1B363B2A2D3C2B6B68590 wrote:
Pitching, pitching, pitching. I don't think we'll see the 'meh' kind of off season we have in the past. NH has to pull some pitching rabbits out of the hat whether through FA, or through trades.
I'll be surprised if this off season is much better than last. We all know this org operates on a shoestring budget by MLB standards and NH already said they will operate with a tight budget next year. And the FA pitching market is thin anyway. So even if they pick up a FA starter from a thin list on a small budget, it won't be an impact pitcher. They also don't like to trade prospects (unless it's to save money) and if they were willing to part with prospects for a good pitcher, that pitcher would probably have a contract inconsistent with a tight budget. I think they have looked to 2017 as a year the rotation would be inexpensive with players like Taillon, Kuhl and Glasnow in addition to Cole. But Glasnow may not be ready and so the 5th if not both 4th and 5th slots may yet need to be filled. All we know is that they won't be filled by expensive pitchers.
I think they know they need to do something and it may be a bit more radical than in the past. You could make a case for them taking the approach they did last year (as they called it a year of transition). And you can also poke holes in that approach. But I don't think they can do the same thing this year as the natives are restless, as they say, and there are pitching holes that clearly need to be filled. I'm going to take NH at these words (and then we can throw stones come February if he doesn't live up to them):
'If the Bucs can't find a free agent who fits their profile, they will not shy away from the trade market. They expressed an interest in a number of starters before the Aug. 1 Trade Deadline this year, but Pittsburgh found the asking prices to be too high, as they often are when sellers can take advantage of buyers' desperation.
"That's absolutely something we'll look to do this offseason," Huntington said. "It is a thin free-agent market, which creates an expensive trade market, but we've got some good players that we think could help us acquire a starting pitcher."'
http://m.pirates.mlb.com/news/article/2 ... -pitching/
2017 Outlook
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
2017 Outlook
I think this is the year they were really built for. But that also included Liriano in the rotation. That spot needs filled. Cole has to step up. maybe a new contract will get him going. Taillon will be the ace very soon. Kuhl earned a spot too.
The bullpen needs help too. I would look in bringing back Melancon. I don't know his price, but they did just pay him $9 million. Like you said, there are plenty of relief pitchers out there. Even some young guys can help out there if they aren't in the rotation.
The line up is fine. I expect all the starters back with Bell taking over 1B. Jaso can be on the bench, I am ok with that. I expect an extension to Mercer. Everyone else is signed long term. Frazier will be a solid bench guy along with Freese. Still a few spots open. If Kang can play SS again, they won't need a light hitting middle infielder. They can get another Joyce type.
I expect good things from the 2017 Pirates. But there are some holes that need filled. I expect them to be filled. If not, I might change my tune.
The bullpen needs help too. I would look in bringing back Melancon. I don't know his price, but they did just pay him $9 million. Like you said, there are plenty of relief pitchers out there. Even some young guys can help out there if they aren't in the rotation.
The line up is fine. I expect all the starters back with Bell taking over 1B. Jaso can be on the bench, I am ok with that. I expect an extension to Mercer. Everyone else is signed long term. Frazier will be a solid bench guy along with Freese. Still a few spots open. If Kang can play SS again, they won't need a light hitting middle infielder. They can get another Joyce type.
I expect good things from the 2017 Pirates. But there are some holes that need filled. I expect them to be filled. If not, I might change my tune.
2017 Outlook
5E737E6F68796E2E2D1C0 wrote: The lineup remains pretty solid as long as some players bounce back. It's not as if we're expecting anyone to do more than he's proven he can do. Bell's bat will be a nice addition for a full season. Watson needs to be more consistent as well. The 2 main issues this year were unexpectedly bad years from proven players and the starting rotation. So if Cole, Cutch, Cervelli, Harrison and Watson rebound, that still leaves the rotation as an issue. Assuming Cole rebounds, Taillon will be solid and Kuhl should be respectable. We still don't know if Glasnow is ready for prime time. And the 5th spot is unresolved. All of which, in a best case scenario, points to a better record but still not enough starting pitching to challenge for the division.
I don't disagree with any of this. Personally, I think the goal for the next few years should be the WC, sadly. I just don't see us competing with the Cubs. I look at that team, and frankly, it's an All-Star team.
Bryant, Rizzo, Baez, Russell, Soler, Arrieta, Lester, Hendricks, Chapman...and you haven't even gotten to their "role" players like Fowler, Schwarber, and Heyward. I think our best shot is getting to the WC game, winning it, and taking our shots against them in a best of five. (Yes, I do think Chapman resigns with the Cubs.)
Don't know if you saw a previous post but I noted last week that the Cubs committed 280+ million to sign Heyward, Zobrist, Chapman, Lackey and Fowler while the Pirates traded Liriano and 2 top prospects just to free up enough money to extend Freese. Not exactly an equal playing field.
Point is valid ... very valid. Heyward played some terrible ball for them this year. Hopefully, that continues.
I don't disagree with any of this. Personally, I think the goal for the next few years should be the WC, sadly. I just don't see us competing with the Cubs. I look at that team, and frankly, it's an All-Star team.
Bryant, Rizzo, Baez, Russell, Soler, Arrieta, Lester, Hendricks, Chapman...and you haven't even gotten to their "role" players like Fowler, Schwarber, and Heyward. I think our best shot is getting to the WC game, winning it, and taking our shots against them in a best of five. (Yes, I do think Chapman resigns with the Cubs.)
Don't know if you saw a previous post but I noted last week that the Cubs committed 280+ million to sign Heyward, Zobrist, Chapman, Lackey and Fowler while the Pirates traded Liriano and 2 top prospects just to free up enough money to extend Freese. Not exactly an equal playing field.
Point is valid ... very valid. Heyward played some terrible ball for them this year. Hopefully, that continues.
2017 Outlook
040F070B0E0F145157201901080F0F4E030F600 wrote: I think this is the year they were really built for. But that also included Liriano in the rotation. That spot needs filled. Cole has to step up. maybe a new contract will get him going. Taillon will be the ace very soon. Kuhl earned a spot too.
The bullpen needs help too. I would look in bringing back Melancon. I don't know his price, but they did just pay him $9 million. Like you said, there are plenty of relief pitchers out there. Even some young guys can help out there if they aren't in the rotation.
The line up is fine. I expect all the starters back with Bell taking over 1B. Jaso can be on the bench, I am ok with that. I expect an extension to Mercer. Everyone else is signed long term. Frazier will be a solid bench guy along with Freese. Still a few spots open. If Kang can play SS again, they won't need a light hitting middle infielder. They can get another Joyce type.
I expect good things from the 2017 Pirates. But there are some holes that need filled. I expect them to be filled. If not, I might change my tune.
Holes being filled and holes being filled with competent talents are two different things. I'm sure they will be filled, but not by a good player.
The bullpen needs help too. I would look in bringing back Melancon. I don't know his price, but they did just pay him $9 million. Like you said, there are plenty of relief pitchers out there. Even some young guys can help out there if they aren't in the rotation.
The line up is fine. I expect all the starters back with Bell taking over 1B. Jaso can be on the bench, I am ok with that. I expect an extension to Mercer. Everyone else is signed long term. Frazier will be a solid bench guy along with Freese. Still a few spots open. If Kang can play SS again, they won't need a light hitting middle infielder. They can get another Joyce type.
I expect good things from the 2017 Pirates. But there are some holes that need filled. I expect them to be filled. If not, I might change my tune.
Holes being filled and holes being filled with competent talents are two different things. I'm sure they will be filled, but not by a good player.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
2017 Outlook
That's what I meant. I knew you would think that way too.
Holes filled with lesser players obviously wouldn't be filled holes from the 2016 team. The have enough bodies right now to fill out the rotation and bullpen. They need some upgrades.
Holes filled with lesser players obviously wouldn't be filled holes from the 2016 team. The have enough bodies right now to fill out the rotation and bullpen. They need some upgrades.
2017 Outlook
Great to see you posting IA.
I think your analysis is very fair. They have a very good team next year. They also have the capability of really tanking again.
First of all, I don't see them trading Harrison or Mercer. Both are signed at a very reasonable rate. Harrison had a bit of a down year, but he is a very productive player normally for what he is paid. Though he plays stupid sometimes, he is the best attitude on the team. If a certain three OFers played with his intensity, they'd place 1, 2, and 3 in the MVP race.
I don't think they trade Mercer because he is being paid so little and offers a solid amount defensively. They are still a team that is trying to win with pitching and defense. The SS position is valuable for them. If Newman was closer, that would be different.
I really think the most likely trade is one of the OFers. It would be a blockbuster for this franchise. I don't think NH will give one away, but now is the time to trade one and not lose out on much. I don't like trading Polanco because I think he could be the next MVP out of them. I would be OK trading Marte or McCutchen for a young starting pitcher. They could easily hide Bell in the OF until Meadows comes up midseason. In the meantime, Freese and Jaso could play first. This potential move also explains why they made signing Freese a priority. When Meadows comes up, they can put Bell back at first and they can trade Jaso or put him back on the bench.
That OFer trade would then address the glaring problem with the staff without costing them much (perhaps even getting money back).
Who knows if the Nova cost rumors will be true. I'd prefer to have him but they can't sign him at the rumored numbers. If not, I would make an effort to sign someone like Hellickson. He is young, he's been a pitcher with promise early in his career. He probably won't cost too much. With of couple of those moves, the lineup would look like this:
C - Cervelli
1B - Jaso/Freese - until midseason
2B - Harrison
SS - Mercer
3B - Kang - should be fully healthy and an everyday player this year
OF - Bell, Polanco, Marte/McCutchen
Bench:
Jaso/Freese
Frazier
Backup Catcher
FA Outfielder/J. Osuna
Hanson
Rotation:
Cole
Taillon
Traded Pitcher (Quintana, Archer, Carrasco...)
Nova/Hellickson - FA pitcher
Glasnow
Rotation depth would be:
Kuhl
Brault (who I am still very high on)
Hutchison
T. Williams
NH will have to rebuild the bullpen like every year. I give a pass for last year. He has gotten it right every year except last. Plus, last year's bullpen got torched for the first month and half. They pitched the most innings in baseball during that time.
I think the key is if they can get a good solid pitcher in a trade. Sticking someone like Carrasco, Quintana, or Archer in the third rotation spot is a game changer.
I think your analysis is very fair. They have a very good team next year. They also have the capability of really tanking again.
First of all, I don't see them trading Harrison or Mercer. Both are signed at a very reasonable rate. Harrison had a bit of a down year, but he is a very productive player normally for what he is paid. Though he plays stupid sometimes, he is the best attitude on the team. If a certain three OFers played with his intensity, they'd place 1, 2, and 3 in the MVP race.
I don't think they trade Mercer because he is being paid so little and offers a solid amount defensively. They are still a team that is trying to win with pitching and defense. The SS position is valuable for them. If Newman was closer, that would be different.
I really think the most likely trade is one of the OFers. It would be a blockbuster for this franchise. I don't think NH will give one away, but now is the time to trade one and not lose out on much. I don't like trading Polanco because I think he could be the next MVP out of them. I would be OK trading Marte or McCutchen for a young starting pitcher. They could easily hide Bell in the OF until Meadows comes up midseason. In the meantime, Freese and Jaso could play first. This potential move also explains why they made signing Freese a priority. When Meadows comes up, they can put Bell back at first and they can trade Jaso or put him back on the bench.
That OFer trade would then address the glaring problem with the staff without costing them much (perhaps even getting money back).
Who knows if the Nova cost rumors will be true. I'd prefer to have him but they can't sign him at the rumored numbers. If not, I would make an effort to sign someone like Hellickson. He is young, he's been a pitcher with promise early in his career. He probably won't cost too much. With of couple of those moves, the lineup would look like this:
C - Cervelli
1B - Jaso/Freese - until midseason
2B - Harrison
SS - Mercer
3B - Kang - should be fully healthy and an everyday player this year
OF - Bell, Polanco, Marte/McCutchen
Bench:
Jaso/Freese
Frazier
Backup Catcher
FA Outfielder/J. Osuna
Hanson
Rotation:
Cole
Taillon
Traded Pitcher (Quintana, Archer, Carrasco...)
Nova/Hellickson - FA pitcher
Glasnow
Rotation depth would be:
Kuhl
Brault (who I am still very high on)
Hutchison
T. Williams
NH will have to rebuild the bullpen like every year. I give a pass for last year. He has gotten it right every year except last. Plus, last year's bullpen got torched for the first month and half. They pitched the most innings in baseball during that time.
I think the key is if they can get a good solid pitcher in a trade. Sticking someone like Carrasco, Quintana, or Archer in the third rotation spot is a game changer.
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rucker59@gmail.com
2017 Outlook
332E0A0806630 wrote:
First of all, I don't see them trading Harrison or Mercer. Both are signed at a very reasonable rate. Harrison had a bit of a down year, but he is a very productive player normally for what he is paid. Though he plays stupid sometimes, he is the best attitude on the team. If a certain three OFers played with his intensity, they'd place 1, 2, and 3 in the MVP race. :)
........
I really think the most likely trade is one of the OFers. It would be a blockbuster for this franchise. I don't think NH will give one away, but now is the time to trade one and not lose out on much. I don't like trading Polanco because I think he could be the next MVP out of them. I would be OK trading Marte or McCutchen for a young starting pitcher. They could easily hide Bell in the OF.
This time last year I was sure 2017 and 18 would be the Pirates WS years. Now I have my doubts. With the limited financial flexibility available to Neal, is the core of this team good enough to build around? I now have my doubts.
The 2016 Pirates underachieved in many places (players, manager, GM and owner). Maybe they will bounce back in 2017, but it was a problem of heart too often and I'm not sure you bounce back from that.
I don't think the Pirates can add to this team and field a WS team. In fact, if Cole and Glasnow continue to struggle this team will simply be fighting for .500 again.
The Pirates either enter the season hoping for lots of luck, or they start making moves with their roster that aren't all driven by finances.
Last year, of all the units, the OF easily underperformed the most. The "best outfield in baseball" looked anything but that. And frankly, questions about attitude are most concerning. But there is a TON of value that can be unlocked. Time to deal from strength.
Trade Marte and Cutch in return for a good young 1st base (a Wil Myers), one young high potential major league ready starting pitcher, one #4 type guy and prospects. Resign Sean Rodriguez (here's a FA signing they can afford) to play CF, and move Bell to a corner OF.
Trade Harrison for another #4/5 guy and move Frazer to 2nd.
With the $$ saved from trading Cutch and Polanco resign Nova.
And here's the most controversal: trade Cole in return for a Kings ransom. Including a solid #3 and high end prospects.
Outfield: Bell, Rodriguez, Polanco
Infield: a Wil Myers clone, Frazer, Mercer, Kang, Cervilli
Rotation: Tallion, young gun from Marte/Cutch trades, Nova, and a host of ligit 3-5 guys from trades and internal.
Plus a restocked farm.
First of all, I don't see them trading Harrison or Mercer. Both are signed at a very reasonable rate. Harrison had a bit of a down year, but he is a very productive player normally for what he is paid. Though he plays stupid sometimes, he is the best attitude on the team. If a certain three OFers played with his intensity, they'd place 1, 2, and 3 in the MVP race. :)
........
I really think the most likely trade is one of the OFers. It would be a blockbuster for this franchise. I don't think NH will give one away, but now is the time to trade one and not lose out on much. I don't like trading Polanco because I think he could be the next MVP out of them. I would be OK trading Marte or McCutchen for a young starting pitcher. They could easily hide Bell in the OF.
This time last year I was sure 2017 and 18 would be the Pirates WS years. Now I have my doubts. With the limited financial flexibility available to Neal, is the core of this team good enough to build around? I now have my doubts.
The 2016 Pirates underachieved in many places (players, manager, GM and owner). Maybe they will bounce back in 2017, but it was a problem of heart too often and I'm not sure you bounce back from that.
I don't think the Pirates can add to this team and field a WS team. In fact, if Cole and Glasnow continue to struggle this team will simply be fighting for .500 again.
The Pirates either enter the season hoping for lots of luck, or they start making moves with their roster that aren't all driven by finances.
Last year, of all the units, the OF easily underperformed the most. The "best outfield in baseball" looked anything but that. And frankly, questions about attitude are most concerning. But there is a TON of value that can be unlocked. Time to deal from strength.
Trade Marte and Cutch in return for a good young 1st base (a Wil Myers), one young high potential major league ready starting pitcher, one #4 type guy and prospects. Resign Sean Rodriguez (here's a FA signing they can afford) to play CF, and move Bell to a corner OF.
Trade Harrison for another #4/5 guy and move Frazer to 2nd.
With the $$ saved from trading Cutch and Polanco resign Nova.
And here's the most controversal: trade Cole in return for a Kings ransom. Including a solid #3 and high end prospects.
Outfield: Bell, Rodriguez, Polanco
Infield: a Wil Myers clone, Frazer, Mercer, Kang, Cervilli
Rotation: Tallion, young gun from Marte/Cutch trades, Nova, and a host of ligit 3-5 guys from trades and internal.
Plus a restocked farm.
2017 Outlook
2720363E3027606C153238343C397B363A38550 wrote:
First of all, I don't see them trading Harrison or Mercer. Both are signed at a very reasonable rate. Harrison had a bit of a down year, but he is a very productive player normally for what he is paid. Though he plays stupid sometimes, he is the best attitude on the team. If a certain three OFers played with his intensity, they'd place 1, 2, and 3 in the MVP race. :)
........
I really think the most likely trade is one of the OFers. It would be a blockbuster for this franchise. I don't think NH will give one away, but now is the time to trade one and not lose out on much. I don't like trading Polanco because I think he could be the next MVP out of them. I would be OK trading Marte or McCutchen for a young starting pitcher. They could easily hide Bell in the OF.
This time last year I was sure 2017 and 18 would be the Pirates WS years. Now I have my doubts. With the limited financial flexibility available to Neal, is the core of this team good enough to build around? I now have my doubts.
The 2016 Pirates underachieved in many places (players, manager, GM and owner). Maybe they will bounce back in 2017, but it was a problem of heart too often and I'm not sure you bounce back from that.
I don't think the Pirates can add to this team and field a WS team. In fact, if Cole and Glasnow continue to struggle this team will simply be fighting for .500 again.
The Pirates either enter the season hoping for lots of luck, or they start making moves with their roster that aren't all driven by finances.
Last year, of all the units, the OF easily underperformed the most. The "best outfield in baseball" looked anything but that. And frankly, questions about attitude are most concerning. But there is a TON of value that can be unlocked. Time to deal from strength.
Trade Marte and Cutch in return for a good young 1st base (a Wil Myers), one young high potential major league ready starting pitcher, one #4 type guy and prospects. Resign Sean Rodriguez (here's a FA signing they can afford) to play CF, and move Bell to a corner OF.
Trade Harrison for another #4/5 guy and move Frazer to 2nd.
With the $$ saved from trading Cutch and Polanco resign Nova.
And here's the most controversal: trade Cole in return for a Kings ransom. Including a solid #3 and high end prospects.
Outfield: Bell, Rodriguez, Polanco
Infield: a Wil Myers clone, Frazer, Mercer, Kang, Cervilli
Rotation: Tallion, young gun from Marte/Cutch trades, Nova, and a host of ligit 3-5 guys from trades and internal.
Plus a restocked farm.
I don't think there is any such thing as a World Series team. You make the playoffs, then it's a crap shoot.
It makes no sense to trade Cole at this point. He is at a fairly low value and carries better upside than anyone you'll trade for. He was what, 4th in the Cy Young voting last year? Let this guy bounce back. He's your ace if he is healthy. Certainly trading him for a #3 and prospects is not a kings ransom.
There is no way they trade both McCutchen and Marte. You go from a very good defensive team to a terrible defensive team with Bell and Rodriguez replacing them for the long term. Rodriguez is not a CFer. That would be a disaster. Though I suppose the CF defense has been a bit of a disaster the last two years. I'm not sure why they need a "Will Myers clone" for 1B when they have Josh Bell.
I do like the idea of resigning Rodriguez. I have doubts though. He had a really big year and this year is more in line with his career lines and potential than last year. I'll bet he gets a big raise and they don't resign him. Unless they save a lot of money from trading McCutchen.
First of all, I don't see them trading Harrison or Mercer. Both are signed at a very reasonable rate. Harrison had a bit of a down year, but he is a very productive player normally for what he is paid. Though he plays stupid sometimes, he is the best attitude on the team. If a certain three OFers played with his intensity, they'd place 1, 2, and 3 in the MVP race. :)
........
I really think the most likely trade is one of the OFers. It would be a blockbuster for this franchise. I don't think NH will give one away, but now is the time to trade one and not lose out on much. I don't like trading Polanco because I think he could be the next MVP out of them. I would be OK trading Marte or McCutchen for a young starting pitcher. They could easily hide Bell in the OF.
This time last year I was sure 2017 and 18 would be the Pirates WS years. Now I have my doubts. With the limited financial flexibility available to Neal, is the core of this team good enough to build around? I now have my doubts.
The 2016 Pirates underachieved in many places (players, manager, GM and owner). Maybe they will bounce back in 2017, but it was a problem of heart too often and I'm not sure you bounce back from that.
I don't think the Pirates can add to this team and field a WS team. In fact, if Cole and Glasnow continue to struggle this team will simply be fighting for .500 again.
The Pirates either enter the season hoping for lots of luck, or they start making moves with their roster that aren't all driven by finances.
Last year, of all the units, the OF easily underperformed the most. The "best outfield in baseball" looked anything but that. And frankly, questions about attitude are most concerning. But there is a TON of value that can be unlocked. Time to deal from strength.
Trade Marte and Cutch in return for a good young 1st base (a Wil Myers), one young high potential major league ready starting pitcher, one #4 type guy and prospects. Resign Sean Rodriguez (here's a FA signing they can afford) to play CF, and move Bell to a corner OF.
Trade Harrison for another #4/5 guy and move Frazer to 2nd.
With the $$ saved from trading Cutch and Polanco resign Nova.
And here's the most controversal: trade Cole in return for a Kings ransom. Including a solid #3 and high end prospects.
Outfield: Bell, Rodriguez, Polanco
Infield: a Wil Myers clone, Frazer, Mercer, Kang, Cervilli
Rotation: Tallion, young gun from Marte/Cutch trades, Nova, and a host of ligit 3-5 guys from trades and internal.
Plus a restocked farm.
I don't think there is any such thing as a World Series team. You make the playoffs, then it's a crap shoot.
It makes no sense to trade Cole at this point. He is at a fairly low value and carries better upside than anyone you'll trade for. He was what, 4th in the Cy Young voting last year? Let this guy bounce back. He's your ace if he is healthy. Certainly trading him for a #3 and prospects is not a kings ransom.
There is no way they trade both McCutchen and Marte. You go from a very good defensive team to a terrible defensive team with Bell and Rodriguez replacing them for the long term. Rodriguez is not a CFer. That would be a disaster. Though I suppose the CF defense has been a bit of a disaster the last two years. I'm not sure why they need a "Will Myers clone" for 1B when they have Josh Bell.
I do like the idea of resigning Rodriguez. I have doubts though. He had a really big year and this year is more in line with his career lines and potential than last year. I'll bet he gets a big raise and they don't resign him. Unless they save a lot of money from trading McCutchen.
2017 Outlook
I would suggest they are more at the tinkering stage then the tear it down and rebuild stage. I could see Cutch moved to left. If someone from the outfield is traded I would expect that to be Polanco, and then only if some team offers a really choice pitcher (or two). NH's approach has to been to work on pitching and defense. I would expect him to double down on that, tighten the defense and if any trade is made, that it be for a (or more) young, controllable pitcher.
The defense weaknesses are Cutch in center, Bell at first (or almost anywhere at this point), and Polanco in right. Polanco's problems seem to be intensity related at this point, but he could be on the verge of being really special. On the whole, I doubt he gets traded but he would be likely to bring back quality young pitching if he were.
The defense weaknesses are Cutch in center, Bell at first (or almost anywhere at this point), and Polanco in right. Polanco's problems seem to be intensity related at this point, but he could be on the verge of being really special. On the whole, I doubt he gets traded but he would be likely to bring back quality young pitching if he were.
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rucker59@gmail.com
2017 Outlook
190420222C490 wrote:
First of all, I don't see them trading Harrison or Mercer. Both are signed at a very reasonable rate. Harrison had a bit of a down year, but he is a very productive player normally for what he is paid. Though he plays stupid sometimes, he is the best attitude on the team. If a certain three OFers played with his intensity, they'd place 1, 2, and 3 in the MVP race. :)
........
I really think the most likely trade is one of the OFers. It would be a blockbuster for this franchise. I don't think NH will give one away, but now is the time to trade one and not lose out on much. I don't like trading Polanco because I think he could be the next MVP out of them. I would be OK trading Marte or McCutchen for a young starting pitcher. They could easily hide Bell in the OF.
I don't think there is any such thing as a World Series team. You make the playoffs, then it's a crap shoot.
It makes no sense to trade Cole at this point. He is at a fairly low value and carries better upside than anyone you'll trade for. He was what, 4th in the Cy Young voting last year? Let this guy bounce back. He's your ace if he is healthy. Certainly trading him for a #3 and prospects is not a kings ransom.
There is no way they trade both McCutchen and Marte. You go from a very good defensive team to a terrible defensive team with Bell and Rodriguez replacing them for the long term. Rodriguez is not a CFer. That would be a disaster. Though I suppose the CF defense has been a bit of a disaster the last two years. I'm not sure why they need a "Will Myers clone" for 1B when they have Josh Bell.
I do like the idea of resigning Rodriguez. I have doubts though. He had a really big year and this year is more in line with his career lines and potential than last year. I'll bet he gets a big raise and they don't resign him. Unless they save a lot of money from trading McCutchen.
In a perfect world I don't do all these deals, but we live in Pirate world where an entirely different set of economics are applied. (How else to explain the Indians having $10+M more in payroll even though the Pirates have drawn ~3M more fans over the past three years?). I simply now realize the Pirates won't or can't follow a more traditional model. So with that reality:
The 2016 team was broken. For me it's simple - we bring back a 78 win team with huge problems especially in the rotation or we try to fill in areas of need. If the later is chosen, then Trades are the only option for the Pirates to truly upgrade. Personally I think it makes no sense to believe next year will be any different then this year if the rotation is not materially upgraded.
Why Wil Myers (as an exp)? Well because he's a legit first base with a big bat. I see nothing but upside.
Why trade Marte (this is the one I absolutely hate to do and only do it because of the value he'd bring) - because he's the only guy with the potential to bring back a truly high-end arm. I deem a dominate rotation to be of more importance.
Why Cutch - because he's the worse CF in baseball, who's tweeting that he has no intention of changing positions. His bat may or may not come back to all star production. He still has value. And, unfortunately, it frees up $14m that can sign a guy like Nova.
Is an OF of Sean, Bell, Polanco good enough? It's hardly idea. But if Marte can bring in a front end guy and Cutch allows us to sing Nova I think the team is better. Maybe Joyce is better option than SR, maybe there is another FA that makes more sense, but the Pirates can sign a FA outfielder, they can't sign a pitcher.
Why Cole? Because he's too often injuried, he's not lived up to hopes, he's one year away from being very expensive (for the Pirates) and because none of that will matter in the current mkt for starting pitching. If the Pirates could resign him, afford him for 3 or 4 years, then great. I'd feel differently. But that's not happening. Instead 2018 will be filled with talk of trading him mid-season. Spend the winter finding the best way to parlay Cole into longer term value.
We don't even know if he's going to be healthy, much less preform. If we roll with him and miss the season is toast.
None of this is what I want, but we're not getting what we want. Unless you think the rotation is good enough, something has to give. And just to state the obvious: this is all predicated on Neal indeed being able to make blockbuster type deals for the Pirates, otherwise we hold on.
First of all, I don't see them trading Harrison or Mercer. Both are signed at a very reasonable rate. Harrison had a bit of a down year, but he is a very productive player normally for what he is paid. Though he plays stupid sometimes, he is the best attitude on the team. If a certain three OFers played with his intensity, they'd place 1, 2, and 3 in the MVP race. :)
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I really think the most likely trade is one of the OFers. It would be a blockbuster for this franchise. I don't think NH will give one away, but now is the time to trade one and not lose out on much. I don't like trading Polanco because I think he could be the next MVP out of them. I would be OK trading Marte or McCutchen for a young starting pitcher. They could easily hide Bell in the OF.
I don't think there is any such thing as a World Series team. You make the playoffs, then it's a crap shoot.
It makes no sense to trade Cole at this point. He is at a fairly low value and carries better upside than anyone you'll trade for. He was what, 4th in the Cy Young voting last year? Let this guy bounce back. He's your ace if he is healthy. Certainly trading him for a #3 and prospects is not a kings ransom.
There is no way they trade both McCutchen and Marte. You go from a very good defensive team to a terrible defensive team with Bell and Rodriguez replacing them for the long term. Rodriguez is not a CFer. That would be a disaster. Though I suppose the CF defense has been a bit of a disaster the last two years. I'm not sure why they need a "Will Myers clone" for 1B when they have Josh Bell.
I do like the idea of resigning Rodriguez. I have doubts though. He had a really big year and this year is more in line with his career lines and potential than last year. I'll bet he gets a big raise and they don't resign him. Unless they save a lot of money from trading McCutchen.
In a perfect world I don't do all these deals, but we live in Pirate world where an entirely different set of economics are applied. (How else to explain the Indians having $10+M more in payroll even though the Pirates have drawn ~3M more fans over the past three years?). I simply now realize the Pirates won't or can't follow a more traditional model. So with that reality:
The 2016 team was broken. For me it's simple - we bring back a 78 win team with huge problems especially in the rotation or we try to fill in areas of need. If the later is chosen, then Trades are the only option for the Pirates to truly upgrade. Personally I think it makes no sense to believe next year will be any different then this year if the rotation is not materially upgraded.
Why Wil Myers (as an exp)? Well because he's a legit first base with a big bat. I see nothing but upside.
Why trade Marte (this is the one I absolutely hate to do and only do it because of the value he'd bring) - because he's the only guy with the potential to bring back a truly high-end arm. I deem a dominate rotation to be of more importance.
Why Cutch - because he's the worse CF in baseball, who's tweeting that he has no intention of changing positions. His bat may or may not come back to all star production. He still has value. And, unfortunately, it frees up $14m that can sign a guy like Nova.
Is an OF of Sean, Bell, Polanco good enough? It's hardly idea. But if Marte can bring in a front end guy and Cutch allows us to sing Nova I think the team is better. Maybe Joyce is better option than SR, maybe there is another FA that makes more sense, but the Pirates can sign a FA outfielder, they can't sign a pitcher.
Why Cole? Because he's too often injuried, he's not lived up to hopes, he's one year away from being very expensive (for the Pirates) and because none of that will matter in the current mkt for starting pitching. If the Pirates could resign him, afford him for 3 or 4 years, then great. I'd feel differently. But that's not happening. Instead 2018 will be filled with talk of trading him mid-season. Spend the winter finding the best way to parlay Cole into longer term value.
We don't even know if he's going to be healthy, much less preform. If we roll with him and miss the season is toast.
None of this is what I want, but we're not getting what we want. Unless you think the rotation is good enough, something has to give. And just to state the obvious: this is all predicated on Neal indeed being able to make blockbuster type deals for the Pirates, otherwise we hold on.