4E6A7E76731F0 wrote: it is all about nutting, if he doesn't open the purse strings we have no chance to get better IMO. one good starter to eat innings would be a nice start but not holding my breath.
Personally, I think we have seen the best the Bucs will do for a three year stretch for a while. Our dark years are about to return, especially if cheapskate doesn't open the purse strings. I have no faith he will. Our rotation next year will be dreadful. I think Bobster touched on that.
I don't think the dark years ahead, if in fact there are some dark ones coming, will be nearly as bad as during the more than two decades of losing we witnessed previously. We've got a lot better core of position players that will be around for a while and good prospects that will bolster the rotation in the foreseeable future.
My biggest concern is about 2017. The Pirates are at a tipping point. If they spend serious money on the best FA starter they can and make a trade for a top of the rotation starter they'll be right back in contention for the playoffs if not the division title. If they do things on the cheap as usual I think 2017 will be a Pirate shipwreck.
Obviously, the Pirates will operate financially as they always do. But that doesn't mean a bad year(s) ahead. The problems this year were a lack of offense at 1B and bad seasons by good players: Cutch, Cole, Cervelli and Liriano. As long as Bell can catch the ball (unlike Pedro), they should have good offense at 1B. I can't believe Cutch won't bounce back. And a move to LF will improve team defense. Cervelli should do better. Cole has to pitch better. A full year of Taillon instead of a struggling Liriano will help. Kuhl should be better than Nicasio/Vogelsong. If Hutchison starts (as I expect), it will hold the team back. Maybe Glasnow emerges at some point. Otherwise, there are 2 questionable spots in the rotation and we won't see big money spent on pitchers, not to mention the FA class is questionable anyway. The bullpen looks shaky as Watson and Rivero are inconsistent at the back end. I see the team good enough to contend for a WC spot. Unless guys being depended on fail again.
What direction do the Bucs go?
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
What direction do the Bucs go?
There is nothing to indicate that the Pirates are heading into a series of losing seasons. This was a train wreck of a season and they were still in WC contention in the last week.
Honestly, where are you expecting them to get worse? Everyone likes to rail on the pitching, but even if they get no one, their starting pitching likely isn't going to be worse than this year with the "production" we got out of LIriano, Niese, Locke and an injured Cole (not to mention Nicasio and Vogelsong). Even if you go with Cole, Taillon, Kuhl, Glasnow, & Hutchison, they will likely be better.
Honestly, where are you expecting them to get worse? Everyone likes to rail on the pitching, but even if they get no one, their starting pitching likely isn't going to be worse than this year with the "production" we got out of LIriano, Niese, Locke and an injured Cole (not to mention Nicasio and Vogelsong). Even if you go with Cole, Taillon, Kuhl, Glasnow, & Hutchison, they will likely be better.
-
Bobster21
What direction do the Bucs go?
5D406466680D0 wrote: There is nothing to indicate that the Pirates are heading into a series of losing seasons. This was a train wreck of a season and they were still in WC contention in the last week.
Honestly, where are you expecting them to get worse? Everyone likes to rail on the pitching, but even if they get no one, their starting pitching likely isn't going to be worse than this year with the "production" we got out of LIriano, Niese, Locke and an injured Cole (not to mention Nicasio and Vogelsong). Even if you go with Cole, Taillon, Kuhl, Glasnow, & Hutchison, they will likely be better.
I don't disagree with you but I would caution that the only reason they were in WC contention was because the teams ahead of them didn't distance themselves while the Pirates were essentially a .500 team the entire season. If they were no worse next year and again played .500 ball all year, they could find themselves not even in WC contention if the other teams improved.
Honestly, where are you expecting them to get worse? Everyone likes to rail on the pitching, but even if they get no one, their starting pitching likely isn't going to be worse than this year with the "production" we got out of LIriano, Niese, Locke and an injured Cole (not to mention Nicasio and Vogelsong). Even if you go with Cole, Taillon, Kuhl, Glasnow, & Hutchison, they will likely be better.
I don't disagree with you but I would caution that the only reason they were in WC contention was because the teams ahead of them didn't distance themselves while the Pirates were essentially a .500 team the entire season. If they were no worse next year and again played .500 ball all year, they could find themselves not even in WC contention if the other teams improved.
What direction do the Bucs go?
If the Pirates are going to contend...the goal must be to win the division. Regardless of the talent level of other teams....they cannot try to assemble enough talent to get a WC but not enough to challenge for the division. That was one of many critical mistakes they made this past off season. Despite this FO's mantra of being "good enough"..... it's not enough. You cannot tell me teams are able to say "we aren't good enough to win 95+ games but we are good enough to win 86-94 games" while assembling a team.
What direction do the Bucs go?
1F3F2C31305E0 wrote: If the Pirates are going to contend...the goal must be to win the division. Regardless of the talent level of other teams....they cannot try to assemble enough talent to get a WC but not enough to challenge for the division. That was one of many critical mistakes they made this past off season. Despite this FO's mantra of being "good enough"..... it's not enough. You cannot tell me teams are able to say "we aren't good enough to win 95+ games but we are good enough to win 86-94 games" while assembling a team.
I agree that the goal has to be to go for the Division. Then wild card becomes fall back rather than goal.
With the second wild card over half the teams were technically in contention for Wild Card spot in NL with a week to go.
I agree that the goal has to be to go for the Division. Then wild card becomes fall back rather than goal.
With the second wild card over half the teams were technically in contention for Wild Card spot in NL with a week to go.
-
steve49
What direction do the Bucs go?
143934252233246467560 wrote: This regime has proven repeatedly that they won't spent significantly to improve talent. So it serves no purpose to speculate on any moves that would not be in keeping with a low payroll. That said, I expect a rotation of Cole, Taillon, Kuhl, Hutchison (gotta make a pathetic attempt to justify the Liriano salary dump trade), and a reclamation project. Hutchsion will subsequently be replaced by Glasnow who starts the season in Indy. The core will remain intact since it is talented and within the desired payroll. Bell will be at 1B with the OF intact. Rodriguez will cost too much as a FA and be replaced by Frazier. Feliz will go. NH will again piece together a decent bullpen. The success or failure will depend on bounce backs from Cutch, Cole and Cervelli.
I think they sign Nova and try like heck to find a decent LHP and Hutchison is the odd man out if they do.
I think they sign Nova and try like heck to find a decent LHP and Hutchison is the odd man out if they do.
What direction do the Bucs go?
1232213C3D530 wrote: If the Pirates are going to contend...the goal must be to win the division. Regardless of the talent level of other teams....they cannot try to assemble enough talent to get a WC but not enough to challenge for the division. That was one of many critical mistakes they made this past off season. Despite this FO's mantra of being "good enough"..... it's not enough. You cannot tell me teams are able to say "we aren't good enough to win 95+ games but we are good enough to win 86-94 games" while assembling a team.
This idea of trying to assemble a team that can win the division or win a WC spot doesn't make any sense. How would the FO actually quantify that before the season. I'm pretty sure they go out to win the division with the real purpose of winning as many games as possible.
That said, I really don't see how the Pirates are going to be able to assemble a team that, on paper, is better than the Cubs. I think they can go toe to toe offensively, but there is no way they can match up with their pitching, regardless of what they do this off season. And that doesn't even take into account what the Cubs may do this winter.
Let's say they were to trade someone like Marte for Carrasco and sign Nova. Best case scenario would be that Bell slots into the OF and Jaso is back at first, both performing well. Meadows takes over at midseason and pushes Bell back to first. We'll say that they don't lose any offense. A rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco, Nova, and Kuhl/Glansow, still isn't in the same league as the Cubs over a 162 games season.
This idea of trying to assemble a team that can win the division or win a WC spot doesn't make any sense. How would the FO actually quantify that before the season. I'm pretty sure they go out to win the division with the real purpose of winning as many games as possible.
That said, I really don't see how the Pirates are going to be able to assemble a team that, on paper, is better than the Cubs. I think they can go toe to toe offensively, but there is no way they can match up with their pitching, regardless of what they do this off season. And that doesn't even take into account what the Cubs may do this winter.
Let's say they were to trade someone like Marte for Carrasco and sign Nova. Best case scenario would be that Bell slots into the OF and Jaso is back at first, both performing well. Meadows takes over at midseason and pushes Bell back to first. We'll say that they don't lose any offense. A rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco, Nova, and Kuhl/Glansow, still isn't in the same league as the Cubs over a 162 games season.
What direction do the Bucs go?
180521232D480 wrote: If the Pirates are going to contend...the goal must be to win the division. Regardless of the talent level of other teams....they cannot try to assemble enough talent to get a WC but not enough to challenge for the division. That was one of many critical mistakes they made this past off season. Despite this FO's mantra of being "good enough"..... it's not enough. You cannot tell me teams are able to say "we aren't good enough to win 95+ games but we are good enough to win 86-94 games" while assembling a team.
This idea of trying to assemble a team that can win the division or win a WC spot doesn't make any sense. How would the FO actually quantify that before the season. I'm pretty sure they go out to win the division with the real purpose of winning as many games as possible.
That said, I really don't see how the Pirates are going to be able to assemble a team that, on paper, is better than the Cubs. I think they can go toe to toe offensively, but there is no way they can match up with their pitching, regardless of what they do this off season. And that doesn't even take into account what the Cubs may do this winter.
Let's say they were to trade someone like Marte for Carrasco and sign Nova. Best case scenario would be that Bell slots into the OF and Jaso is back at first, both performing well. Meadows takes over at midseason and pushes Bell back to first. We'll say that they don't lose any offense. A rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco, Nova, and Kuhl/Glansow, still isn't in the same league as the Cubs over a 162 games season.
PMike- your points are well taken, but if the Pirates have a rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco, Nova and Kuhl/Glasnow I'd be optimistic that we could compete with anyone. Sure, on paper the Cubs look to be a powerhouse with no peer, but when the games get played things don't always turn out as expected. Case in point being our former nemesis Arrieta. We torched him pretty well this season. Of course I don't see much more than a snowflake's chance in hell that the Pirate rotation you've suggested will actually come to fruition.
This idea of trying to assemble a team that can win the division or win a WC spot doesn't make any sense. How would the FO actually quantify that before the season. I'm pretty sure they go out to win the division with the real purpose of winning as many games as possible.
That said, I really don't see how the Pirates are going to be able to assemble a team that, on paper, is better than the Cubs. I think they can go toe to toe offensively, but there is no way they can match up with their pitching, regardless of what they do this off season. And that doesn't even take into account what the Cubs may do this winter.
Let's say they were to trade someone like Marte for Carrasco and sign Nova. Best case scenario would be that Bell slots into the OF and Jaso is back at first, both performing well. Meadows takes over at midseason and pushes Bell back to first. We'll say that they don't lose any offense. A rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco, Nova, and Kuhl/Glansow, still isn't in the same league as the Cubs over a 162 games season.
PMike- your points are well taken, but if the Pirates have a rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco, Nova and Kuhl/Glasnow I'd be optimistic that we could compete with anyone. Sure, on paper the Cubs look to be a powerhouse with no peer, but when the games get played things don't always turn out as expected. Case in point being our former nemesis Arrieta. We torched him pretty well this season. Of course I don't see much more than a snowflake's chance in hell that the Pirate rotation you've suggested will actually come to fruition.
What direction do the Bucs go?
100D292B25400 wrote: If the Pirates are going to contend...the goal must be to win the division. Regardless of the talent level of other teams....they cannot try to assemble enough talent to get a WC but not enough to challenge for the division. That was one of many critical mistakes they made this past off season. Despite this FO's mantra of being "good enough"..... it's not enough. You cannot tell me teams are able to say "we aren't good enough to win 95+ games but we are good enough to win 86-94 games" while assembling a team.
This idea of trying to assemble a team that can win the division or win a WC spot doesn't make any sense. How would the FO actually quantify that before the season. I'm pretty sure they go out to win the division with the real purpose of winning as many games as possible.
That said, I really don't see how the Pirates are going to be able to assemble a team that, on paper, is better than the Cubs. I think they can go toe to toe offensively, but there is no way they can match up with their pitching, regardless of what they do this off season. And that doesn't even take into account what the Cubs may do this winter.
Let's say they were to trade someone like Marte for Carrasco and sign Nova. Best case scenario would be that Bell slots into the OF and Jaso is back at first, both performing well. Meadows takes over at midseason and pushes Bell back to first. We'll say that they don't lose any offense. A rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco, Nova, and Kuhl/Glansow, still isn't in the same league as the Cubs over a 162 games season.
How they go about assembling a team that realistically can compete with the Cubs wasn't the point of my post. My point is how it needs to be the goal. As another poster mentioned....the goal should be to win the division with the wild card being the fallback. When the goal is the the wild card...the fallback becomes 78 wins.
This idea of trying to assemble a team that can win the division or win a WC spot doesn't make any sense. How would the FO actually quantify that before the season. I'm pretty sure they go out to win the division with the real purpose of winning as many games as possible.
That said, I really don't see how the Pirates are going to be able to assemble a team that, on paper, is better than the Cubs. I think they can go toe to toe offensively, but there is no way they can match up with their pitching, regardless of what they do this off season. And that doesn't even take into account what the Cubs may do this winter.
Let's say they were to trade someone like Marte for Carrasco and sign Nova. Best case scenario would be that Bell slots into the OF and Jaso is back at first, both performing well. Meadows takes over at midseason and pushes Bell back to first. We'll say that they don't lose any offense. A rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco, Nova, and Kuhl/Glansow, still isn't in the same league as the Cubs over a 162 games season.
How they go about assembling a team that realistically can compete with the Cubs wasn't the point of my post. My point is how it needs to be the goal. As another poster mentioned....the goal should be to win the division with the wild card being the fallback. When the goal is the the wild card...the fallback becomes 78 wins.
What direction do the Bucs go?
6343504D4C220 wrote: If the Pirates are going to contend...the goal must be to win the division. Regardless of the talent level of other teams....they cannot try to assemble enough talent to get a WC but not enough to challenge for the division. That was one of many critical mistakes they made this past off season. Despite this FO's mantra of being "good enough"..... it's not enough. You cannot tell me teams are able to say "we aren't good enough to win 95+ games but we are good enough to win 86-94 games" while assembling a team.
This idea of trying to assemble a team that can win the division or win a WC spot doesn't make any sense. How would the FO actually quantify that before the season. I'm pretty sure they go out to win the division with the real purpose of winning as many games as possible.
That said, I really don't see how the Pirates are going to be able to assemble a team that, on paper, is better than the Cubs. I think they can go toe to toe offensively, but there is no way they can match up with their pitching, regardless of what they do this off season. And that doesn't even take into account what the Cubs may do this winter.
Let's say they were to trade someone like Marte for Carrasco and sign Nova. Best case scenario would be that Bell slots into the OF and Jaso is back at first, both performing well. Meadows takes over at midseason and pushes Bell back to first. We'll say that they don't lose any offense. A rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco, Nova, and Kuhl/Glansow, still isn't in the same league as the Cubs over a 162 games season.
How they go about assembling a team that realistically can compete with the Cubs wasn't the point of my post. My point is how it needs to be the goal. As another poster mentioned....the goal should be to win the division with the wild card being the fallback. When the goal is the the wild card...the fallback becomes 78 wins.
Your first sentence was "the goal must be to win the division." If they are going to win the division, they have to be better than the Cubs. They aren't competing against all of the division winners in baseball. They are competing against the Cubs and to a lesser degree, the Cardinals. If anyone on this boards is going to talk about creating a team that can "win the division," the comparison of the team is going to be with the Cubs. There is no other way around it.
This idea of trying to assemble a team that can win the division or win a WC spot doesn't make any sense. How would the FO actually quantify that before the season. I'm pretty sure they go out to win the division with the real purpose of winning as many games as possible.
That said, I really don't see how the Pirates are going to be able to assemble a team that, on paper, is better than the Cubs. I think they can go toe to toe offensively, but there is no way they can match up with their pitching, regardless of what they do this off season. And that doesn't even take into account what the Cubs may do this winter.
Let's say they were to trade someone like Marte for Carrasco and sign Nova. Best case scenario would be that Bell slots into the OF and Jaso is back at first, both performing well. Meadows takes over at midseason and pushes Bell back to first. We'll say that they don't lose any offense. A rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco, Nova, and Kuhl/Glansow, still isn't in the same league as the Cubs over a 162 games season.
How they go about assembling a team that realistically can compete with the Cubs wasn't the point of my post. My point is how it needs to be the goal. As another poster mentioned....the goal should be to win the division with the wild card being the fallback. When the goal is the the wild card...the fallback becomes 78 wins.
Your first sentence was "the goal must be to win the division." If they are going to win the division, they have to be better than the Cubs. They aren't competing against all of the division winners in baseball. They are competing against the Cubs and to a lesser degree, the Cardinals. If anyone on this boards is going to talk about creating a team that can "win the division," the comparison of the team is going to be with the Cubs. There is no other way around it.