I agree and they should have once Jaso couldn't play the position. The other outfielders were either hurt (Frazier) or needed somewhere else (Harrison).
The easy move was to put Bell out there. No defensive star, but had to be better than Jaso. And Jaso is better at 1B. Dumb to go that long without making that simple move.
What would another GM do?
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
What would another GM do?
the Pirates had to know after last season and spring training how bad Jaso is in the outfield. Continuing to put him out there is ridiculous.
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rucker59@gmail.com
What would another GM do?
616A626E6B6A713432457C646D6A6A2B666A050 wrote: The discussion was major moves are rarely done in April or May. Teams don't trade difference makers at that time. The Pirates weren't going to get someone like Marte at that time.
The Pirates have players like Adams already in Jaso, Osuna. The Braves didn't even have that and had to go get someone. They should have planned better for when a player gets hurt. Where have we heard that before?
We don't know what could be done now. Think the Yankees wouldn't be all over a deal for Cole? They badly want to win.
After two months of debate it's easy to lose sight of main ideas. For my own sake if nothing else I want to clarify my position, and it has evolved.
If the FO plans to "restructure" the team for 2018 and beyond then probably, I realize, they're doing the right thing by doing nothing at this time. Look for a bidding war on carefully selected assets. If this is the plan, I'll support Neal all the way.
However, if the FO has no plans to "restructure" but is playing for the playoffs in 2017 and 18 (and maybe beyond) then doing nothing is completely unacceptable because they are willingly flushing 2017 down the toilet by doing nothing.
We won't know for 2 more months. But if nothing significant happens at the trade deadline I think fans will have ever right to be fed-up with the organizations unwillingness to attempt to put a better team on the field.
And of course this is all made the more difficult because indeed the Cubs have come back to the pack and the Brewers are sitting in 1st. The irony of being the worst team in the division in the year when (by record) the NLC is the worst division in MLB is enough to make a Pirate fan go crazy.
So I'm mostly waiting till 7/31 to see what's up. But it's nevertheless hard to watch Matt Adams beat the Pirates in both games from the lowly Braves.
The Pirates have players like Adams already in Jaso, Osuna. The Braves didn't even have that and had to go get someone. They should have planned better for when a player gets hurt. Where have we heard that before?
We don't know what could be done now. Think the Yankees wouldn't be all over a deal for Cole? They badly want to win.
After two months of debate it's easy to lose sight of main ideas. For my own sake if nothing else I want to clarify my position, and it has evolved.
If the FO plans to "restructure" the team for 2018 and beyond then probably, I realize, they're doing the right thing by doing nothing at this time. Look for a bidding war on carefully selected assets. If this is the plan, I'll support Neal all the way.
However, if the FO has no plans to "restructure" but is playing for the playoffs in 2017 and 18 (and maybe beyond) then doing nothing is completely unacceptable because they are willingly flushing 2017 down the toilet by doing nothing.
We won't know for 2 more months. But if nothing significant happens at the trade deadline I think fans will have ever right to be fed-up with the organizations unwillingness to attempt to put a better team on the field.
And of course this is all made the more difficult because indeed the Cubs have come back to the pack and the Brewers are sitting in 1st. The irony of being the worst team in the division in the year when (by record) the NLC is the worst division in MLB is enough to make a Pirate fan go crazy.
So I'm mostly waiting till 7/31 to see what's up. But it's nevertheless hard to watch Matt Adams beat the Pirates in both games from the lowly Braves.
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SammyKhalifa
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What would another GM do?
79727A767372692C2A5D647C757272337E721D0 wrote: I agree and they should have once Jaso couldn't play the position. The other outfielders were either hurt (Frazier) or needed somewhere else (Harrison).
The easy move was to put Bell out there. No defensive star, but had to be better than Jaso. And Jaso is better at 1B. Dumb to go that long without making that simple move.
Bell was moved out of the outfield for a reason.
The easy move was to put Bell out there. No defensive star, but had to be better than Jaso. And Jaso is better at 1B. Dumb to go that long without making that simple move.
Bell was moved out of the outfield for a reason.
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Bobster21
What would another GM do?
I'm very concerned about the direction of this FO. Fans were very excited and bought in to the rebuilding that changed 20 years of losing into 3 years of post season. But when fans expected a few moves in the past 2 off seasons to further strengthen the team, little was done. The FO said spending would increase when the time was right. That didn't happen to any appreciable degree. Then we were told the FO didn't want to go all in because they preferred to be at least competitive on a yearly basis. Last year and this year they aren't even competitive. When they lost Kang and Marte they incredibly said idly by and twiddled their thumbs. They seem to be losing the trust of the fans and they don't even seem to care. It seems the effort to build a winner is becoming less and less each year. I haven't even seen many comments from Nutting, Coonelly or NH this season. Maybe they're just running out of excuses.
What would another GM do?
5750464E4057101C654248444C490B464A48250 wrote: Freddy Freeman goes down, the braves acquire Matt Adams from the cards to replace him, middle of may.
I thought for sure trades don't happen this early, especially trades by teams that have no chance to compete (Braves)
Both the cards and braves should be widely criticized for trading outside of the accepted windows! Who do they think they are?
Adams was pretty much given away. The White Sox traded Alex Katz the same day. There were 15 trades in May. Only Adams was known (probably because of Pittsburgh ties).
These weren't block buster trades, which was the point. And the point you claimed you understood when a few explained it to you.
No, your point misses the point . I held off making the same post Dmetz posted - I figured the responses would parce the deal into a meaningless transaction. But it's anything but meaningless.
The Braves have taken a lot of action to rebuild since last season. They are BUILDING a team from every source. They are not punting on this season; whatever their season is worth they are trying to be the best they can be by acquiring a credible replacement piece for Freeman.
The Pirates on the other hand have built nothing and have literally embarrassed themselves by pulling any spare part that has a heart beat.
How folks can possible criticize the Braves, or belittle there attempts to field a competitive team is beyond astounding.
The fact is, the Pirates did nothing. The first excuse was that trades don't happen before July. How that the Cards and Braves have blown that excuse up, We need a new excuse and it goes something like this: well that trade proves the Pirates right, Adams can't even play the outfield and besides he's not that good and besides no one knows of him except Pirate fans since he played at SR and beside this trade was meaningless.
When blind excuses keep following no actions the excuses begin to lose their appeal - unlike the Braves, this Pirate team claimed to have post season aspirations. Unlike the Braves, when the Pirate team with aspirations lost two key players for a minimum of half a season the Pirates did NOTHING.
There are no excuses for that. And THAT's the point.
The braves are in the middle of a rebuild that isn't working. They have no plan and no idea except "we've got good guys coming soon".
I would have loved to have seen this board if we'd have brought in two 40 year old pitchers for 20 million or traded for another bad one that we had to pay 12 million in 2017 in Garcia.
I don't love what's happening but giving the Braves a participant trophy for replacing Freeman is crazy. With the exception of the Shelby Miller trade, this team rebuild hasn't worked.
I'm not grading the Braves, not saying they're doing a good job. I'm saying they demonstrate that moves in May are certainly doable.
I'm just getting weary of empty excuses. Cleveland and KC show that small mkts can certainly carry a greater payroll. The Braves didn't waste anytime in filling a hole.
I'm not grading whether the Indians or Royals or Braves or anybody, I'm commenting that the Excuses made by or for the Pirates are completely empty.
I have to go back to Maine's point: it seems pretty fair to question the organizations commitment to winning.
Moves in May in are minor. This offseason they brought in 2 40 plus pitchers for 20 million dollars after trading every decent player they had except Freeman for ....pitching. They filled one hole. They still have 5-6 to fill and didn't.
I thought for sure trades don't happen this early, especially trades by teams that have no chance to compete (Braves)
Both the cards and braves should be widely criticized for trading outside of the accepted windows! Who do they think they are?
Adams was pretty much given away. The White Sox traded Alex Katz the same day. There were 15 trades in May. Only Adams was known (probably because of Pittsburgh ties).
These weren't block buster trades, which was the point. And the point you claimed you understood when a few explained it to you.
No, your point misses the point . I held off making the same post Dmetz posted - I figured the responses would parce the deal into a meaningless transaction. But it's anything but meaningless.
The Braves have taken a lot of action to rebuild since last season. They are BUILDING a team from every source. They are not punting on this season; whatever their season is worth they are trying to be the best they can be by acquiring a credible replacement piece for Freeman.
The Pirates on the other hand have built nothing and have literally embarrassed themselves by pulling any spare part that has a heart beat.
How folks can possible criticize the Braves, or belittle there attempts to field a competitive team is beyond astounding.
The fact is, the Pirates did nothing. The first excuse was that trades don't happen before July. How that the Cards and Braves have blown that excuse up, We need a new excuse and it goes something like this: well that trade proves the Pirates right, Adams can't even play the outfield and besides he's not that good and besides no one knows of him except Pirate fans since he played at SR and beside this trade was meaningless.
When blind excuses keep following no actions the excuses begin to lose their appeal - unlike the Braves, this Pirate team claimed to have post season aspirations. Unlike the Braves, when the Pirate team with aspirations lost two key players for a minimum of half a season the Pirates did NOTHING.
There are no excuses for that. And THAT's the point.
The braves are in the middle of a rebuild that isn't working. They have no plan and no idea except "we've got good guys coming soon".
I would have loved to have seen this board if we'd have brought in two 40 year old pitchers for 20 million or traded for another bad one that we had to pay 12 million in 2017 in Garcia.
I don't love what's happening but giving the Braves a participant trophy for replacing Freeman is crazy. With the exception of the Shelby Miller trade, this team rebuild hasn't worked.
I'm not grading the Braves, not saying they're doing a good job. I'm saying they demonstrate that moves in May are certainly doable.
I'm just getting weary of empty excuses. Cleveland and KC show that small mkts can certainly carry a greater payroll. The Braves didn't waste anytime in filling a hole.
I'm not grading whether the Indians or Royals or Braves or anybody, I'm commenting that the Excuses made by or for the Pirates are completely empty.
I have to go back to Maine's point: it seems pretty fair to question the organizations commitment to winning.
Moves in May in are minor. This offseason they brought in 2 40 plus pitchers for 20 million dollars after trading every decent player they had except Freeman for ....pitching. They filled one hole. They still have 5-6 to fill and didn't.
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rucker59@gmail.com
What would another GM do?
Sort of a side note but maybe bigger then I thought: this is not a very likable team. It reminds me of some of the teams before the Cutch era began. A few guys like Jaso ("you couldn't even play JV") and Marte (I long felt he takes significant time off during games) don't seem to have great attitudes. Most of the others have no real identity. Is there a leader on this team?
Of the veterans it seems like only JHay and Cervelli have any real presence. Just sort of a no identity team going no where.
I look at the young guys like Bell and Tallion and Frazier and I think these are the guys we need to build around. I hope they don't spend their careers in a middlin of worse team. Id rather let them try and lead.
Of the veterans it seems like only JHay and Cervelli have any real presence. Just sort of a no identity team going no where.
I look at the young guys like Bell and Tallion and Frazier and I think these are the guys we need to build around. I hope they don't spend their careers in a middlin of worse team. Id rather let them try and lead.
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rucker59@gmail.com
What would another GM do?
416C61707766713132030 wrote: I'm very concerned about the direction of this FO. Fans were very excited and bought in to the rebuilding that changed 20 years of losing into 3 years of post season. But when fans expected a few moves in the past 2 off seasons to further strengthen the team, little was done. The FO said spending would increase when the time was right. That didn't happen to any appreciable degree. Then we were told the FO didn't want to go all in because they preferred to be at least competitive on a yearly basis. Last year and this year they aren't even competitive. When they lost Kang and Marte they incredibly said idly by and twiddled their thumbs. They seem to be losing the trust of the fans and they don't even seem to care. It seems the effort to build a winner is becoming less and less each year. I haven't even seen many comments from Nutting, Coonelly or NH this season. Maybe they're just running out of excuses.
This is a good point. The whole thing really is strange.
At the height of fan interest and changing attitudes toward the Pirates it's like the FO got defensive because the fans were excited and wanted just one more player.
When the fans were chastised by the FO for wanting one more pitcher for the 2016 season I was floored. Neal talking on the FAN and mockingly saying "it's easy to spend someone else's money" and then criticized that we need to be more like KC fans (when the Pirates were crushing the Royals in attendance) seemed to intentionally create a "we" verses "them" atmosphere.
Frankly, the "fun" has been absent from Pirates baseball since.
Hard to figure out why the FO would take such an approach.
This is a good point. The whole thing really is strange.
At the height of fan interest and changing attitudes toward the Pirates it's like the FO got defensive because the fans were excited and wanted just one more player.
When the fans were chastised by the FO for wanting one more pitcher for the 2016 season I was floored. Neal talking on the FAN and mockingly saying "it's easy to spend someone else's money" and then criticized that we need to be more like KC fans (when the Pirates were crushing the Royals in attendance) seemed to intentionally create a "we" verses "them" atmosphere.
Frankly, the "fun" has been absent from Pirates baseball since.
Hard to figure out why the FO would take such an approach.
What would another GM do?
03313D3D291B38313C393631500 wrote: I agree and they should have once Jaso couldn't play the position. The other outfielders were either hurt (Frazier) or needed somewhere else (Harrison).
The easy move was to put Bell out there. No defensive star, but had to be better than Jaso. And Jaso is better at 1B. Dumb to go that long without making that simple move.
Bell was moved out of the outfield for a reason.
wasn't the reason that the Pirates had three great outfielders until the 2019 season?
The easy move was to put Bell out there. No defensive star, but had to be better than Jaso. And Jaso is better at 1B. Dumb to go that long without making that simple move.
Bell was moved out of the outfield for a reason.
wasn't the reason that the Pirates had three great outfielders until the 2019 season?
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SammyKhalifa
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- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
What would another GM do?
I thought it was because he wasn't very good.