OnlyBucs

5A58424452370 wrote: For an effective rebuild, they have to be really bad for a few years. You have to draft in the top five to have any shot at top talent. The Pirates problem the last few years is they are drafting between twenty and thirty. Even last year and this coming one they will be around eleventh.
Cody Bellinger is probably the only player drafted into MLB in the last 4 years who has made a difference already. The failure of the current Pirates at the MLB level is not due to drafting. It's due to the development of what was already in their system, the refusal to sign productive players and the incompetence of their manager.

7B565B4A4D5C4B0B08390 wrote: I too am waving the white flag. Just continue to play the season for pride. Don't quit on Hurdle or the fans. I do expect there will be some changes over the offseason, and some may include players who might have been part of the core. I think there will be at least two significant players who will be traded, and they will bring a return that will make the team more competitive in 2018.


If they trade core players for prospects, they won't be more competitive in 2018. If they could acquire impact players for 2018, would Nutting be willing to pay them or would any return on trades have to consist of minimal salaried players? And whoever is on the 2018 roster, will they again be misguided by Hurdle who seems to put no emphasis on winning and maximum emphasis on making sure his players are well rested when they watch the playoff s on TV?




Not sure we are going to be that competitive in 2018 regardless. You know the MO of this organization.

535651575F554C51584B4D40390 wrote: I'd like to see the moved Cole and keep Cutch.




Cole is nothing more than a average pitcher to me. He isn't a one or two in a good rotation. He hasn't displayed any consistency. I too would like to see Cole moved, but you aren't going to get a hefty return due to his inconsistencies. Why keep Cutch? He isn't resigning here. I'm sure he is frustrated to be here now. You can tell by his reaction at the trade deadline and the lack of good moves. They really need to move him to get a good return. Otherwise, you aren't going to get a thing when he bolts.

Some of the moves being made (or not made) really do make you question ownership's intent. It is almost like they don't care about winning (championships).



In 2011, Forbes calculated the Pirates estimated value at $304 million, which was last in MLB. In 2017, Forbes eatimated the Pirates value at $ 1.25 billion, good for 17th in the MLB. It took the Bucs over 130 years to get to a $300 million valuation, but they increased an astounding $1 billion in just 6 years. Now, this doesn't mean the financial statements reflect this level of worth, but it does predict what a motivated buyer might be willing to pay for the team.



Try finding another investment that would yield that level of return. Maybe that is why Nutting wants ownership of this team.



We need a passion owner, someone who is willing to throw money at the team like one of us might throw at a motorboat. I would love to hear him explain how ownership couldn't handle a $20 million pay increase for a run at a title.



Management failed to improve the team leading into 2016 and again in 2017. The moment of truth is approaching. They either invest in improvement for 2018 or they lose all credibility with me that they are actually in It to win. Perhaps it is just a long term investment for an owner who lacks any passion for the team he owns.

4F626F7E79687F3F3C0D0 wrote: I'm very curious as to the direction the org takes in 2018. Do they try to sell the fan base on the idea that the plan set forth by the self-proclaimed "Best Mgt Team in Baseball" was a failure and it's back to square 1 for rebuilding? From a PR standpoint, that will be a disaster. Is Hurdle replaced? Is NH replaced? That again tells the fan base that TBTIB was not so good after all, which makes Nutting and Coonelly look bad. And if they did replace one or both, Nutting's cheapness would continue to be the single most defeating aspect of the org which would show the fans that no matter who runs the team, little will change under Nutting. That's another PR disaster.



IMHO, Nutting has painted his org into a corner. Anything other than the semblance of a competitive team will suggest that the org has failed and lead to speculation that another rebuilding effort will be no more successful than the last. So I suspect we are going to see business as usual in 2018. They will assure the fans that the 2018 Pirates will be in the hunt and remind us that the 2017 Bucs were only 3 games out in August (while forgetting to mention that no more than a sub .500 record was required for that). Cutch will be kept. Cole could be traded for a near-ready top prospect and a useful, experienced position player (3B or OF). NH will be extended and dumpster diving for pitchers. Nova could be traded but not for much. SPs would be from among Taillon, Williams, Kuhl, Brault, Glasnow, Kingham and Cole if not dealt. Otherwise pretty much the same team. Diaz and Cervelli will share catching. Kang is a big question mark but they have to go on as if he won't play. There will be no appreciable increase in payroll.



Hurdle should be replaced. But for PR reasons, they could say he resigned (for whatever reason sounds good) and give him a job in the org. I'm sure they don't want to admit that he has failed as their mgr. But if he wants to go on managing elsewhere, they would have to just fire him. So that would look bad.



Of course it's also possible that Nutting's indifference this year is part of something bigger (a pending sale?). That would change everything. But if he continues to own them, they have to worry about alienating the fan base with the way they've done business these past 2 years and try to sell the fans (rightly or wrongly) on the idea that the team will be competitive. None of this is meant to suggest it's what I think they should do. But it's what I think they will do.   


If Hurdle isn't fired then this organization is doomed for years. If NH does't do it then he should be fired cause he has no idea what he's doing.

7F5E567F545C3B0 wrote: I'd like to see the moved Cole and keep Cutch.


I'm with you but will Cutch stay around if they are going into a rebuilding stage?  I doubt it.  He may want to go a contender even if it is part time or as DH down the road.  He would just want a better chance to make it to and win a WS.


Agreed, and if this FO really does go all-in on a rebuild then we need to move Cutch, but I have serious doubts about the willingness not to mention ability of this FO to actually build a contender.  I think they get too much credit for recovering from the Bonifay/Littlefield years.  It would be hard to do worse than Bonifay & Littlefield. These guys are average at what they do and the sooner Nutting realizes this the better off we are.

666364626A6079646D7E78750C0 wrote: I'd like to see the moved Cole and keep Cutch.


I'm with you but will Cutch stay around if they are going into a rebuilding stage?  I doubt it.  He may want to go a contender even if it is part time or as DH down the road.  He would just want a better chance to make it to and win a WS.


Agreed, and if this FO really does go all-in on a rebuild then we need to move Cutch, but I have serious doubts about the willingness not to mention ability of this FO to actually build a contender.  I think they get too much credit for recovering from the Bonifay/Littlefield years.  It would be hard to do worse than Bonifay & Littlefield.  These guys are average at what they do and the sooner Nutting realizes this the better off we are.








Nutting is well aware of what his front office is capable of.



He's 100% satisfied with the results. If he wasn't, he'd do something about it.

I just want to see an offseason that involves more than adding another veteran reclamation arm and another super utility.

4D6A61420F0 wrote: I just want to see an offseason that involves more than adding another veteran reclamation arm and another super utility.


I think you'll enjoy the upcoming offseason then.



NH already acquired Sean Rodriguez, which crosses utility player off the list.



Plus, NH thinks he has a great rotation and lots of rotation depth, so he might not even be going for the reclamation project starters.



In fact, the roster is so strong, NH might not have to make a single transaction this offseason.



That's how good he is.

It's hard for me to conclude that Huntington hasn't done a good job. Unfortunately, being the GM of the Pirates is one of the most difficult jobs in baseball.



The Pirates were one of the best teams in baseball from 2013-2015. Things went well as they must when you are spending significantly less money than most of your competitors. You have to get the performances you expect and pay for from your best players and you have to get good value from most others. The Pirates had good teams and got some good fortune.



2016 was different. McCutchen and Liriano went from something like 8 WAR to below replacement players. A team funded like the Pirates can't withstand that. In 2017, we had a PED suspension and a visa problem for, again, players who put up about 8 WAR the previous season. The team was built for possible success but the good fortune turned to bad fortune. I know some people want to talk about contingency plans and so forth. There is no contingency plan for your All-Stars sucking or your cheap high-level players not being able to play when you're spending a fraction of much of your competition. The primary reasons for the Pirates lack of success the past two years were unexpected and, therefore, I don't think it's fair to blame them on Huntington.



Do you really think Huntington wouldn't know what to do with a $40 million check from Bob Nutting? I think he probably would have a pretty good idea. But it isn't happening. So, people make complaints that Huntington only gets reclamation projects or forces young guys who might not be ready to make starts. He doesn't have a choice. The Pirates won't win a division without cheap players making big contributions. The dice has to be rolled.



Someone mentioned that Huntington isn't drafting well-enough to succeed with the Pirates. I don't think the draft is that fool-proof but maybe he hasn't been as successful as he needs to be. We do have a few players making important contributions to the team that he drafted, though. It doesn't feel like he's had poor success in that department versus most other teams.



As for 2018, it's business as usual because a re-build isn't necessary. The team isn't that bad and has reasonable hope to be much better. The Pirates have enough pieces to compete. Will the players be available and will they play to capabilities? Will the younger guys, especially the starting pitchers improve?I don't know. But Huntington has to find out. There's no other way.