So, I have a broken down chevy on the side of the road and I sell the wheels off of it for a couple of hubcaps. Then I can get a cab ride home and tell everybody that I am going to win the Indy 500 even though I don't even own a car so I have no way to get back and forth from a job.
This Management should learn from the global warming folks. Just set the date for the end of the world out so far that nobody will be alive to hold them accountable when the date arrives. Then when the date arrives someone alive at that point can kick the can down the road to some future date for the end of the world.
Josh Bell to Nats
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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WildwoodDave2
Josh Bell to Nats
564D404148444B250 wrote: So, I have a broken down chevy on the side of the road and I sell the wheels off of it for a couple of hubcaps. Then I can get a cab ride home and tell everybody that I am going to win the Indy 500 even though I don't even own a car so I have no way to get back and forth from a job.
This Management should learn from the global warming folks. Just set the date for the end of the world out so far that nobody will be alive to hold them accountable when the date arrives. Then when the date arrives someone alive at that point can kick the can down the road to some future date for the end of the world.
I had a couple of hub caps on my basketball team-made them
Managers
This Management should learn from the global warming folks. Just set the date for the end of the world out so far that nobody will be alive to hold them accountable when the date arrives. Then when the date arrives someone alive at that point can kick the can down the road to some future date for the end of the world.
I had a couple of hub caps on my basketball team-made them
Managers
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Josh Bell to Nats
6C414C5D5A4B5C1C1F2E0 wrote:
We just saw how much good signing Bell to an extension did. We gave a bat away for nothing, and it's not like we had a fearsome lineup to begin with.
774255555E6755555E5955300 wrote: We want the team to win in 2021. It surprises me that others feel perfectly fine with punting seasons away.
142136363D0436363D3A36530 wrote:
What I've written in the past still holds true today. I would expect a man with Ben's reputation to improve the team at one position, minimum, per year externally. That's either by trade or FA acquisition. That would allow for internal development, too. Do that for a couple of years, and we should see the benefits.
1F2A3D3D360F3D3D36313D580 wrote:
In the definition that I've used here and on past boards, we've defined Salary Dumps as a move made that results in significant current payroll reduction- especially when the return does little or nothing to improve the current roster- except when the savings results in another move that will improve the roster.
So you want to win in 2021.
But you are perfectly fine punting seasons away while the worst team in MLB improves at one position per year externally.
And of course these external acquisitions will remain Pirates for as long as it takes to complete this transformation. None will be leaving as FAs until the process is completed. Because improving the worst team in MLB one position per year will only take a couple years. That's because the farm system is so rich that there are already prospects ready to turn the team into a WS contender in a couple years (you're punting until then because winning in 2021 is no longer the goal it was a few paragraphs ago) via starting pitching, BP, catching, infield and outfield to supplement those external acquisitions made one per year for only a couple years.
And you don't want to increase the prospect pool by trading what they currently have for additional prospects to contribute in a few years by which time they have accumulated a few external acquisitions. Because that's just giving players away for nothing and if it doesn't immediately improve the team then it was merely a salary dump.
Got it! Crystal clear.
Bob,
I wouldn't consider improving the team like that to be "punting." Punting is what they did this past season, and- so far, anyway- what they appear to be doing for the upcoming season, and that's doing next to nothing if not nothing at all re the 2021 club.
As for players acquired and how long they remain? Nobody knows how long ANY players stay- not even the suspects. We don't know how many we would want to remain, either.
We're keeping guys today because they're cheap, not because they're effective. In Polanco's case, I don't know why we just don't offer to eat some of his salary and deal him. Oh. I DO know.
But, if I have the option between a known veteran and a roll of the dice suspect, chances are, I'd go with the veteran. Not in every case, but as a general rule. Now, Ben is probably like every other GM out there, thinking that HIS suspects will be better than the other guys' suspects. So,...
I am opposed to our "revolving door" which replaces one guy with guys who aren't going to help the team this year.
When the team improves enough to the point where I think we can do it, then that's a different situation. In this Bell situation, I would have been more in favor of getting one guy who was more impressive and major league ready than two, with one of them needing time to bake before he's ready to come out. A guy with a double digit ERA? I'll pass. If that was the best I could do, I might have held onto Bell, and take my chances of getting better offers if he did well.
And, as I've written more than once- if some of the money that was saved by Bell's salary dumped is used toward an acquisiton that should improve the 2021 club, I'm certainly in favor if that.
I don't mind people shooting holes in ideas or opinions, but it's clear to me that what we've been doing hasn't been working very well.
We just saw how much good signing Bell to an extension did. We gave a bat away for nothing, and it's not like we had a fearsome lineup to begin with.
774255555E6755555E5955300 wrote: We want the team to win in 2021. It surprises me that others feel perfectly fine with punting seasons away.
142136363D0436363D3A36530 wrote:
What I've written in the past still holds true today. I would expect a man with Ben's reputation to improve the team at one position, minimum, per year externally. That's either by trade or FA acquisition. That would allow for internal development, too. Do that for a couple of years, and we should see the benefits.
1F2A3D3D360F3D3D36313D580 wrote:
In the definition that I've used here and on past boards, we've defined Salary Dumps as a move made that results in significant current payroll reduction- especially when the return does little or nothing to improve the current roster- except when the savings results in another move that will improve the roster.
So you want to win in 2021.
But you are perfectly fine punting seasons away while the worst team in MLB improves at one position per year externally.
And of course these external acquisitions will remain Pirates for as long as it takes to complete this transformation. None will be leaving as FAs until the process is completed. Because improving the worst team in MLB one position per year will only take a couple years. That's because the farm system is so rich that there are already prospects ready to turn the team into a WS contender in a couple years (you're punting until then because winning in 2021 is no longer the goal it was a few paragraphs ago) via starting pitching, BP, catching, infield and outfield to supplement those external acquisitions made one per year for only a couple years.
And you don't want to increase the prospect pool by trading what they currently have for additional prospects to contribute in a few years by which time they have accumulated a few external acquisitions. Because that's just giving players away for nothing and if it doesn't immediately improve the team then it was merely a salary dump.
Got it! Crystal clear.
Bob,
I wouldn't consider improving the team like that to be "punting." Punting is what they did this past season, and- so far, anyway- what they appear to be doing for the upcoming season, and that's doing next to nothing if not nothing at all re the 2021 club.
As for players acquired and how long they remain? Nobody knows how long ANY players stay- not even the suspects. We don't know how many we would want to remain, either.
We're keeping guys today because they're cheap, not because they're effective. In Polanco's case, I don't know why we just don't offer to eat some of his salary and deal him. Oh. I DO know.
But, if I have the option between a known veteran and a roll of the dice suspect, chances are, I'd go with the veteran. Not in every case, but as a general rule. Now, Ben is probably like every other GM out there, thinking that HIS suspects will be better than the other guys' suspects. So,...
I am opposed to our "revolving door" which replaces one guy with guys who aren't going to help the team this year.
When the team improves enough to the point where I think we can do it, then that's a different situation. In this Bell situation, I would have been more in favor of getting one guy who was more impressive and major league ready than two, with one of them needing time to bake before he's ready to come out. A guy with a double digit ERA? I'll pass. If that was the best I could do, I might have held onto Bell, and take my chances of getting better offers if he did well.
And, as I've written more than once- if some of the money that was saved by Bell's salary dumped is used toward an acquisiton that should improve the 2021 club, I'm certainly in favor if that.
I don't mind people shooting holes in ideas or opinions, but it's clear to me that what we've been doing hasn't been working very well.
Josh Bell to Nats
to me, this is a good time for the Bucs to add talent to the organization.
Relatively speaking the Pirates probably lost a lot less money than most teams in 2020.
The team could have a tremendously low payroll in 2021, maybe less than $40 million.
Why not see what BC could do with a payroll of $55 or 50 million? That extra 15 or 20 million could result in getting a couple other players.
An increase in talent in the organization makes it possible to trade with other teams to bring talented players back.
The downside is that free agents aren't going to want to come to Pittsburgh, but if the market is flush with players because they over pricing themselves for the market the Pirates could step in (sort of how Reggie Sanders became a Pirate).
Also the Pirates could deal for a player that another club wants to deal to save money.
Of course this is the opposite of the Pirates normal strategy but it could result in a faster rebuild (well in this case new home construction).
Relatively speaking the Pirates probably lost a lot less money than most teams in 2020.
The team could have a tremendously low payroll in 2021, maybe less than $40 million.
Why not see what BC could do with a payroll of $55 or 50 million? That extra 15 or 20 million could result in getting a couple other players.
An increase in talent in the organization makes it possible to trade with other teams to bring talented players back.
The downside is that free agents aren't going to want to come to Pittsburgh, but if the market is flush with players because they over pricing themselves for the market the Pirates could step in (sort of how Reggie Sanders became a Pirate).
Also the Pirates could deal for a player that another club wants to deal to save money.
Of course this is the opposite of the Pirates normal strategy but it could result in a faster rebuild (well in this case new home construction).
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ArnoldRothstein
Josh Bell to Nats
"You might not have a division champion. You might not have a .500 club.
But, you won't have a .317 club, either."
I think that the goal right now is to have a .317 club, or something close to that. That's basically full team of replacement level players. I think that they want to be there because it gets you high picks and big draft and international spending pools. If you do it right, 3-4 years down the line you have a lot of good young players together. If not...new GM.
Under NH, I think there was an expectation the team would take a step back as Bay, Wilson, et al., were traded for younger players, but I think it would have been a pleasant surprise if Karstens, Clement, Andy L. and the rest immediately took the team over .500. I don't think that's true of the new regime: I think that they see being terrible for a time as a necessary condition for getting better. Eventually, I think that they'll start aiming upward again, but it doesn't seem like they're at that point yet.
But, you won't have a .317 club, either."
I think that the goal right now is to have a .317 club, or something close to that. That's basically full team of replacement level players. I think that they want to be there because it gets you high picks and big draft and international spending pools. If you do it right, 3-4 years down the line you have a lot of good young players together. If not...new GM.
Under NH, I think there was an expectation the team would take a step back as Bay, Wilson, et al., were traded for younger players, but I think it would have been a pleasant surprise if Karstens, Clement, Andy L. and the rest immediately took the team over .500. I don't think that's true of the new regime: I think that they see being terrible for a time as a necessary condition for getting better. Eventually, I think that they'll start aiming upward again, but it doesn't seem like they're at that point yet.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Josh Bell to Nats
7A495554575F69544F53484F5E52553B0 wrote: "You might not have a division champion. You might not have a .500 club.
But, you won't have a .317 club, either."
I think that the goal right now is to have a .317 club, or something close to that. That's basically full team of replacement level players. I think that they want to be there because it gets you high picks and big draft and international spending pools. If you do it right, 3-4 years down the line you have a lot of good young players together. If not...new GM.
Under NH, I think there was an expectation the team would take a step back as Bay, Wilson, et al., were traded for younger players, but I think it would have been a pleasant surprise if Karstens, Clement, Andy L. and the rest immediately took the team over .500. I don't think that's true of the new regime: I think that they see being terrible for a time as a necessary condition for getting better. Eventually, I think that they'll start aiming upward again, but it doesn't seem like they're at that point yet.
Yep - worst thing in the world is trying to buy a “competitive team” on the field. Pretty much guarantees this pointless chasing of .500.
I was disappointed Ben didn’t do more initially (like move Bell a year earlier). This year he needs to move as much value as he can and then I’ll be all in on a .300 team as I watch a core begin to materialize. In the mean time we’ll harvest from significant draft position and money. We just have to hope Ben is better than Neal.
I’ve said this earlier and I’ll say it again: the idea of the Pirates winning in 2021 or 2022 is nothing short of ridiculous. Dogs chasing tails...
But, you won't have a .317 club, either."
I think that the goal right now is to have a .317 club, or something close to that. That's basically full team of replacement level players. I think that they want to be there because it gets you high picks and big draft and international spending pools. If you do it right, 3-4 years down the line you have a lot of good young players together. If not...new GM.
Under NH, I think there was an expectation the team would take a step back as Bay, Wilson, et al., were traded for younger players, but I think it would have been a pleasant surprise if Karstens, Clement, Andy L. and the rest immediately took the team over .500. I don't think that's true of the new regime: I think that they see being terrible for a time as a necessary condition for getting better. Eventually, I think that they'll start aiming upward again, but it doesn't seem like they're at that point yet.
Yep - worst thing in the world is trying to buy a “competitive team” on the field. Pretty much guarantees this pointless chasing of .500.
I was disappointed Ben didn’t do more initially (like move Bell a year earlier). This year he needs to move as much value as he can and then I’ll be all in on a .300 team as I watch a core begin to materialize. In the mean time we’ll harvest from significant draft position and money. We just have to hope Ben is better than Neal.
I’ve said this earlier and I’ll say it again: the idea of the Pirates winning in 2021 or 2022 is nothing short of ridiculous. Dogs chasing tails...
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rucker59@gmail.com
Josh Bell to Nats
1B2E3939320B39393235395C0 wrote: Nothing says what it's like to be a current Pirates fan like....dirt in beer. 
)) beer's great. Hey, BOB put dirt in it. :(((((
The WS is like the Indy 500.
30 cars enter.
You can automatically cross off #s 16 through 30, ranked by overall team budget (car, driver, pit crew, etc.)
One of the other 15 will win it.
The Pirates car has no chance at all. It's around 25-27 in budget year after year.
We'll finish 8th once in a blue moon. If a miracle happens- second. We won't drink the milk.
..
Using your analogy - why and how are you demanding the Pirates be in that top 15? You just said 30-16 have zero chance and the Pirates are around 27-30. So if you recognize the Pirates have no chance why are you beating a dead horse by demanding the Pirates be winners this year.
Your confessing they can’t win this year but demanding they do win.
)) beer's great. Hey, BOB put dirt in it. :(((((The WS is like the Indy 500.
30 cars enter.
You can automatically cross off #s 16 through 30, ranked by overall team budget (car, driver, pit crew, etc.)
One of the other 15 will win it.
The Pirates car has no chance at all. It's around 25-27 in budget year after year.
We'll finish 8th once in a blue moon. If a miracle happens- second. We won't drink the milk.
..
Using your analogy - why and how are you demanding the Pirates be in that top 15? You just said 30-16 have zero chance and the Pirates are around 27-30. So if you recognize the Pirates have no chance why are you beating a dead horse by demanding the Pirates be winners this year.
Your confessing they can’t win this year but demanding they do win.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Josh Bell to Nats
I'm demanding something?
Josh Bell to Nats
7F786E66687F38344D6A606C6461236E62600D0 wrote: "You might not have a division champion. You might not have a .500 club.
But, you won't have a .317 club, either."
I think that the goal right now is to have a .317 club, or something close to that. That's basically full team of replacement level players. I think that they want to be there because it gets you high picks and big draft and international spending pools. If you do it right, 3-4 years down the line you have a lot of good young players together. If not...new GM.
Under NH, I think there was an expectation the team would take a step back as Bay, Wilson, et al., were traded for younger players, but I think it would have been a pleasant surprise if Karstens, Clement, Andy L. and the rest immediately took the team over .500. I don't think that's true of the new regime: I think that they see being terrible for a time as a necessary condition for getting better. Eventually, I think that they'll start aiming upward again, but it doesn't seem like they're at that point yet.
Yep - worst thing in the world is trying to buy a “competitive team” on the field. Pretty much guarantees this pointless chasing of .500.
I was disappointed Ben didn’t do more initially (like move Bell a year earlier). This year he needs to move as much value as he can and then I’ll be all in on a .300 team as I watch a core begin to materialize. In the mean time we’ll harvest from significant draft position and money. We just have to hope Ben is better than Neal.
I’ve said this earlier and I’ll say it again: the idea of the Pirates winning in 2021 or 2022 is nothing short of ridiculous. Dogs chasing tails...
_______
Can kicking.
But, you won't have a .317 club, either."
I think that the goal right now is to have a .317 club, or something close to that. That's basically full team of replacement level players. I think that they want to be there because it gets you high picks and big draft and international spending pools. If you do it right, 3-4 years down the line you have a lot of good young players together. If not...new GM.
Under NH, I think there was an expectation the team would take a step back as Bay, Wilson, et al., were traded for younger players, but I think it would have been a pleasant surprise if Karstens, Clement, Andy L. and the rest immediately took the team over .500. I don't think that's true of the new regime: I think that they see being terrible for a time as a necessary condition for getting better. Eventually, I think that they'll start aiming upward again, but it doesn't seem like they're at that point yet.
Yep - worst thing in the world is trying to buy a “competitive team” on the field. Pretty much guarantees this pointless chasing of .500.
I was disappointed Ben didn’t do more initially (like move Bell a year earlier). This year he needs to move as much value as he can and then I’ll be all in on a .300 team as I watch a core begin to materialize. In the mean time we’ll harvest from significant draft position and money. We just have to hope Ben is better than Neal.
I’ve said this earlier and I’ll say it again: the idea of the Pirates winning in 2021 or 2022 is nothing short of ridiculous. Dogs chasing tails...
_______
Can kicking.
Josh Bell to Nats
I've gotten lost trying to follow the car analogies and will confine my remarks to baseball.
I think this was a terrible trade. The Pirates could hardly have sold lower on Josh Bell. While I appreciate the "we're not going to compete while Bell is here" line of thinking, and agree that he should have been traded, I am dissatisfied with the return.
Wil Crowe is the "close to the majors mediocrity" we have traded for unsuccessfully in the past. Whereas the DBacks trade seemed to bring back some highly rated talent, I don't think Yean was enough.
Of course I don't know what other offers were on the table. But I do know that the organization is bereft of talent at catcher and we seem to have a phobia about acquiring lefty pitchers.
We do have depth at 1B and should get MLB-quality output from the position next season. But I viewed Bell as our best trade chip, and, to be redundant, think we settled for a firesale return.
I think this was a terrible trade. The Pirates could hardly have sold lower on Josh Bell. While I appreciate the "we're not going to compete while Bell is here" line of thinking, and agree that he should have been traded, I am dissatisfied with the return.
Wil Crowe is the "close to the majors mediocrity" we have traded for unsuccessfully in the past. Whereas the DBacks trade seemed to bring back some highly rated talent, I don't think Yean was enough.
Of course I don't know what other offers were on the table. But I do know that the organization is bereft of talent at catcher and we seem to have a phobia about acquiring lefty pitchers.
We do have depth at 1B and should get MLB-quality output from the position next season. But I viewed Bell as our best trade chip, and, to be redundant, think we settled for a firesale return.