OnlyBucs

111600080611565A23040E020A0F4D000C0E630 wrote: It's not "one or the other" it's "yes and".  It's gotta be.



Good young talent has to be extended when ever possible for a mutually beneficial contract.  Then most (if not all, maybe there is an occasional exception) of these players are flipped to a bigger mkt team at about the 2 year mark.  So the Pirates get a few of the very-prime years.



The flip keeps the pipeline full. It is essential IF you want the Pirates to stay competitive. But you can only flip IF you have good young talent ready to step into the same role as the flipped player. 



Second - i have to say, our player development must be excellent and I question whether it is.  Specifically, Neal and his team MUST know whether a Polanco or Hanson or Newman or Glasnow, etc etc are truly good enough to take over their spot when the time is right.  They have to know how to trade the maturing contracts to provide the next guy to step up and they gave to know how to trade prospects at the right time.






I totally agree. There are times you extend a player and keep a player to go for it. You can't just always flip a player to get some return. Like, I said, there is a reason why super stars hit free agency. They weren't all dealt at the deadline. Some stayed on their current team to make a playoff run.

2F242C2025243F7A7C0B322A2324246528244B0 wrote: It's not "one or the other" it's "yes and".  It's gotta be.



Good young talent has to be extended when ever possible for a mutually beneficial contract.  Then most (if not all, maybe there is an occasional exception) of these players are flipped to a bigger mkt team at about the 2 year mark.  So the Pirates get a few of the very-prime years.



The flip keeps the pipeline full. It is essential IF you want the Pirates to stay competitive. But you can only flip IF you have good young talent ready to step into the same role as the flipped player. 



Second - i have to say, our player development must be excellent and I question whether it is.  Specifically, Neal and his team MUST know whether a Polanco or Hanson or Newman or Glasnow, etc etc are truly good enough to take over their spot when the time is right.  They have to know how to trade the maturing contracts to provide the next guy to step up and they gave to know how to trade prospects at the right time.






I totally agree.  There are times you extend a player and keep a player to go for it.  You can't just always flip a player to get some return.  Like, I said, there is a reason why super stars hit free agency.  They weren't all dealt at the deadline.  Some stayed on their current team to make a playoff run.


I agree but the problem is that the Pirates-as they are run-will never get to the point where they should hold onto their players. There's a solid core here. Bell, Harrison, Mercer, Marte (when he returns), Cutch, Diaz, Osuna, Frazier, Nova, Taillon, Rivero could all be part of a good team going forward (I'm assuming Boras takes Cole away regardless) if the Pirates were willing to move out of the MLB payroll basement and keep and extend contracts. Then they could address the remaining needs.



But they refuse to spend to add impact players so there are too many holes to be a realistic competitor. Even after everything went right in 2015 and they just fell short and only needed a little more pitching, they went the other way and reduced payroll and weakened the roster rather than adding to it. That leads to a weaker team that doesn't compete (unless being sub-.500 in a weak division passes for being competitive). So now they look at contracts and don't want to pay to keep players on a team with no realistic chance to win a championship so they might as well trade for cheaper, young talent. That's fine if there is a finite plan to build a championship caliber team. But there never comes a time that they go all in. Always too many holes on a team built on the cheap. So as long as there's too many holes to compete for a championship, the time always seems to be right to move the bigger contracts for more cheaper, younger players. A never ending cycle.

Strongly disagree. 2011-2015 is why I disagree.



Again, bring up the off season going into 2016. Why didn't you bring up the off season going into 2013, 2014, or 2015?

15282F35282F410 wrote:



I'm sure someone thinks you are witty.




Whereas nobody thinks you are.

202B232F2A2B307573043D252C2B2B6A272B440 wrote: Strongly disagree.  2011-2015 is why I disagree. 



Again, bring up the off season going into 2016.  Why didn't you bring up the off season going into 2013, 2014, or 2015? 






Because '13, '14 and '15 all had one thing in common: they needed just a bit more. Give Neal some true financial flexibility, and one more pitcher, and very good chance the Pirates move on. 98 wins, one year BTW, means absolutely nothing as soon as the season is over. Nothing. Zero.



Then, to make matters worse, the FO retreated in2016 and now 2017. this, after major fan support building each year and despite promises. That matters. How can it not?

Tintin & Aaron,



Comments such as this on fellow members are against the rules, even if you are just responding.  Do not let it happen again or you both will be given a vacation from this board.  This thread is done.



EDIT: Decided to unlock the thread after user requests. Please do not turn it into a flame war.

From a rebuilding perspective we're unlikely to be situated better with starting pitching.  3 of the 5 rotation starters are young, talented, effective, and cost-controlled.   



Diaz is a good young catcher whose defense will carry his game when his bat cools off. 



Mercer is a league average cost-controlled SS



JHay's production now is favorable to his contract.



Polanco is cost controlled, Marte is cost controlled.   Josh Bell just tied Ralph kiner's record for HR's before the ASG as a rookie.



If you don't build on this core, you're mad.    You can trade them all, rebuild from drafting and trades and 3-5 years from now come out the other end with the same core from a price and talent standpoint.   



Stop being afraid to try because the Littlefield era brainwashed tens of thousands of fans into believing that if you try to win, you are guaranteed to "Mortgage the future" and be terrible for 20 years.

7C7B6D656B7C3B374E69636F6762206D61630E0 wrote:



Because '13, '14 and '15 all had one thing in common: they needed just a bit more.  Give Neal some true financial flexibility, and one more pitcher, and very good chance the Pirates move on.  98 wins, one year BTW, means absolutely nothing as soon as the season is over. Nothing.  Zero. 



Then, to make matters worse, the FO retreated in2016 and now 2017.  this, after major fan support building each year and despite promises.  That matters. How can it not?


They made the playoffs in those years. We have seen over and over that once in the playoffs, any team can advance. You have to make the playoffs first.



If 98 wins means nothing, why is it constantly brought up?



And No, I don't think they "retreated" in 2016 and 2017. Many moves were made for 2016. They didn't work out. It wasn't a "retreat", it was some bad moves. Losing Walker and Alvarez turned out to be huge as their replacements were worse. Their starting pitching didn't perform, big drop offs from the top two and the new guy. The league MVP candidate had his worst year ever.



There is no doubt in my mind that Kang and Marte would have this team in first place right now in 2017. Players, unexpectantly, are under performing. Hopefully, that is changing. Some tweaking can really help.