OnlyBucs

Surgnbuck wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2024 2:24 am Interesting about Face and HOF voting. Never dropped off ballot until his eligibility was up. He was 5.9% his first year, and reached as high as 18.9%. I know a lot has to do with the class your in each year. He went down to as low as 5.3%. His final year he was 11.3%, and was 10.5% his second to last year.

What on earth could have caused such a change? One player that's interesting to look at during 13 of Face's 15 years on the ballot, Don Larsen was also on the ballot. Larsen finished ahead of Face every year...until Larsen's 10th year, and he received fewer votes than Face the rest of his eligibility.

There's no rhyme or reason with HOF voting.

No disrespect to Larsen, but he got a ton of mileage out of that perfect game, rightly so. However, for his career, he was a sub .500 pitcher. Without his perfecto, it likely he would have never been on the ballot, or off of it after his first year.

Another reason for the irregularity of the voting is the fact that new writers come in to the BBWAA for HOF voting yearly as older members drop off. That could account for some of the voting drop-off we see on players year by year. Some crusty old writer who was around for most of Elroy's career, drops out and is replaced by someone who never saw him pitch and the new guy votes for someone he actually saw.

Surgnbuck wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2024 2:24 am Interesting about Face and HOF voting. Never dropped off ballot until his eligibility was up. He was 5.9% his first year, and reached as high as 18.9%. I know a lot has to do with the class your in each year. He went down to as low as 5.3%. His final year he was 11.3%, and was 10.5% his second to last year.

What on earth could have caused such a change? One player that's interesting to look at during 13 of Face's 15 years on the ballot, Don Larsen was also on the ballot. Larsen finished ahead of Face every year...until Larsen's 10th year, and he received fewer votes than Face the rest of his eligibility.

There's no rhyme or reason with HOF voting.

I've always felt that if Face's career had been as a Yankee he would have been widely held as the premier reliever of his time and a no-doubt HOFer. But prior to the 24-hour sports networks, very few MLB fans or media knew much about Face. Pittsburgh got little national media attention. Even Clemente needed the 1971 WS audience for the country to see how talented he was instead of just hearing about him.

It's funny that some insist Maz got into the HOF because of one famous HR. But that ignores the fact that he is still considered the greatest fielding 2Bman of all time and Bill James graded him out as the top defender at any position. But other than his perfect game in the WS, Larsen had a career 81-91 record and 3.78 ERA. His highest 3 season win totals were 11, 10 and 9. But his one career highlight was as a Yankee and got national attention. The idea that Larsen finished ahead of Face in voting is absurd. But HOF voters were influenced by the bright lights of NY and barely could find Pittsburgh on a map.

I looked at Face's game logs for his 18 win season. It looks like only 4 times did he blow a save and get a win. I always thought that it more like ten that year.

Most closers probably get at least a couple wins after blowing saves.

Ecbucs wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2024 1:32 pm I looked at Face's game logs for his 18 win season. It looks like only 4 times did he blow a save and get a win. I always thought that it more like ten that year.

Most closers probably get at least a couple wins after blowing saves.

That's right. Face had 4 blown saves that became wins. There were 3 other games where the score was tied and he gave up the go ahead run but the Pirates then scored 2 to win. Since he didn't give up the lead in those games they were not blown saves.

Back then, saves were not the big deal they are today because the top reliever was more valuable getting out of jams (the "fireman" role) than waiting to see if the other pitchers could hand him a lead to protect in the 9th. Face was not a 1-inning pitcher and always had substantially more innings than games. He exceeded 90 innings in relief 6 times including twice over 100. Nevertheless, he was the only National Leaguer to finish among the top 5 in saves during each of the 1957 through 1963 seasons. He led the NL in that department in 1958, finished 2nd in 1960 and would go on to lead the NL again in 1961 and 1962. He had 8 seasons with an ERA below 3.00 including 1.88 in 1962. Face had excellent control and although he wasn't a high strikeout pitcher, that forkball looked like a fastball coming in and just dropped off the table, getting weak contact.