Off Season Thread

[SammyKhalifa]

Yes, as much as I didn't really didn't like it there any more, it really sucks that they pulled the rug out from the people who did like that. They should have issued an announcement warning or something like that.

[shedman]

I, for one, like this thread very much. It is what being a baseball fan is all about. If you put three baseball fans in a room together they will disagree about baseball. I enjoy and seek out opinions about baseball that are different than mine. Their philosophy about baseball is a way to get to know them. I met some good friends on the PMB and I hope to do the same thing here. I haven't seen one thing that is even remotely "nasty" on this thread, but rather just solid opinions about Pirate baseball.

[Ecbucs]

5F5352090009010C0B140E390 wrote: IMHO the entire first off season was almost a waste because of the late hiring process. It was done in most unusual fashion and timing, which for the Pirates of late, comes as no surprise.



A truncated spring training. With my recollection, there really wasn't anyone that seemed to be busting out, they were doing pretty bad. That couldn't have helped.



But it was obvious this team had absolutely nothing with which to trade for immediate impact, which I believe I have stated on a few occasions.



Now people are questioning MARTE's trade?!?!?!?!? The guy was absolutely excoriated in every forum I was a member. You know, "all that talent, but never realized it"...."ten cent head"...."lazy".....I'm sure there were plenty of others.  Yet somehow, BC was supposed to get some immediate quality ML ready player that would satisfy the collective mindset of the fandom? For that guy? What I find amazing is that somehow, Marte suddenly got WAY better immediately after he was traded. He suddenly became a top notch Pirate talent.



Let us not forget, this past draft. Remember, the one with only SIX picks? The Pirates went pitcher and college heavy, to get guys who were closer to being ready because there really wasn't much down on the farm. They used 99.2 percent of their allotted signing money, and signed all of their picks. So, they didn't even get a normal draft for the first go around. I wonder if they even got to pick guys they really wanted due to the fewer number of picks.



Last but not least, didn't improve on ONE position? Am I the only one who noticed they had one of the better starting rotations for the last six weeks of the season?



So yeah, they were terrible. Sure would have been nice if Josh Bell, Bryan Reynolds, Adam Frazier, Kevin Newman would have shown up. You know, they guys whose names seem to be bandied about as actual trade options for really, really, really good talent?



There was nothing to trade to make the team even "one position better". There was nothing turned over. There was no way to even evaluate the players in the system. I hated this last season, but face it, that was their spring training. They did exactly what every single one of us knew was going to happen, and finish last.



Yet somehow, the expectations were, actually I don't know what for last season. 



AFAIC, the real work started with the draft, and I'll wait and see what happens from there on forward. This offseason IMHO is really this regime's first.



I'm going to actually see if they do anything for once. One thing you could count on with NH, no need to follow the transactions listing.
______

So, there was absolutely no possible way to improve the worst team in all of baseball?


Ben did such a fine job that the team didn't even win 1/3 of its games.



The guy put forth absolutely no effort.  Yet, the apologies for it seem endless.



No wonder we lose.  No surprise if we continue to lose.
Did you check out all the activity he has done? International spending is through the roof, he traded scrap for the money to sign guys who were already playing professional ball. Just because you didn't see something you feel reflects "action" at the major league level, he's hardly sat on his hands. There's more to his job, and more to what he's been doing then meets your eye.



He signed 22 free agents (most to minor league contracts) he made 5 waiver claims. He made 8 trades, many of them to gain more bonus pool money and international money.



By the looks of it, he's already been busy turning over the foundation of the organization, a pretty weak one at that. He's already targeted college players, international players to accelerate a top tier in the organizational chart, because there wasn't much else. Next year they'll have the number one draft position.



Keep your blood pressure in check, watch your weight, exercise regularly. The 2022 Pirates are going to be something to watch, and it's going to be a great 2021 watching them take those first steps to relevance.




There are probably many who don’t agree with you, but I too have faith that this current FO is going to turn things around rather quickly.


I can understand feeling that way. I was that way with Littlefield and with NH (although I was ready to can him after 2012 but was pleasantly surprised by 2013). I am less optimistic about BC, not because of his ability but because of the limits he is most likely forced to operate under. This off season will be an indicator of whether he thinks he can turn around the organization quickly (which would mean he found a distance amount of talent in the system) or if he is building for 2023 or later.

[Bobster21]

746F62636A6669070 wrote: I, for one, like this thread very much.  It is what being a baseball fan is all about.  If you put three baseball fans in a room together they will disagree about baseball.  I enjoy and seek out opinions about baseball that are different than mine.  Their philosophy about baseball is a way to get to know them.  I met some good friends on the PMB and I hope to do the same thing here.  I haven't seen one thing that is even remotely "nasty" on this thread, but rather just solid opinions about Pirate baseball.
No, there's nothing nasty here. I was speaking in general terms. My experience many years ago at PMB became very unpleasant and we try to make sure everyone enjoys OBN.

[UtahPirate]

"Did you check out all the activity he has done? International spending is through the roof ... "



Sorry to just cut and paste, but the long piles of discussion start driving me a bit crazy. And forgive me if keeping them is some unwritten board rule.



Thanks for bringing this up Surgnbuck. Just for reference to your original post, I was critical of the Marte trade from the outset and would have preferred a risky 19-year old and a couple of moderate AA guys to two risky 19-year olds and stated that at the time. So I've been a little wary since then watching BC operate.



But I wanted add that I've been impressed at what is going on with our international signings, which I believe is 49 players so far (and a few like the pitcher from Taiwan have been top notch prospects). I was disappointed that we didn't do a little more at the deadline (but everything is so odd this year), however getting international money for Dyson (who was a worth a bag of balls or a rookie card of Mario Mendoza) and then moving two minor leaguers -- Robles and Loeprich -- for more international money indicated that we were trying to get things in place and there actually was an international effort to sign specific players.



So color me encouraged at some of the things that are happening that you mention. I also thought we had an interesting draft with some calculated risk taking on a couple of guys (especially Mlodzinski) that I liked.



I get how the half full/half empty arguments go for Buc fans and that have raged on this board for a long time. And I'm getting older, so hate to see talk of another window of some sort. But at least I'm seeing the earmarks of some sort of plan come into view.

[GreenWeenie]

1025323239003232393E32570 wrote: I, for one, like this thread very much.  It is what being a baseball fan is all about.  If you put three baseball fans in a room together they will disagree about baseball.  I enjoy and seek out opinions about baseball that are different than mine.  Their philosophy about baseball is a way to get to know them.  I met some good friends on the PMB and I hope to do the same thing here.  I haven't seen one thing that is even remotely "nasty" on this thread, but rather just solid opinions about Pirate baseball.


If Brian Cashman can market himself on the professional speaker's circuit as "The Most Second-Guessed Man On Earth," that tells me that Cherington is very fortunate to have fans like us. 



After all, it wasn't Cashman whose team finished dead last.



People have been arguing about baseball since Adam squared off against Eve.  It's the nature of the beast.  Comes with the territory.



Seems to me that fans who are upset about the status quo only prove how much we truly love the sport and this club. We've seen the smoke blown time after time. We suggest a better way. And, it IS the better way.



If we didn't have any issue with finishing so embarrassingly, we wouldn't be very good fans at all. 



Ordinary folks would have turned their backs on this franchise years ago, and I don't mean only five years ago.

[MaineBucs]

BC accepted a challenge that may be unachievable; trying to turn the Pirates into a successful franchise.



As most realize, he inherited inadequate talent at the major league level, a farm system that had a limited amount of upper end talent and not a whole lot of depth at AAA or AA (major league fill-ins), a management system that appeared to be using an outdated approach to on-field play and the development of players, and an owner who is loath to spending money.



The pandemic clearly rendered 2020 an odd year and not the best indicator or judge of a GM. And, with the pandemic now raging nearly as bad as it was when it first arrived on the scene, there are no assurances that the 2021 season will be any different than 2020; meaning it could be a jumbled mess of when teams are playing and under what terms.



Putting all of that aside, and assuming that BC is willing to take risks with an underperforming roster that likely has little likelihood of immediate success (winning in 2021), I believe what appears to me to be a trend in baseball could present some trade opportunities for BC.



More and more teams, at least in this year's play-offs and likely part of out of necessity, are resorting to bullpen starts; essentially using a mix of pitchers to make it through a game and to hold the other team in check. The Rays often used this approach during the season. The Pirates have a number of low salaried or cost controlled pitchers who could be of interest to other teams. Musgrove, Brault and Kuhl seem particularly suited to a roll of 3 innings and out, and perhaps this type of approach would benefit a pitcher like Williams.



Not expecting a boatload of talent in trade for any of the above, but perhaps there is an opening this off-season that may not have been as valued in the past. Just a thought.

[Surgnbuck]

162334343F0634343F3834510 wrote: I, for one, like this thread very much.  It is what being a baseball fan is all about.  If you put three baseball fans in a room together they will disagree about baseball.  I enjoy and seek out opinions about baseball that are different than mine.  Their philosophy about baseball is a way to get to know them.  I met some good friends on the PMB and I hope to do the same thing here.  I haven't seen one thing that is even remotely "nasty" on this thread, but rather just solid opinions about Pirate baseball.


If Brian Cashman can market himself on the professional speaker's circuit as "The Most Second-Guessed Man On Earth," that tells me that Cherington is very fortunate to have fans like us. 



After all, it wasn't Cashman whose team finished dead last.



People have been arguing about baseball since Adam squared off against Eve.  It's the nature of the beast.  Comes with the territory.



Seems to me that fans who are upset about the status quo only prove how much we truly love the sport and this club.  We've seen the smoke blown time after time.  We suggest a better way.  And, it IS the better way.



If we didn't have any issue with finishing so embarrassingly, we wouldn't be very good fans at all. 



Ordinary folks would have turned their backs on this franchise years ago, and I don't mean only five years ago.





Cashman inherited a dynasty, won 3 in a row with it, and has one championship since then, in 2009. In other words, the team that won 3, which was at it's core home grown, was the work of the previous GM. All he's done is thrown tons of money at players, and in 20 seasons now has one WS title to show for his awesomeness. I wonder how many GM's, NH included, could have won at least one WS title in all of those years just by opening a checkbook. Maybe that's why he's second guessed in NY. 11 years is a long time in Yankee years.



Probably the worst example of any GM you could have picked to compare Cherington against.

[GreenWeenie]

It appears to me that you missed my point.  If I wasn't clear enough, that's my fault.



My point is that Cashman calls himself "The Most Second-Guessed Man On Earth."  Some of that is because of population....and, popularity of the team worldwide.  I would think that the NYC metro population is a little larger than The Burgh's.



If he can be second-guessed as often as Yankees fans are known to do, then it seems apparent to me that the general manager of other teams- including our Pittsburgh Pirates- accept the fact that people are going to be critical of their decisions.



The criticism that Cherington's received on this board is a sauna bath compared to things I've heard over here in the Philly area about their sports teams' management. Probably true of Boston and NYC teams, too. If a major league sports executive can't handle it, then they should go into a less visible and less demanding occupation.

[SammyKhalifa]

6E5B4C4C477E4C4C47404C290 wrote: It appears to me that you missed my point.  If I wasn't clear enough, that's my fault.



My point is that Cashman calls himself "The Most Second-Guessed Man On Earth."  Some of that is because of population....and, popularity of the team worldwide.  I would think that the NYC metro population is a little larger than The Burgh's.



If he can be second-guessed as often as Yankees fans are known to do, then it seems apparent to me that the general manager of other teams- including our Pittsburgh Pirates- accept the fact that people are going to be critical of their decisions.



The criticism that Cherington's received on this board is a sauna bath compared to things I've heard over here in the Philly area about their sports teams' management.  Probably true of Boston and NYC teams, too.  If a major league sports executive can't handle it, then they should go into a less visible and less demanding occupation.


It's not about Cherington's feelings, though, as I doubt he reads OBN or other forums:  it's about the quality/quantity of discussion:





"What a beautiful spring day.  I'm so glad that camp starts and maybe we can get back to normal"



"YOU KEEP DRINKING THE KOOL AID NUTTING APOLOGISTS!  CHERINGTON SUCKS!  SALE THE TEAM!"



"Uh, okay . . . "



Not saying that's going on here or it will, but I've seen it.  It's is tiresome.



But more to the present, I'm still not sure how anyone can have much of an opinion on the new GM when we haven't had any results yet.  Saying he's good or bad is so premature at this point, like a teacher handing out grades before the student even hands the test in.