Game Thread 8/11/2022 Pirates vs. Diamondbacks
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:15 pm
7947424A5941414A6A4F584B1C2E0 wrote: 3 run double
Thanks Shelton, your bullpen management never fails
Sadly, these bad decisions are no longer even upsetting. It's Shelton. That's how he manages. That's how he thinks. We've seen enough to know that a player having a good game will be "rewarded" with a seat on the bench the next day. An effective starting pitcher will be pulled early for no apparent reason. A struggling reliever will be left in until the game is out of hand. I suspect Shelton is a guy who knows the Xs and Os of the game but lacks common sense judgment in personnel decisions. We're well past the point of being able to defend his continuation in the managing position. BC is trying to save face by not firing him after whiffing with 4 million of his tightwad owner's money on Yoshi and hiring a grossly incompetent manager.
Most of us agree that Shelton's managerial skills leave much to be desired. He certainly has and continues to make bonehead decisions. I do however sometimes wonder how some more respected managers such as a Buck Showalter or a Dave Roberts would do with this club. I's sure we will never know. ON a side note, if Tony LaRussa was the bucs manager he would really be hitting the bottle
I'm sure they'd have losing records too. The Pirates are deficient in talent. So the issue with the manager isn't the team's W-L record but rather how he handles day to day game management. Even if they lost, did he give his team the best chance to win? Did he use his personnel wisely? With Shelton there are too many days when the game is lost from the moment he turns in the lineup. Batting VanMeter 1st or 4th (if a all) lessens, not strengthens, the chance of winning.
Clogging the base paths with Vogelbach leading off instead of putting his power in the middle of the order did nothing to enhance the chance of winning. It seemed more like Shelton calling attention to himself by showing us he could think outside the box. Pulling starting pitchers who aren't struggling or leaving in relievers who are, hurts the team. Resting key players in key games makes losing all the more likely. If Shelton just did the best he could with what he's got, he would earn praise for his managing despite the inevitable losing record. Unfortunately, he contributes to their haplessness.
OTOH, a manager can win with a strong team without being a good manager. The 1982 Orioles won 94 games and missed the playoffs by 1 game. Earl Weaver retired after the season and was replaced by Joe Altobelli. The players were frustrated after missing the playoffs and had something to prove. Altobelli made a lot of questionable decisions, but the Orioles were a high scoring team (Eddie Murray, Cal Ripken, Ken Singleton) with great pitching and won 98 games and won the WS. The next year they dropped to 85 wins and finished 19 games out as the poor managerial decisions were becoming problematic. The following year Altobelli was fired after 55 games, just 1.3 years since winning the WS. It was clear he couldn't manage despite the winning record. I attended an Orioles fantasy camp with a reunion of the 1983 championship team. When Altobelli's name came up (he wasn't there), the players rolled their eyes and laughed and said he was not a very bright manager. So W-L records--good or bad--don't necessarily tell the story of a manager.
Thanks Shelton, your bullpen management never fails
Sadly, these bad decisions are no longer even upsetting. It's Shelton. That's how he manages. That's how he thinks. We've seen enough to know that a player having a good game will be "rewarded" with a seat on the bench the next day. An effective starting pitcher will be pulled early for no apparent reason. A struggling reliever will be left in until the game is out of hand. I suspect Shelton is a guy who knows the Xs and Os of the game but lacks common sense judgment in personnel decisions. We're well past the point of being able to defend his continuation in the managing position. BC is trying to save face by not firing him after whiffing with 4 million of his tightwad owner's money on Yoshi and hiring a grossly incompetent manager.
Most of us agree that Shelton's managerial skills leave much to be desired. He certainly has and continues to make bonehead decisions. I do however sometimes wonder how some more respected managers such as a Buck Showalter or a Dave Roberts would do with this club. I's sure we will never know. ON a side note, if Tony LaRussa was the bucs manager he would really be hitting the bottle
I'm sure they'd have losing records too. The Pirates are deficient in talent. So the issue with the manager isn't the team's W-L record but rather how he handles day to day game management. Even if they lost, did he give his team the best chance to win? Did he use his personnel wisely? With Shelton there are too many days when the game is lost from the moment he turns in the lineup. Batting VanMeter 1st or 4th (if a all) lessens, not strengthens, the chance of winning.
Clogging the base paths with Vogelbach leading off instead of putting his power in the middle of the order did nothing to enhance the chance of winning. It seemed more like Shelton calling attention to himself by showing us he could think outside the box. Pulling starting pitchers who aren't struggling or leaving in relievers who are, hurts the team. Resting key players in key games makes losing all the more likely. If Shelton just did the best he could with what he's got, he would earn praise for his managing despite the inevitable losing record. Unfortunately, he contributes to their haplessness.
OTOH, a manager can win with a strong team without being a good manager. The 1982 Orioles won 94 games and missed the playoffs by 1 game. Earl Weaver retired after the season and was replaced by Joe Altobelli. The players were frustrated after missing the playoffs and had something to prove. Altobelli made a lot of questionable decisions, but the Orioles were a high scoring team (Eddie Murray, Cal Ripken, Ken Singleton) with great pitching and won 98 games and won the WS. The next year they dropped to 85 wins and finished 19 games out as the poor managerial decisions were becoming problematic. The following year Altobelli was fired after 55 games, just 1.3 years since winning the WS. It was clear he couldn't manage despite the winning record. I attended an Orioles fantasy camp with a reunion of the 1983 championship team. When Altobelli's name came up (he wasn't there), the players rolled their eyes and laughed and said he was not a very bright manager. So W-L records--good or bad--don't necessarily tell the story of a manager.