Time for the city to play hardball

[JollyRoger]

7A76772C252C24292E312B1C0 wrote: I hold an unpopular opinion.



Somebody else is always 'the person' who does things.  The city, the state, the commissioner, some politician(s), "MLB" (whatever that means.  It must mean the other 29 owners.)



I'm not sure that any of them can force BOB or any other owner to do something different unless it's found that they're in violation of some law or contract. 



Is there a law against being cheap?



Is there a law against focusing the core of your business plan on hiring less-experienced, thus lower-compensated talent?



I don't mean to be "smart," but that's what the BOB Issue tends to get down to.



We might not like it, but franchise values continue to increase regardless of whether stands are full or empty.  That's just the way things are.



I say, let the market dictate.  Fan boycotts have failed more than once in The Burgh.



BOB has an incentive to offer a better team.  The higher the attendance, the higher the team's profits.  It's in his best interest to field a competitive roster.



No owner wants to see empty seats.  No owner wants to see lower Nielsen ratings or Google clicks. 



I'm not really sure what can be done to "force" BOB to make significant changes.  The players union has unsuccessfully challenged the Pirates and other teams.  The owners have accepted what the Pirates submit to them. 



Wish I had an answer, but I don't. 



Seems to me that it comes down to individual choices.  Go to games, tune in, click if you like.  Or, not if you don't.



If the day ever comes that he makes less money than he wants, that will be the time that he changes his current ways.  Until then, we hope for the best like fans of all the other teams.






What you propose is just accepting the status quo.

I have to believe by playing the PNC lease card it can put pressure on Nutting. Proving intent is important in litigation.

There is no doubt that by paying for PNC Park with taxpayer dollars it was with the “intent” that the Pirates would remain in Pittsburgh and that it would allow the franchise to be competitive and be able to keep their star players. This has not happened. Furthermore it is evident that Nutting has not only failed to meet an average payroll but he has never kept a home grown star player or even attempted to acquire star level free agents. He continues to reap additional profits by getting “welfare” payments from MLB and the major market luxury tax teams.
You are so right the intent to build a new ballpark was to make the team more competitive, and to be able to retain their star players. Those early years the Pirates extended Kendall and Giles, and contracts were signed in later years by Cutch, Marte and Polanco. Yes, they signed Hayes this past April, but it appears that no extensions are on the horizon. Nutting has avoided speaking to the local media about the State of the Team for almost two years, that is not right. With him being silent it gives me the impression his next move is to approach another city, about moving the franchise.
Fortunately Nutting cannot move the franchise until 2031 as the lease has specific language to prohibit him from doing that

[GreenWeenie]

I think BOB silenced himself when it became clear to him that he has nothing to gain if he talks.



Nothing he says can sway what people think of the way his club is run.  It's what he does that matters.



His words fell on deaf ears long ago.  Better to just bow out for a while, like until things look better.  I assume that the day will come.  I don't know when.

[fjk090852-7]

507576766348757D7F681A0 wrote: I hold an unpopular opinion.



Somebody else is always 'the person' who does things.  The city, the state, the commissioner, some politician(s), "MLB" (whatever that means.  It must mean the other 29 owners.)



I'm not sure that any of them can force BOB or any other owner to do something different unless it's found that they're in violation of some law or contract. 



Is there a law against being cheap?



Is there a law against focusing the core of your business plan on hiring less-experienced, thus lower-compensated talent?



I don't mean to be "smart," but that's what the BOB Issue tends to get down to.



We might not like it, but franchise values continue to increase regardless of whether stands are full or empty.  That's just the way things are.



I say, let the market dictate.  Fan boycotts have failed more than once in The Burgh.



BOB has an incentive to offer a better team.  The higher the attendance, the higher the team's profits.  It's in his best interest to field a competitive roster.



No owner wants to see empty seats.  No owner wants to see lower Nielsen ratings or Google clicks. 



I'm not really sure what can be done to "force" BOB to make significant changes.  The players union has unsuccessfully challenged the Pirates and other teams.  The owners have accepted what the Pirates submit to them. 



Wish I had an answer, but I don't. 



Seems to me that it comes down to individual choices.  Go to games, tune in, click if you like.  Or, not if you don't.



If the day ever comes that he makes less money than he wants, that will be the time that he changes his current ways.  Until then, we hope for the best like fans of all the other teams.






What you propose is just accepting the status quo.

I have to believe by playing the PNC lease card it can put pressure on Nutting. Proving intent is important in litigation.

There is no doubt that by paying for PNC Park with taxpayer dollars it was with the “intent” that the Pirates would remain in Pittsburgh and that it would allow the franchise to be competitive and be able to keep their star players. This has not happened. Furthermore it is evident that Nutting has not only failed to meet an average payroll but he has never kept a home grown star player or even attempted to acquire star level free agents. He continues to reap additional profits by getting “welfare” payments from MLB and the major market luxury tax teams.
You are so right the intent to build a new ballpark was to make the team more competitive, and to be able to retain their star players. Those early years the Pirates extended Kendall and Giles, and contracts were signed in later years by Cutch, Marte and Polanco. Yes, they signed Hayes this past April, but it appears that no extensions are on the horizon. Nutting has avoided speaking to the local media about the State of the Team for almost two years, that is not right. With him being silent it gives me the impression his next move is to approach another city, about moving the franchise.
Fortunately Nutting cannot move the franchise until 2031 as the lease has specific language to prohibit him from doing that
Wouldn’t it be great before 2031 that he would sell the team to an owner who would be willing to operate it like a normal franchise.

[Ecbucs]

0E2B28283D162B232136440 wrote: I really doubt that MLB would abandon Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh has proven that it can support a ML baseball team. They averaged over 30K a game when PNC opened and when they had a competitive team from 2013-2015

In 30 years the Pirates have only had 4 winning seasons.

No team is going to draw well with that tract record.

One of the amazing things that has happened in the last couple of years is the San Diego Padres, a team that is a small market with less Corporate clout than Pittsburgh, has been spending money as if they were the Dodgers. Not saying Pittsburgh should follow suit, but an average ML payroll which is now approximately 150M should be expected


I don't think they will abandon Pittsburgh either, although it isn't a large market, MLB does better in ratings etc. because Pittsburgh has a major league team. A minor league team loses pretty much all of it. There isn't enough overlap in territory where fans will start rooting for Cleveland.

[2drfischer@gmail.c]

I've always agreed that the city and state governments are best suited to take the lead in forcing Nutting's hand. The organization argued that Three Rivers Stadium lacked the necessities to bring in the revenues required to be competitive. The city and state leaders, against the wishes of the taxpayers, built PNC Park to answer that need. Nutting should to be made to hold up the Pirates end of the bargain.

[GreenWeenie]

Let me see whether I understand things correctly.



We want politicians to hold someone else to higher standards.



I see....

[Leyland1948]

Pennsylvania lawmakers calling for audit of Phillies and Pirates rental payments purposed by two state lawmakers a month ago! The state contributed 320million for four stadiums in Pennsylvania which includes PNC Park

[Bobster21]

7A4F5858536A58585354583D0 wrote: I think BOB silenced himself when it became clear to him that he has nothing to gain if he talks.



Nothing he says can sway what people think of the way his club is run.  It's what he does that matters.



His words fell on deaf ears long ago.  Better to just bow out for a while, like until things look better.  I assume that the day will come.  I don't know when.
That is my impression as well. I don't believe he has some deep, dark plan. He BS'd the public as long as he could and now knows everyone is wise to him. He's fine with that because he's operating a lucrative business. He simply refuses to engage in public statements anymore since no one buys the BS he was peddling. He's not trying to build a championship team. Or even a competitive one. He keeps expenses low to maximize profits. His ways are now solidly entrenched and it doesn't matter if the public likes it or not. He doesn't rely on attendance for profit. He gets other sources of revenue. He seems to avoid the public eye unless there's some Pirates charity event he can use for a positive photo op.

[GreenWeenie]

Here's another re-enforcer for me:



Let's look at his other ventures.



He's not all that talkative about those, either.



The upper crust don't need to go around talking.  So, most don't.



It's usually the "pretenders" or ego-centric who go around talking. 

[Javy]

702630242B31212A273002252F232B2E6C21420 wrote: I've always agreed that the city and state governments are best suited to take the lead in forcing Nutting's hand.  The organization argued that Three Rivers Stadium lacked the necessities to bring in the revenues required to be competitive.  The city and state leaders, against the wishes of the taxpayers, built PNC Park to answer that need.  Nutting should to be made to hold up the Pirates end of the bargain.


In todays world though Doc, I'm sure Nutting has greased some campaigns to ensure he goes untouched by local and state politicians should the issue come before them. Even then, he'd probably screw them over if a chance to relocate for more profit came his way.