466061766070030 wrote:
of them all, Moskos being selected fourth overall was the biggest crime. I always thought the Pirates had it backwards on two players. Should have put failed prospect Clinton Johnston on the mound and JVB at 1st. Bullington was a high consensus pick that failed.
Yes, JVB might have been a t 1st rd pick as a power hitter. But as a pitcher, he was a project at best. Using a #1 on a hitter who will be converted to a pitcher was insane. But typical Littlefield.
can't remember his name but the person who wanted to do this was very well respected as judge of amateur and minor league talent. I think some of the draft previews said the JVB could be successful either way. I don't know why the Pirates thought he couldn't be a power hitter though as that must have been the reason for the switch.
Converting him to a pitcher should have eliminated the #1 tag. Maybe a 2 or 3 at best. If they hadn't taken him at #1, there's a good chance someone else would have but not as a pitcher. So either take him at 1 as a hitter or take someone else at 1.
2017 Outlook
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
2017 Outlook
found this article that JVB was surprised to be taken as a pitcher.
Mickey White made the pick and decided on position switch:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001 ... t-pnc-park
Kent State's John VanBenschoten knew he would be drafted early in the first round. He had no idea it would be as a pitcher.
VanBenschoten is a part-time pitcher who caught the eye of scouts after leading the NCAA with 31 homers after he began concentrating on his hitting. He was named Player of the Year in the Mid-American Conference and was widely praised as a five-tool prospect with enough arm strength to make the move from first base to right field.
But Pittsburgh Pirates scouting director Mickey White saw something else after having VanBenschoten play around on the mound during a workout at PNC Park.
"He is an all-around good athlete who can do many things on a baseball field," White said. "But I look at him and see a dominant kind of starting pitcher."
White apparently didn't let VanBenschoten in on the secret until after the Pirates had selected him with the eighth pick overall. He and everyone else in the country assumed he was being selected as a potential middle-of-the-order hitter.
"This does come as a little bit of a surprise," said VanBenschoten, who stands 6 feet 5 inches and weighs 200 pounds. "I fully expected to be drafted as a hitter. But I like to pitch too. I'll do whatever the Pirates want."
Mickey White made the pick and decided on position switch:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001 ... t-pnc-park
Kent State's John VanBenschoten knew he would be drafted early in the first round. He had no idea it would be as a pitcher.
VanBenschoten is a part-time pitcher who caught the eye of scouts after leading the NCAA with 31 homers after he began concentrating on his hitting. He was named Player of the Year in the Mid-American Conference and was widely praised as a five-tool prospect with enough arm strength to make the move from first base to right field.
But Pittsburgh Pirates scouting director Mickey White saw something else after having VanBenschoten play around on the mound during a workout at PNC Park.
"He is an all-around good athlete who can do many things on a baseball field," White said. "But I look at him and see a dominant kind of starting pitcher."
White apparently didn't let VanBenschoten in on the secret until after the Pirates had selected him with the eighth pick overall. He and everyone else in the country assumed he was being selected as a potential middle-of-the-order hitter.
"This does come as a little bit of a surprise," said VanBenschoten, who stands 6 feet 5 inches and weighs 200 pounds. "I fully expected to be drafted as a hitter. But I like to pitch too. I'll do whatever the Pirates want."
2017 Outlook
353E363A3F3E256066112830393E3E7F323E510 wrote: Moskos was part of Littlefield's last draft, wasn't he? I was concerned with the pitching first approach based on the stats noted at the time that of top ten picks, pitchers were only successful about (something like) 30% of the time while position players had a much higher percentage of success. For a team that depends on the draft I thought it made more sense to go with the higher probability of successful players.
At the time, I heard that Littlefield was worried about his job and drafted Moskos as he would get to the majors faster as he was a reliever.
Also why Littlefield traded for starting pitcher Morris from SF because he couldn't sign anyone.
Littlefield made moves to save his job and it really hurt the Pirates in the long run too. I didn't mind his strategy to go after pitching, but he still should have drafted the best available player. Moskos over Weiters was the last straw for me.
You don't use that high of a pick on a kid that profiles as a reliever in the majors. In addition, there was a connection between Littlefield and Clemson. Maybe he was good friends with coach Jack Leggett? I remember hearing this.
Brad Lincoln was drafted two spots ahead of Clayton Kershaw. We passed over Prince Fielder, Zach Greinke, Cole Hamels and others for Bullington.
At the time, I heard that Littlefield was worried about his job and drafted Moskos as he would get to the majors faster as he was a reliever.
Also why Littlefield traded for starting pitcher Morris from SF because he couldn't sign anyone.
Littlefield made moves to save his job and it really hurt the Pirates in the long run too. I didn't mind his strategy to go after pitching, but he still should have drafted the best available player. Moskos over Weiters was the last straw for me.
You don't use that high of a pick on a kid that profiles as a reliever in the majors. In addition, there was a connection between Littlefield and Clemson. Maybe he was good friends with coach Jack Leggett? I remember hearing this.
Brad Lincoln was drafted two spots ahead of Clayton Kershaw. We passed over Prince Fielder, Zach Greinke, Cole Hamels and others for Bullington.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
2017 Outlook
Looking at the Indians and what they accomplished this year reminded me of the Pirates the last few years.
They had enough starting pitching with only one big name (Kluber - Liriano) and young rising star (Bauer - Cole) and enough from the rest.
Their line up was nothing to be really afraid of. No way do opposing teams fear that line up. Their big power hitter in HRs and batted .240 (Napoli - Alvarez). Then they had a bunch of guys who hit double digit HRs, not counting their DH (no DH in the NL).
This is why the Pirates aren't closing any windows soon. They do need another starting pitcher and another to be a surprise. But the outlook looks good to me as long as they add the much needed pieces (bullpen) and that one big starter.
They had enough starting pitching with only one big name (Kluber - Liriano) and young rising star (Bauer - Cole) and enough from the rest.
Their line up was nothing to be really afraid of. No way do opposing teams fear that line up. Their big power hitter in HRs and batted .240 (Napoli - Alvarez). Then they had a bunch of guys who hit double digit HRs, not counting their DH (no DH in the NL).
This is why the Pirates aren't closing any windows soon. They do need another starting pitcher and another to be a surprise. But the outlook looks good to me as long as they add the much needed pieces (bullpen) and that one big starter.
2017 Outlook
060D05090C0D165355221B030A0D0D4C010D620 wrote: Looking at the Indians and what they accomplished this year reminded me of the Pirates the last few years.
They had enough starting pitching with only one big name (Kluber - Liriano) and young rising star (Bauer - Cole) and enough from the rest.
Their line up was nothing to be really afraid of. No way do opposing teams fear that line up. Their big power hitter in HRs and batted .240 (Napoli - Alvarez). Then they had a bunch of guys who hit double digit HRs, not counting their DH (no DH in the NL).
This is why the Pirates aren't closing any windows soon. They do need another starting pitcher and another to be a surprise. But the outlook looks good to me as long as they add the much needed pieces (bullpen) and that one big starter.
You seriously have faith in a FO that many don't have. I for one don't have faith that this organization can take it to the next level and that means acquiring needed talent, not reclamation projects. They have yet to display anything that suggests we are going to close the gap and move toward winning a division and a WS. Sorry, bringing in the reclamation projects doesn't do that.
They had enough starting pitching with only one big name (Kluber - Liriano) and young rising star (Bauer - Cole) and enough from the rest.
Their line up was nothing to be really afraid of. No way do opposing teams fear that line up. Their big power hitter in HRs and batted .240 (Napoli - Alvarez). Then they had a bunch of guys who hit double digit HRs, not counting their DH (no DH in the NL).
This is why the Pirates aren't closing any windows soon. They do need another starting pitcher and another to be a surprise. But the outlook looks good to me as long as they add the much needed pieces (bullpen) and that one big starter.
You seriously have faith in a FO that many don't have. I for one don't have faith that this organization can take it to the next level and that means acquiring needed talent, not reclamation projects. They have yet to display anything that suggests we are going to close the gap and move toward winning a division and a WS. Sorry, bringing in the reclamation projects doesn't do that.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
2017 Outlook
They made the Playoffs three years in a row and you still think they have done nothing. The mighty Cardinals and the new Royals also missed the Playoffs this past season.
You are right, I don't get why you have no faith in the front office. They have proved you wrong many times. Not every team can reach or win the World Series. You saw this season how two franchises who have been around a long time just win it and almost win it much longer than the Pirates' drought.
You are right, I don't get why you have no faith in the front office. They have proved you wrong many times. Not every team can reach or win the World Series. You saw this season how two franchises who have been around a long time just win it and almost win it much longer than the Pirates' drought.
2017 Outlook
313A323E3B3A216462152C343D3A3A7B363A550 wrote: Looking at the Indians and what they accomplished this year reminded me of the Pirates the last few years.
They had enough starting pitching with only one big name (Kluber - Liriano) and young rising star (Bauer - Cole) and enough from the rest.
Their line up was nothing to be really afraid of. No way do opposing teams fear that line up. Their big power hitter in HRs and batted .240 (Napoli - Alvarez). Then they had a bunch of guys who hit double digit HRs, not counting their DH (no DH in the NL).
This is why the Pirates aren't closing any windows soon. They do need another starting pitcher and another to be a surprise. But the outlook looks good to me as long as they add the much needed pieces (bullpen) and that one big starter.
For the most part Dog I agree with everything you've written. However, to continue with your "window" analogy I would say that although the Pirates window won't be closing soon it will be typical of their ownership to leave it open just a crack instead of spending enough to open it all the way.
As you suggest, in addition to a good foundation of position players that they already have, the Pirates do need a quality starter (or IMO preferably 2) to add to the mix of young arms who are showing potential. They need a quality closer in order to build a bullpen that can be relied upon consistently. I respect NH's abilities as a GM enough to think he might get lucky with the Pirates' usual method of bringing in inexpensive reclamation projects to accomplish this, but I think it's a long shot. Sure it's possible that the Pirates might contend for a playoff spot in 2017 but my feeling is that it is a whole lot more likely to resemble a transition year rather than a championship year.
They had enough starting pitching with only one big name (Kluber - Liriano) and young rising star (Bauer - Cole) and enough from the rest.
Their line up was nothing to be really afraid of. No way do opposing teams fear that line up. Their big power hitter in HRs and batted .240 (Napoli - Alvarez). Then they had a bunch of guys who hit double digit HRs, not counting their DH (no DH in the NL).
This is why the Pirates aren't closing any windows soon. They do need another starting pitcher and another to be a surprise. But the outlook looks good to me as long as they add the much needed pieces (bullpen) and that one big starter.
For the most part Dog I agree with everything you've written. However, to continue with your "window" analogy I would say that although the Pirates window won't be closing soon it will be typical of their ownership to leave it open just a crack instead of spending enough to open it all the way.
As you suggest, in addition to a good foundation of position players that they already have, the Pirates do need a quality starter (or IMO preferably 2) to add to the mix of young arms who are showing potential. They need a quality closer in order to build a bullpen that can be relied upon consistently. I respect NH's abilities as a GM enough to think he might get lucky with the Pirates' usual method of bringing in inexpensive reclamation projects to accomplish this, but I think it's a long shot. Sure it's possible that the Pirates might contend for a playoff spot in 2017 but my feeling is that it is a whole lot more likely to resemble a transition year rather than a championship year.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
2017 Outlook
That is my opinion too. If they bring in those small pieces they should be able to compete. I know it is a big "if", but it has to be done in my opinion.
I do think Cole and Taillon can carry a staff. Taillon is going to be special. The Pirates resemble the Indians. What big names did they bring in? The mighty Cubs barely beat them and the Indians had them 3-1 too.
I do think Cole and Taillon can carry a staff. Taillon is going to be special. The Pirates resemble the Indians. What big names did they bring in? The mighty Cubs barely beat them and the Indians had them 3-1 too.
2017 Outlook
I think the biggest difference between Cleveland the the Pirates is that Cleveland doesn't have the Cubs in their division.
The addition of Theo really changed things in this division. He really is that good. And he has one of the best managers, and an almost unlimited payroll, and a lot of young talent.
Congrats to the Cubs, but their success doesn't bode well for the Bucs' ability to win the division.
The addition of Theo really changed things in this division. He really is that good. And he has one of the best managers, and an almost unlimited payroll, and a lot of young talent.
Congrats to the Cubs, but their success doesn't bode well for the Bucs' ability to win the division.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
2017 Outlook
4562694A070 wrote: I think the biggest difference between Cleveland the the Pirates is that Cleveland doesn't have the Cubs in their division.
The addition of Theo really changed things in this division. He really is that good. And he has one of the best managers, and an almost unlimited payroll, and a lot of young talent.
Congrats to the Cubs, but their success doesn't bode well for the Bucs' ability to win the division.
I do agree about the Cubs. They don't look like they will go away anytime soon.
But history does tell us that it is still pretty hard to have back-to-back 100 win seasons. I think it has been done six times in the last 40 years.
Teams who win 90 games have a real good shot at making the Playoffs now. 90 wins is not out of reach for the Pirates.
The addition of Theo really changed things in this division. He really is that good. And he has one of the best managers, and an almost unlimited payroll, and a lot of young talent.
Congrats to the Cubs, but their success doesn't bode well for the Bucs' ability to win the division.
I do agree about the Cubs. They don't look like they will go away anytime soon.
But history does tell us that it is still pretty hard to have back-to-back 100 win seasons. I think it has been done six times in the last 40 years.
Teams who win 90 games have a real good shot at making the Playoffs now. 90 wins is not out of reach for the Pirates.