2016 Pirates, or the 2017 Pirates?
Everything else I'm okay with. But losing 4 prospects and getting nothing in return, or a negligible upgrade at best, is inexcusable.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Last Minute Trade Buzz
I don't see the prospects dealt (Ramirez and McGuire) helping in the next three to four years.
Time will tell if they pan out or not.
Time will tell if they pan out or not.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Last Minute Trade Buzz
6B4E58434B446858455D442A0 wrote: Having said that, I am fine with the Nova trade, the Bastardo trade, and Melancon trade. It was just this last one that seemed to be a bridge too far.
Yes. Too bad they were "able" to sneak it in at 3:59.
Yes. Too bad they were "able" to sneak it in at 3:59.
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SteadyFreddy
Last Minute Trade Buzz
7C777F7376776C292F586179707777367B77180 wrote: I don't see the prospects dealt (Ramirez and McGuire) helping in the next three to four years.
Time will tell if they pan out or not. It doesn't matter if they pan out or not that's not the issue. The issue is giving up prospects and begging someone to pay another players salary for them instead of trading them to what normal teams do and that is to fill a position of need.
Time will tell if they pan out or not. It doesn't matter if they pan out or not that's not the issue. The issue is giving up prospects and begging someone to pay another players salary for them instead of trading them to what normal teams do and that is to fill a position of need.
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CarolinaBucco
Last Minute Trade Buzz
It's not a matter of whether the prospects dealt (Ramirez and McGuire) could have helped the Pirates in the next 3-4 years. I agree they may well be blocked.
The problem is they have value to other teams and could have / should have been used in order to acquire players to help address an area of weakness.
The problem is they have value to other teams and could have / should have been used in order to acquire players to help address an area of weakness.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
The only thing I'm upset about after the deadline is McGuire.
To the "we punted this season" pundits, we are one game over .500. We played post all star game easy portion of the season into 6-8. We are not a playoff team and upside closers are luxuries, not necessities to teams over .500.
The return on Melancon is Ok, not great and didn't torpedo our season. And the lottery ticket if it pays off is nice.
Getting rid of Niese for Bastardo is a fairly nothing grad, but perhaps Ray can get him back on track.
Nova is a JA Happ type trade. If we can turn him around, great, if not, no biggie. I'll bet the guys we give up are organizational pieces.
As for Liriano, I have no trouble with the trade except for McGuire.
Shedding 17 million for a guy who has been a top five bad starter this season and seems to be averse to being coached isn't bad. This isn't a bad trade for 2016. We are removing a terrible performing player. Replacing him with anything different is a plus. He had seven quality starts in 21 starts. (Locke has had 9 in 18 starts). I've got no problem with them giving up Ramirez with him. I've got no problem with Hutchison going to Indy to get coached. The throws a similar fb/slider combo as both Kuhl and Tallion so maybe Ray can do work with him.
McGuire, on the hand, to me had big value. You don't have to have a bat to be a competent big league catcher. He is more valuable long term than the cash savings.
And while I don't like McGuire going in the deal, I'm amazed at the "Nutting is cheap" crowd. Of course he is. He always will be and I'm always amazed by the outrage on a money saving effort by the Pirates. It what we do.
It seems that NH shed payroll without killing the season. I'm not saying that it won't happen with the Vogelsong and Locke starts, but if he wanted to kill 2016, FELIZ, Joyce, Freese, would have all been dangled. I don't think we are better or worse than we were on Friday night.
To the "we punted this season" pundits, we are one game over .500. We played post all star game easy portion of the season into 6-8. We are not a playoff team and upside closers are luxuries, not necessities to teams over .500.
The return on Melancon is Ok, not great and didn't torpedo our season. And the lottery ticket if it pays off is nice.
Getting rid of Niese for Bastardo is a fairly nothing grad, but perhaps Ray can get him back on track.
Nova is a JA Happ type trade. If we can turn him around, great, if not, no biggie. I'll bet the guys we give up are organizational pieces.
As for Liriano, I have no trouble with the trade except for McGuire.
Shedding 17 million for a guy who has been a top five bad starter this season and seems to be averse to being coached isn't bad. This isn't a bad trade for 2016. We are removing a terrible performing player. Replacing him with anything different is a plus. He had seven quality starts in 21 starts. (Locke has had 9 in 18 starts). I've got no problem with them giving up Ramirez with him. I've got no problem with Hutchison going to Indy to get coached. The throws a similar fb/slider combo as both Kuhl and Tallion so maybe Ray can do work with him.
McGuire, on the hand, to me had big value. You don't have to have a bat to be a competent big league catcher. He is more valuable long term than the cash savings.
And while I don't like McGuire going in the deal, I'm amazed at the "Nutting is cheap" crowd. Of course he is. He always will be and I'm always amazed by the outrage on a money saving effort by the Pirates. It what we do.
It seems that NH shed payroll without killing the season. I'm not saying that it won't happen with the Vogelsong and Locke starts, but if he wanted to kill 2016, FELIZ, Joyce, Freese, would have all been dangled. I don't think we are better or worse than we were on Friday night.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Last Minute Trade Buzz
0D2F3C212227202F0C3B2D2D214E0 wrote: It's not a matter of whether the prospects dealt (Ramirez and McGuire) could have helped the Pirates in the next 3-4 years. I agree they may well be blocked.
The problem is they have value to other teams and could have / should have been used in order to acquire players to help address an area of weakness.
Yeah, awful awful awful. Maybe Ramirez for that new pitcher would have been okay. But we all know that everyone wants catchers.
The problem is they have value to other teams and could have / should have been used in order to acquire players to help address an area of weakness.
Yeah, awful awful awful. Maybe Ramirez for that new pitcher would have been okay. But we all know that everyone wants catchers.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
4249414D4849521711665F474E4949084549260 wrote: I don't see the prospects dealt (Ramirez and McGuire) helping in the next three to four years.
Time will tell if they pan out or not.
so you mean not helping the Pirates for 3 or 4 years or not helping anyone? It looks like McGuire is on track to be in majors in 2018.
Time will tell if they pan out or not.
so you mean not helping the Pirates for 3 or 4 years or not helping anyone? It looks like McGuire is on track to be in majors in 2018.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
6C51564C5156380 wrote: The only thing I'm upset about after the deadline is McGuire.
To the "we punted this season" pundits, we are one game over .500. We played post all star game easy portion of the season into 6-8. We are not a playoff team and upside closers are luxuries, not necessities to teams over .500.
The return on Melancon is Ok, not great and didn't torpedo our season. And the lottery ticket if it pays off is nice.
Getting rid of Niese for Bastardo is a fairly nothing grad, but perhaps Ray can get him back on track.
Nova is a JA Happ type trade. If we can turn him around, great, if not, no biggie. I'll bet the guys we give up are organizational pieces.
As for Liriano, I have no trouble with the trade except for McGuire.
Shedding 17 million for a guy who has been a top five bad starter this season and seems to be averse to being coached isn't bad. This isn't a bad trade for 2016. We are removing a terrible performing player. Replacing him with anything different is a plus. He had seven quality starts in 21 starts. (Locke has had 9 in 18 starts). I've got no problem with them giving up Ramirez with him. I've got no problem with Hutchison going to Indy to get coached. The throws a similar fb/slider combo as both Kuhl and Tallion so maybe Ray can do work with him.
McGuire, on the hand, to me had big value. You don't have to have a bat to be a competent big league catcher. He is more valuable long term than the cash savings.
And while I don't like McGuire going in the deal, I'm amazed at the "Nutting is cheap" crowd. Of course he is. He always will be and I'm always amazed by the outrage on a money saving effort by the Pirates. It what we do.
It seems that NH shed payroll without killing the season. I'm not saying that it won't happen with the Vogelsong and Locke starts, but if he wanted to kill 2016, FELIZ, Joyce, Freese, would have all been dangled. I don't think we are better or worse than we were on Friday night.
this could be right, but it certainly looks like the Bucs could have acquired Moore if they wanted too. They certainly could have had a package comparable to what the Giants gave up.
Here is fangraphs preseason profile of Hutchinson:
Profile: The first thing, the most important thing about Drew Hutchison must come up front: he's no longer in ownership of a definite role in the Toronto starting rotation. Jesse Chavez, Aaron Sanchez, and maybe even Roberto Osuna, should he stretch out -- all of these guys are now in the mix for the fifth starter's spot there. The second most important thing is that the things that made him interesting are all now less interesting. He used to have a well-above average whiff rate on his change and slider. Now the slider is average and the change is below, and he's trusting the change less and less with every game. He's also developed a homer problem on his fastball. Who knows why. He's had some velocity dips, but year over year, his velocity has held steady at a little better than league average. His command, if judged by walk rates, seems fine. Maybe it isn't. Maybe he needs to be around the zone less. Maybe the slider has changed, though he claims it hasn't. Something is missing here. The good news is that the guys in front of him on the depth chart are surpassable. The bad news is that we're all scratching our heads about his pitching mix, and if he can make the most of it. (Eno Sarris)
The Quick Opinion: We were pretty sure that changes in the slider had resulted in worse outcomes for Hutchison, and maybe that's still true even if he disagrees. He's trusting the changeup less, and it looks worse, so maybe that's part of it. But there's still a mystery about why this pitcher gives up so many homers, and where his strikeouts went. If he can get them back, he's still mixed league worthy. It just seems less likely now.
To the "we punted this season" pundits, we are one game over .500. We played post all star game easy portion of the season into 6-8. We are not a playoff team and upside closers are luxuries, not necessities to teams over .500.
The return on Melancon is Ok, not great and didn't torpedo our season. And the lottery ticket if it pays off is nice.
Getting rid of Niese for Bastardo is a fairly nothing grad, but perhaps Ray can get him back on track.
Nova is a JA Happ type trade. If we can turn him around, great, if not, no biggie. I'll bet the guys we give up are organizational pieces.
As for Liriano, I have no trouble with the trade except for McGuire.
Shedding 17 million for a guy who has been a top five bad starter this season and seems to be averse to being coached isn't bad. This isn't a bad trade for 2016. We are removing a terrible performing player. Replacing him with anything different is a plus. He had seven quality starts in 21 starts. (Locke has had 9 in 18 starts). I've got no problem with them giving up Ramirez with him. I've got no problem with Hutchison going to Indy to get coached. The throws a similar fb/slider combo as both Kuhl and Tallion so maybe Ray can do work with him.
McGuire, on the hand, to me had big value. You don't have to have a bat to be a competent big league catcher. He is more valuable long term than the cash savings.
And while I don't like McGuire going in the deal, I'm amazed at the "Nutting is cheap" crowd. Of course he is. He always will be and I'm always amazed by the outrage on a money saving effort by the Pirates. It what we do.
It seems that NH shed payroll without killing the season. I'm not saying that it won't happen with the Vogelsong and Locke starts, but if he wanted to kill 2016, FELIZ, Joyce, Freese, would have all been dangled. I don't think we are better or worse than we were on Friday night.
this could be right, but it certainly looks like the Bucs could have acquired Moore if they wanted too. They certainly could have had a package comparable to what the Giants gave up.
Here is fangraphs preseason profile of Hutchinson:
Profile: The first thing, the most important thing about Drew Hutchison must come up front: he's no longer in ownership of a definite role in the Toronto starting rotation. Jesse Chavez, Aaron Sanchez, and maybe even Roberto Osuna, should he stretch out -- all of these guys are now in the mix for the fifth starter's spot there. The second most important thing is that the things that made him interesting are all now less interesting. He used to have a well-above average whiff rate on his change and slider. Now the slider is average and the change is below, and he's trusting the change less and less with every game. He's also developed a homer problem on his fastball. Who knows why. He's had some velocity dips, but year over year, his velocity has held steady at a little better than league average. His command, if judged by walk rates, seems fine. Maybe it isn't. Maybe he needs to be around the zone less. Maybe the slider has changed, though he claims it hasn't. Something is missing here. The good news is that the guys in front of him on the depth chart are surpassable. The bad news is that we're all scratching our heads about his pitching mix, and if he can make the most of it. (Eno Sarris)
The Quick Opinion: We were pretty sure that changes in the slider had resulted in worse outcomes for Hutchison, and maybe that's still true even if he disagrees. He's trusting the changeup less, and it looks worse, so maybe that's part of it. But there's still a mystery about why this pitcher gives up so many homers, and where his strikeouts went. If he can get them back, he's still mixed league worthy. It just seems less likely now.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
A month or so ago there were rumors that the Orioles were interested in Liriano. However, I don't recall any mention of what they were willing to give up.
In short, in looking at what appears to be a real debacle in shipping off well regarded prospects simply to move salary, perhaps if management had taken an earlier offer for Liriano much of the current problem could have been avoided. Liriano did very little to help the Pirates over the past month and his ongoing struggles likely hurt his trade value as well. And, Novoa or someone similar to Novoa, likely was available a month ago as well.
I am fine with the Melancon trade.
I would just as soon the Pirates designated Niese than bringing back Bastardo. I don't like his hit on next year's payroll.
Novoa - only if the prospects truly are low value prospects, but I have a bad feeling that they will be better prospects than most of us would like to have given up.
Liriano - Sad use of minor league talent.
In short, in looking at what appears to be a real debacle in shipping off well regarded prospects simply to move salary, perhaps if management had taken an earlier offer for Liriano much of the current problem could have been avoided. Liriano did very little to help the Pirates over the past month and his ongoing struggles likely hurt his trade value as well. And, Novoa or someone similar to Novoa, likely was available a month ago as well.
I am fine with the Melancon trade.
I would just as soon the Pirates designated Niese than bringing back Bastardo. I don't like his hit on next year's payroll.
Novoa - only if the prospects truly are low value prospects, but I have a bad feeling that they will be better prospects than most of us would like to have given up.
Liriano - Sad use of minor league talent.