0027362536626A6A6B62530 wrote: It's officially 2 PTBNL.
Anyone else concerned?
Since Nova is not very good and NH is conservative and careful by nature, I have got to believe that we are not sending them a legitimate top 30 prospect.
Someone please tell me I'm right ... please ...
I would think one in the 15-20 range and one completely off the reservation.
but why even offer that? He has never been good, he isn't going to be back next year (unless the Bucs think he is worth 5 million or so) and why would they want to spend that much on him? For heavens sake why did the Bucs want him at all?
Supposedly moving into PNC park was supposed to be helpful to the team financially. I guess they are ahead of Tampa but it appears no one else.
I just don't see that Nova has any more potential than Locke or Vogelsong. So why give up anything to get him? He doesn't improve the team this year or next year. It makes no sense to me to give up any prospect to get Nova and to give prospects to get someone to take Liriano.
The Bucs have made a lot of good decisions on players but they also have made a lot of bad ones which I think we tend to overlook because of teams recent record. Now that team is floundering I would really like to see some sort of evidence to show that this year was a bump in the road and next year the team will be pretty sure to get back to 90 or more wins. After today the likelihood of that happening seems remote.
Based on those under contract the Bucs have a questionable bullpen and questionable starters again next year.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Steve19981
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:57 pm
Last Minute Trade Buzz
604647504656250 wrote: It's officially 2 PTBNL.
Anyone else concerned?
Since Nova is not very good and NH is conservative and careful by nature, I have got to believe that we are not sending them a legitimate top 30 prospect.
Someone please tell me I'm right ... please ...
I would think one in the 15-20 range and one completely off the reservation.
but why even offer that? He has never been good, he isn't going to be back next year (unless the Bucs think he is worth 5 million or so) and why would they want to spend that much on him? For heavens sake why did the Bucs want him at all?
Supposedly moving into PNC park was supposed to be helpful to the team financially. I guess they are ahead of Tampa but it appears no one else.
I just don't see that Nova has any more potential than Locke or Vogelsong. So why give up anything to get him? He doesn't improve the team this year or next year. It makes no sense to me to give up any prospect to get Nova and to give prospects to get someone to take Liriano.
The Bucs have made a lot of good decisions on players but they also have made a lot of bad ones which I think we tend to overlook because of teams recent record. Now that team is floundering I would really like to see some sort of evidence to show that this year was a bump in the road and next year the team will be pretty sure to get back to 90 or more wins. After today the likelihood of that happening seems remote.
Based on those under contract the Bucs have a questionable bullpen and questionable starters again next year.
Sadly, I think Nova became the third best option when he was acquired. That's not a good thing. Part of that is off season deals not working out. Part of it is returning players like Liriano and Locke having subpar seasons.
The return I suggest isn't that crazy for even a back of the rotation starter in this year's trade market.
Also I wouldn't say Nova's never been good. Two sub four ERA seasons is good in the AL is good. His xFIP and league switch also makes me think he can be decent the rest of the way this year too.
Anyone else concerned?
Since Nova is not very good and NH is conservative and careful by nature, I have got to believe that we are not sending them a legitimate top 30 prospect.
Someone please tell me I'm right ... please ...
I would think one in the 15-20 range and one completely off the reservation.
but why even offer that? He has never been good, he isn't going to be back next year (unless the Bucs think he is worth 5 million or so) and why would they want to spend that much on him? For heavens sake why did the Bucs want him at all?
Supposedly moving into PNC park was supposed to be helpful to the team financially. I guess they are ahead of Tampa but it appears no one else.
I just don't see that Nova has any more potential than Locke or Vogelsong. So why give up anything to get him? He doesn't improve the team this year or next year. It makes no sense to me to give up any prospect to get Nova and to give prospects to get someone to take Liriano.
The Bucs have made a lot of good decisions on players but they also have made a lot of bad ones which I think we tend to overlook because of teams recent record. Now that team is floundering I would really like to see some sort of evidence to show that this year was a bump in the road and next year the team will be pretty sure to get back to 90 or more wins. After today the likelihood of that happening seems remote.
Based on those under contract the Bucs have a questionable bullpen and questionable starters again next year.
Sadly, I think Nova became the third best option when he was acquired. That's not a good thing. Part of that is off season deals not working out. Part of it is returning players like Liriano and Locke having subpar seasons.
The return I suggest isn't that crazy for even a back of the rotation starter in this year's trade market.
Also I wouldn't say Nova's never been good. Two sub four ERA seasons is good in the AL is good. His xFIP and league switch also makes me think he can be decent the rest of the way this year too.
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UtahPirate
- Posts: 582
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:36 pm
Last Minute Trade Buzz
456961666D4A7D6B7B080 wrote: Last week, in the thread, We Need to Sell, I supported the Pirates moving much of the current talent that was not signed to a longer term deal. In that thread, I stated that the Bucs should consider moving Liriano if someone were willing to overpay. I guess my mistake was not understanding that it would be the Pirates who would be overpaying.
Liriano and Ramirez to dump Liriano's salary --- okay. But, adding McGuire seems like a mistake, regardless of how bad Liriano has been.
NH also appears to be trying to have his cake and eat it too.
I think this answers your own question Mainer. NH tried to play both sides, be a little bit of a seller and a little bit of a buyer.
I have to wonder if we weren't close on the Moore deal and then when the Giants got him panic set in. Today is just odd and everything happened so late. It just seems like NH was trying to do some kind of tight rope dance.
I agree that if we were going to be sellers, just sell. After getting swept by the Brewers I thought that was the direction we would go -- the market for relievers was pretty hot. And if we were going to buy, then buy.
For next year I don't know what "financial flexibility" will mean. I'm not sure how much will come off the books with everything that has happened.
As for Cutch, Kang and Harrison, it is hard to watch right now. And who knows if they'll wake up.
One thing is for sure, the Brass wanted both Niese and Liriano gone off this team and the sooner the better.
Liriano and Ramirez to dump Liriano's salary --- okay. But, adding McGuire seems like a mistake, regardless of how bad Liriano has been.
NH also appears to be trying to have his cake and eat it too.
I think this answers your own question Mainer. NH tried to play both sides, be a little bit of a seller and a little bit of a buyer.
I have to wonder if we weren't close on the Moore deal and then when the Giants got him panic set in. Today is just odd and everything happened so late. It just seems like NH was trying to do some kind of tight rope dance.
I agree that if we were going to be sellers, just sell. After getting swept by the Brewers I thought that was the direction we would go -- the market for relievers was pretty hot. And if we were going to buy, then buy.
For next year I don't know what "financial flexibility" will mean. I'm not sure how much will come off the books with everything that has happened.
As for Cutch, Kang and Harrison, it is hard to watch right now. And who knows if they'll wake up.
One thing is for sure, the Brass wanted both Niese and Liriano gone off this team and the sooner the better.
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CarolinaBucco
Last Minute Trade Buzz
Honestly, if you had told me this morning the Pirates would send Liriano, Ramirez and McGuire to the Rays for Chris Archer or Matt Moore, I would have said "Ok, that seems pretty fair."
But DREW HUTCHISON ???
But DREW HUTCHISON ???
Last Minute Trade Buzz
We trade our #5 and #6 prospects (according to Baseball America) for some salary relief?
What the actual fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.....
MLB.com has McGuire and Ramirez as #4 and #5 in the Blue Jays system right now.
This is incredible. Absolutely incredible. Shades of Aramis Ramirez.
What the actual fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.....
MLB.com has McGuire and Ramirez as #4 and #5 in the Blue Jays system right now.
This is incredible. Absolutely incredible. Shades of Aramis Ramirez.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Last Minute Trade Buzz
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this mess. Some observations:
1) the organization has flat out embarrassed itself.
2) I'm disgusted on so many levels. Just one example- I notice that the two pitchers they MUST move are the two with the biggest contracts. Is somebody going to tell me that Locke and Volgesong are better than Niese and Frankie? Not a chance. They're maybe even worse, but much cheaper. We beg anyone to take the "expensive" crap off our heads, cheap stuff we're happy to keep and even add to.
3) I'm officially off the Nutting bandwagon - pitiful ownership.
4) the magic is dead; fans will vote with their feet.
5) from last winter until today this FO has completely destroyed any bit of integrity they once had. It is an absolute abomination what they have done to this team and to its fans. A disgrace.
1) the organization has flat out embarrassed itself.
2) I'm disgusted on so many levels. Just one example- I notice that the two pitchers they MUST move are the two with the biggest contracts. Is somebody going to tell me that Locke and Volgesong are better than Niese and Frankie? Not a chance. They're maybe even worse, but much cheaper. We beg anyone to take the "expensive" crap off our heads, cheap stuff we're happy to keep and even add to.
3) I'm officially off the Nutting bandwagon - pitiful ownership.
4) the magic is dead; fans will vote with their feet.
5) from last winter until today this FO has completely destroyed any bit of integrity they once had. It is an absolute abomination what they have done to this team and to its fans. A disgrace.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
5671607360343C3C3D34050 wrote: It's officially 2 PTBNL.
Anyone else concerned?
Since Nova is not very good and NH is conservative and careful by nature, I have got to believe that we are not sending them a legitimate top 30 prospect.
Someone please tell me I'm right ... please ...
I would think one in the 15-20 range and one completely off the reservation.
but why even offer that? He has never been good, he isn't going to be back next year (unless the Bucs think he is worth 5 million or so) and why would they want to spend that much on him? For heavens sake why did the Bucs want him at all?
Supposedly moving into PNC park was supposed to be helpful to the team financially. I guess they are ahead of Tampa but it appears no one else.
I just don't see that Nova has any more potential than Locke or Vogelsong. So why give up anything to get him? He doesn't improve the team this year or next year. It makes no sense to me to give up any prospect to get Nova and to give prospects to get someone to take Liriano.
The Bucs have made a lot of good decisions on players but they also have made a lot of bad ones which I think we tend to overlook because of teams recent record. Now that team is floundering I would really like to see some sort of evidence to show that this year was a bump in the road and next year the team will be pretty sure to get back to 90 or more wins. After today the likelihood of that happening seems remote.
Based on those under contract the Bucs have a questionable bullpen and questionable starters again next year.
Sadly, I think Nova became the third best option when he was acquired. That's not a good thing. Part of that is off season deals not working out. Part of it is returning players like Liriano and Locke having subpar seasons.
The return I suggest isn't that crazy for even a back of the rotation starter in this year's trade market.
Also I wouldn't say Nova's never been good. Two sub four ERA seasons is good in the AL is good. His xFIP and league switch also makes me think he can be decent the rest of the way this year too.
he did have a couple good years prior to his injury but last year and this year have been poor at best. Since he is a free agent at end of year I would think the Pirates should have given up little to get him. ERA+ of 86 this season compared to Liriano's 75.
Anyone else concerned?
Since Nova is not very good and NH is conservative and careful by nature, I have got to believe that we are not sending them a legitimate top 30 prospect.
Someone please tell me I'm right ... please ...
I would think one in the 15-20 range and one completely off the reservation.
but why even offer that? He has never been good, he isn't going to be back next year (unless the Bucs think he is worth 5 million or so) and why would they want to spend that much on him? For heavens sake why did the Bucs want him at all?
Supposedly moving into PNC park was supposed to be helpful to the team financially. I guess they are ahead of Tampa but it appears no one else.
I just don't see that Nova has any more potential than Locke or Vogelsong. So why give up anything to get him? He doesn't improve the team this year or next year. It makes no sense to me to give up any prospect to get Nova and to give prospects to get someone to take Liriano.
The Bucs have made a lot of good decisions on players but they also have made a lot of bad ones which I think we tend to overlook because of teams recent record. Now that team is floundering I would really like to see some sort of evidence to show that this year was a bump in the road and next year the team will be pretty sure to get back to 90 or more wins. After today the likelihood of that happening seems remote.
Based on those under contract the Bucs have a questionable bullpen and questionable starters again next year.
Sadly, I think Nova became the third best option when he was acquired. That's not a good thing. Part of that is off season deals not working out. Part of it is returning players like Liriano and Locke having subpar seasons.
The return I suggest isn't that crazy for even a back of the rotation starter in this year's trade market.
Also I wouldn't say Nova's never been good. Two sub four ERA seasons is good in the AL is good. His xFIP and league switch also makes me think he can be decent the rest of the way this year too.
he did have a couple good years prior to his injury but last year and this year have been poor at best. Since he is a free agent at end of year I would think the Pirates should have given up little to get him. ERA+ of 86 this season compared to Liriano's 75.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
I've been a Bucs fan for a long time now - since 1971. I've seen a lot of head-scratching moves by their GMs over the years. Most were the flops they appeared to be. A few worked out. I just do not get what happened today.
I'm not thrilled that my favorite team has to make trades like the Melancon deal, but I can, at least, appreciate the logic behind it.
Niese - Bastardo. OK. Unfortunate, but I get it.
PTBNLs - Nova. Why? He blocks the prospects and isn't an improvement on them. And, they need the ML experience. He's a rental. And they're giving up two players/prospects for this rental? It's like buying a computer and getting cable to install high speed internet to stream Sharknado 4, watching 1/3 of the movie and then destroying the computer but continuing to pay the cable company. I do not get it at all.
Now the back breaker. You can MAYBE justify the Liriano deal based on surplus values. But (almost) any other organization that really wanted to just get rid of Liriano would've just eaten his salary. To save his pride, eat it and trade him. If you don't care, put him on waivers and DFA him. But it was just a money thing. If they were looking to clear rotation spots for the prospects, they wouldn't have acquired Nova & Hutchison.
I can't even write about it anymore. I'm too disgusted by this whole clusterf#!@^k.
I'm not thrilled that my favorite team has to make trades like the Melancon deal, but I can, at least, appreciate the logic behind it.
Niese - Bastardo. OK. Unfortunate, but I get it.
PTBNLs - Nova. Why? He blocks the prospects and isn't an improvement on them. And, they need the ML experience. He's a rental. And they're giving up two players/prospects for this rental? It's like buying a computer and getting cable to install high speed internet to stream Sharknado 4, watching 1/3 of the movie and then destroying the computer but continuing to pay the cable company. I do not get it at all.
Now the back breaker. You can MAYBE justify the Liriano deal based on surplus values. But (almost) any other organization that really wanted to just get rid of Liriano would've just eaten his salary. To save his pride, eat it and trade him. If you don't care, put him on waivers and DFA him. But it was just a money thing. If they were looking to clear rotation spots for the prospects, they wouldn't have acquired Nova & Hutchison.
I can't even write about it anymore. I'm too disgusted by this whole clusterf#!@^k.
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SteadyFreddy
Last Minute Trade Buzz
Is anyone still not convinced that after all these moves yesterday that winning is not this teams and this owners top priority when push comes to shove. I been saying that for awhile on here and get scolded and laughed at. But these moves yesterday absolutely proves this point to be true. This team would rather save money and at the same time do the unthinkable of pretty much bribing another team with 2 of your top 10 prospects just so they will eat a player you want to get rid of (Liriano's) entire salary. It's a disgrace and Huntington and this front office should be absolutely embarrassed and ashamed of themselves.
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ArnoldRothstein
Last Minute Trade Buzz
7F687E495F5F533C0 wrote:
PTBNLs - Nova. Why? He blocks the prospects and isn't an improvement on them. And, they need the ML experience.
I think that he's supposed to block the prospects, and that's why he was acquired. Other than Taillon, I think they want all the kids back at Indy. They can't send Frazier back while he's hitting .350, but if he slumps they will.
PTBNLs - Nova. Why? He blocks the prospects and isn't an improvement on them. And, they need the ML experience.
I think that he's supposed to block the prospects, and that's why he was acquired. Other than Taillon, I think they want all the kids back at Indy. They can't send Frazier back while he's hitting .350, but if he slumps they will.