OnlyBucs

"someone please tell me I'm wrong" Ia



No one has because you're not wrong. But there is one bit of hope: Nutting is soon to experience lost equity. The value of this franchise will begin to drop, maybe significantly. He might like owning a MLB team, I suspect he likes the Billion Dollar Club better.



Once he sees that continued increases in value will take a significant commitment I think he'll sale rather than make the commitment or let the value decrease beyond a fixed floor.



As far as being a pirate fan - I've never had any luck switching teams. Being a fan does something internally, it becomes part of us. I can't stop being a Pirate fan. And more importantly I'm not going to allow someone like Nutting run me off.



You'd think Nutting would be interested in the fans. He's just running them off. Myself for instance - I spend A LOT on season tickets, plus every year I buy additional tickets to multiple games taking friends out. Every year I do a couple group outings (I've got a 115 tickets to a game coming up). All though my ticket rep (so they know what I spend). I do it not because I'm loaded (I'm not) but because the Pirates and baseball is my family's "spurge". It's meant to be 6 months of fun. Nutting doesn't give a hoot about me or any other fan.



Next year I'll be following the Pirates as much as ever, but I'll definitely be at less games. I'd guess my financial commitment will drop well over 50%. Why does that not matter to him?



I'll still be a huge fan, I will simply give less of my money to the owner. I'll wait him out. He won't allow his investment to reverse.

The biggest change I would make on the Pirates thinking is understanding "windows of opportunity".



I was not a fan of this as it has been mentioned many times, especially with Andrew McCutchen. It was always mentioned here, other fans, and the local media. I was with Huntington as he has said he always wants to be competitive. Yeah, many teams do. I just think the Pirates are getting to the point that they need to win a World Series to get that monkey off their back.



If they won a World Series, would you care what they did the next five or ten years after (See: Philadelphia)? I sure wouldn't.



My tune has changed to the "window of opportunity" philosophy. Spend some money in keeping guys around, maybe trade that big prospect, get a free agent. Try to go all in for a three-four year period. It is a huge risk as if it doesn't work (I still think any playoff team can win it all), but they need that one WS very soon.



People like to compare the Pirates and Penguins for some reason, so don't forget that it took Mario & Company 10 years to win the Stanley Cup and they drafted the two top players, hall of famers back to back drafts. Nutting is in his 11th year as owner. I do think it is a lot harder to win a World Series compared to a Stanley Cup. Nutting still has time. If you were willing to give Mario 10 years, why aren't you willing to give Nutting a few extra years knowing the difficulty in comparison of the two leagues?



Again, need to concentrate on that window of opportunity. That is the change of philosophy I would make.

7E757D7174756E2B2D5A637B7275753479751A0 wrote: The biggest change I would make on the Pirates thinking is understanding "windows of opportunity".



I was not a fan of this as it has been mentioned many times, especially with Andrew McCutchen.  It was always mentioned here, other fans, and the local media.  I was with Huntington as he has said he always wants to be competitive.  Yeah, many teams do.  I just think the Pirates are getting to the point that they need to win a World Series to get that monkey off their back.



If they won a World Series, would you care what they did the next five or ten years after (See: Philadelphia)?  I sure wouldn't. 



My tune has changed to the "window of opportunity" philosophy.  Spend some money in keeping guys around, maybe trade that big prospect, get a free agent.  Try to go all in for a three-four year period.  It is a huge risk as if it doesn't work (I still think any playoff team can win it all), but they need that one WS very soon.



People like to compare the Pirates and Penguins for some reason, so don't forget that it took Mario & Company 10 years to win the Stanley Cup and they drafted the two top players, hall of famers back to back drafts.  Nutting is in his 11th year as owner.  I do think it is a lot harder to win a World Series compared to a Stanley Cup.  Nutting still has time.  If you were willing to give Mario 10 years, why aren't you willing to give Nutting a few extra years knowing the difficulty in comparison of the two leagues?



Again, need to concentrate on that window of opportunity.  That is the change of philosophy I would make. 


Much of what you wrote, I agree with. Maybe I'd do it differently, but the idea of going all in when the time is right is critical.



But you can't compare the Pirates ownership to the Pens. It's not the 11 years, it's that after seeming to be moving in a legitimately positive direction, it's like Nutting slammed on the brakes. In hindsight, aren't you surprised over the teams direction the last two years?

People like to compare the Pirates to the Penguins. I hate the comparison. No baseball team should be compared to a hockey team. There was just a big article in the paper and then people brought up the Pirates asking why they aren't ran the same way. That Penguin article was posted here, on a Pirates message board.



It wasn't until Mario drafted Crosby and Malkin that got them out of the basement. He took over a first place team that was then moved to 3rd place and then four years in a row at the bottom of their division. Along comes Crosby and they are competitive again. They won the Cup in year ten of his ownership.



Also funny how Mario's money man is a quiet owner and yet people call out Nutting for the same thing. Ron Burkle could probably deliver many a pizza and no one would recognize him. Do you think Bob Nutting can do the same?



Nutting made the playoffs in years seven, eight, and nine of his ownership. Something that hasn't been done in twenty years. They just didn't win it all, but they were very close. They ran into two of the greatest pitching seasons of all time.



To answer your question, I don't think they are headed in the wrong direction. I feel they are headed in the right direction like in 2011 and 2012. They need to get back to that window of opportunity. That is my whole point. They need to stop being great every season as the resources are not there. But they can make a little run for a few seasons. They did make moves to improve the team in 2011-2015. To say the Owner doesn't care, I don't buy that. Why make any moves at all if that was the case?



The Pirates need to win a WS. No doubt. I understand the "dislike" of the ownership, but I don't agree with it at all. Especially, when compared to the Penguins. They need to focus on their windows of opportunity in my opinion. They did this to some degree in 2013-2015, but they could have done it more/better.

7D7A6C646A7D3A364F68626E6663216C60620F0 wrote: "someone please tell me I'm wrong" Ia



No one has because you're not wrong. But there is one bit of hope: Nutting is soon to experience lost equity. The value of this franchise will begin to drop, maybe significantly.  He might like owning a MLB team, I suspect he likes the Billion Dollar Club better.



Once he sees that continued increases in value will take a significant commitment I think he'll sale rather than make the commitment or let the value decrease beyond a fixed floor.



As far as being a pirate fan - I've never had any luck switching teams. Being a fan does something internally, it becomes part of us. I can't stop being a Pirate fan. And more importantly I'm not going to allow someone like Nutting run me off.



You'd think Nutting would be interested in the fans. He's just running them off. Myself for instance - I spend A LOT on season tickets, plus every year I buy additional tickets to multiple games taking friends out.  Every year I do a couple group outings (I've got a 115 tickets to a game coming up). All though my ticket rep (so they know what I spend).  I do it not because I'm loaded (I'm not) but because the Pirates and baseball is my family's "spurge".  It's meant to be 6 months of fun. Nutting doesn't give a hoot about me or any other fan.



Next year I'll be following the Pirates as much as ever, but I'll definitely be at less games.  I'd guess my financial commitment will drop well over 50%.  Why does that not matter to him?



I'll still be a huge fan, I will simply give less of my money to the owner.  I'll wait him out. He won't allow his investment to reverse.
I feel much like you. I will still be around and rooting for this team(fandom just gets in your blood) but I'm not going to be plunking down money to go watch anymore. I will live and die with every game as much as I want to move on I just can't seem to do it. We shall see what the next couple of days leading up to the deadline bring. I am getting the feeling that we are going to see my familiar faces leaving.

I also remember that article. The timing of it is pretty funny now. It was published on the off day after opening day in 2013.



Jay Lustig got out when the franchise was worth around $336 million. After 2013, the franchise was worth $479 million. Went up to $900 million in 2015. Now worth $1.25 billion.



I wonder if Lustig would be complaining now? The Pirates went on to be contenders after he left too. There should be a piece/article on what he thinks today.



I also wonder how many other minority owners stuck around. I think another left with Lustig, but not positive.

3C373F3336372C696F182139303737763B37580 wrote: I also remember that article.  The timing of it is pretty funny now.  It was published on the off day after opening day in 2013.



Jay Lustig got out when the franchise was worth around $336 million.  After 2013, the franchise was worth $479 million.  Went up to $900 million in 2015.  Now worth $1.25 billion.



I wonder if Lustig would be complaining now? The Pirates went on to be contenders after he left too.  There should be a piece/article on what he thinks today. 



I also wonder how many other minority owners stuck around.  I think another left with Lustig, but not positive.


I bet he would be complaining about zero World Series wins (ore even appearances).

Maybe, who knows? Wasn't Lustig part of the problem for almost 20 years? He was a minority owner for almost two decades. I assume Lustig was in the Pittsburgh Associates group who owned the Pirates before Kevin McClatchy.



A World Series will change Nutting's name for sure. I just feel he is being blamed for the 20 years of losing even though he wasn't around. He changed the Pirates around financially, started to compete, and made the playoffs in a short period of time. Of course he needs to grow on that. I am not giving him an excuse or a pass, but I am not as angry as others. If this drags on for another ten years, you certainly will hear me. I didn't peep when Mario was building the Penguins, so I wouldn't peep now with pretty much the same time frame.



Could you imagine if McClatchy never sold?

3E353D3134352E6B6D1A233B3235357439355A0 wrote:



People like to compare the Pirates and Penguins for some reason, so don't forget that it took Mario & Company 10 years to win the Stanley Cup and they drafted the two top players, hall of famers back to back drafts.  Nutting is in his 11th year as owner.  I do think it is a lot harder to win a World Series compared to a Stanley Cup.  Nutting still has time.  If you were willing to give Mario 10 years, why aren't you willing to give Nutting a few extra years knowing the difficulty in comparison of the two leagues?

 


Oooh I've got this one.   please allow me :



1)  Mario is a champion athlete who overcame much adversity (including returning from hodkins lymphoma) and became the 2nd best player ever to play his sport.



1a) Bob Nutting inherited an immense media empire by birthright



2) As owner, Mario has hired general managers who have one singular goal in mind, a championship franchise.    



2a) As chairman of the principle ownership group of the Pirates as early as 2003, Nutting was deeply involved in the team (though not always visibly so) for the past 15 years.  McClatchy was answering to him for years.  Nutting had the final say, it's no secret and the publicly stated reason McClatchy was kept on as CEO  in Jan 2007 officially answering to Nutting was to "clarify" who really had been calling all the shots.  This is all independently verifiable through articles and quotes from both Nutting and McClatchy.  Nutting is a loser.  He has been for almost a generation now



3)  As owner, Mario's GMs operate with one philosophy:  The penguins go for it.  Almost every year they have one sole purpose, win the cup.   They buy when others shy away, they make trades to substantially improve their team EVERY YEAR AND they draft well/ turn out good young talent through their minor leagues.   The have all the bases covered.  Trades, Drafting, Free Agency.  All 3 supplement the teams goal of a cup every year.



3a) Nutting left Dave littlefield on as GM for the entirety of the 2007 season.   He sucked terribly.  NH was hired (who you love, I understand) and set the franchise back years with his initial trade whiffs.   Even today, NH's goal isn't a world series every year, it's to be "competitive".  Just a weasel word.  .500 is competitive in some eyes. 



 Which as you're starting to figure out "competitive" is basically just nonsense when you don't have steady resources to make that happen.   There are no other small market teams in the game that are competitive every year.  almost all of them have won a pennant or a WS, however.  Some multiple times



In summary, Mario is a super-competitive athlete who's entire life has been based on WINNING, on being better than the competition.  Who wasn't handed his success due to being born to the right father  Any athlete like that understands what it means to give it all and fail, but give it all nonetheless. 



In summary, Nutting did nothing to earn his place in life.   He invented nothing, he inherited daddy's media empire and the family interest in the local baseball team.  He took inherited wealth and bought a ski resort. how courageous.  Nutting has no idea what it means to GO FOR IT, because his bloodline guarantees he will never really fail. When you are handed everything, you'll never be anything but conservative. There's never a reason to risk, there's only preservation of your status.



 By a large number of accounts, the Nutting enterprises are known for running tight payrolls, but it sure is nice of him to donate a fraction of 1% of this billion dollar wealth to charities that he deems suitable for good PR.  (the robber barons have been doing this since the industrial revolution) 



Nutting is a proven loser. Mario is a proven winner.  Other than that, they have a lot in common.



How did I do?

4249414D4849521711665F474E4949084549260 wrote: Maybe, who knows?  Wasn't Lustig part of the problem for almost 20 years?  He was a minority owner for almost two decades.  I assume Lustig was in the Pittsburgh Associates group who owned the Pirates before Kevin McClatchy.



A World Series will change Nutting's name for sure.  I just feel he is being blamed for the 20 years of losing even though he wasn't around.  He changed the Pirates around financially, started to compete, and made the playoffs in a short period of time.  Of course he needs to grow on that.  I am not giving him an excuse or a pass, but I am not as angry as others.  If this drags on for another ten years, you certainly will hear me.  I didn't peep when Mario was building the Penguins, so I wouldn't peep now with pretty much the same time frame.



Could you imagine if McClatchy never sold?


But dog, following 2014 and again after 2015, you repeatedly said something to the effect of, "We don't know what the Pirates will do, as they've never been in this situation before."  I thought that was fair.  It seemed to me when you said that, your expectation was that the team would follow through and "spend when the time was right."  They not only have failed to uphold that commitment, they also have demonstrated that they will opt for the cheap route, both when they are competitive and when they are uncompetitive.



I feel like I've given them the benefit of the doubt for far too long and they've stomped all over my loyalty.  They went into last year with 3/5 of a starting rotation, generously.  They played half of this year with two outfielders.  They've played all year with a guy who by his own admission is a backup as their starter at third base.  They've made a few signings, but it was guys who genuinely wanted to be here (Liriano, Burnett, Nova), not overpayments not for any of them, but they've never even tried to make a splash for an established player (the David Price rumors a couple years ago aside).



In short, I've had it with this team.  I'm seriously considering not renewing my MLB.tv subscription next year.  This is the first year in a long time, probably since 2010, I won't see at least one game live.  Even when I was in the area and could have gone to a game, I said, "Forget it."  If I, a loyal fan am doing this, what are casual fans thinking?



I'm sad because baseball is my first love.  I enjoy football, hockey, and college basketball (can't stand the NBA), but I only casually follow those sports.  I live on each pitch of the Pirates season.  I follow their off-season.  I follow trades.  I follow the draft.  I follow the minors. I couldn't possibly care less that Steelers camp has opened.  Bob Nutting has robbed me and thousands of others of this enjoyment due to his refusal, for whatever reason, to field a competitive team.  If one accidentally happens to show up as it did in 2013-15, great.  But I just don't see this team going out and being proactive.  I'll keep watching, but that hat with four or five teams in it is looking more and more appealing by the day.