OnlyBucs

There's that word "compete" again.  We were technically "competing" at the trade deadline this year.



No, the team as rostered obviously will not win the division next year.   There is a huge FA pool and many trades that could be made to take what we have and turn it into a good baseball team next year. I believe the talent is available to turn this team into a possible champion. I also believe that acquiring that talent, albeit a pipedream, would go a long way to improving the performance, attitude and mental wherewithall of the players currently rostered.



But it's not up to us.   Only ownership and the FO can take the steps necessary to turn this team into a champion



Their jobs, not ours.

I think they should keep the band together for one more try. The starting lineup hasn't changed much since 2016, but they're not old yet. Bell's better at first than what they had in 2015. If Kang can't play it's a serious hit, of course. The pitching is almost completely overturned, and you just have to hope the kids take a step forward as a group.



It's basically a "let's hope everyone has a good year" strategy, but I don't see anything in the minors that has me excited for 3-4 years down the line. If they come out like slugs again, they can go into full rebuild next July.

3C353D2C22580 wrote: There's that word "compete" again.  We were technically "competing" at the trade deadline this year.



No, the team as rostered obviously will not win the division next year.   There is a huge FA pool and many trades that could be made to take what we have and turn it into a good baseball team next year. I believe the talent is available to turn this team into a possible champion. I also believe that acquiring that talent, albeit a pipedream, would go a long way to improving the performance, attitude and mental wherewithall of the players currently rostered.   



But it's not up to us.   Only ownership and the FO can take the steps necessary to turn this team into a champion



Their jobs, not ours.


That sums it up. My current position would most closely relate to Neal as GM. I have a hand in everything and the last word on about anything I feel necessary. People in Neal's position aren't just in it for the money, they are goal driven and results oriented.



With that thought in mind, it is my great hope change is in store. I cannot believe Neal would sign on for four more years of the same crap we have seen the past two years. Lying for your ownership and placing duct tape and rubber bands on high-priced machinery can't be what he had in mind when he signed his new contract.

This team is incapable of competing in 2018 for anything significant. We know ownership and our GM won't make the necessary moves to do so. This means signing good free agents and making difficult decisions involving trading Cutch and maybe more.

6D7D7C4B5D5D513E0 wrote: This team is incapable of competing in 2018 for anything significant.  We know ownership and our GM won't make the necessary moves to do so.  This means signing good free agents and making difficult decisions involving trading Cutch and maybe more. 


Agreed.  The past month has been sobering IMHO.  The team is further away than I originally thought.  I use to try to but a WS team in my mind by thinking of the couple pieces needed to finish the team.



But I can't imagine a championship out of this team now.  It's too far out of wack.  Now I think of the current players as 1) part of building a championship team; 2) as necessary trade pieces to build a championship team; or 3) or having little value to either the Pirates or as a trade piece.



It's no longer easy to put a really serious contender together UNLESS serious money is opened up for FAs.  If Neal had the resources to run up payroll to include the likes of Bruce and Bumgarner, and resign Cutch THEN we could move Marte and Polanco for a 3rd base and another starter and rebuilt pen.



But that's predicated on something we know is not even under consideration - busting payroll up to the KC level.



If I could put together THE team I'd like to send out next year we'd sign Manny M for 3rd, Bumgarner for top of the order rotation.  I'd resign Cutch.  Trade Marte and Cole. (I think we can get nearly the production from younger guys and they represent the best trade pieces).



Frazier

Jhay

Cutch

Manchado

Bell

Polanco

Diaz

Jordy. 

(I'd like to add lefty power like Bruce but Manny would be the much better player in a greater position of need).



That would be a nice mix of power and speed, lefty righty.  Jhay being a 15 HR guy, 3-6 could all be 30 HR guys.



Use Marte and Cole to bring in a #2/3 rotation guy, a high end pen and a couple prospects.



Bumgarner

Tallion

New Guy

Williams

Kuhl et al....

(Glasnow in long relief for one year; Nova packaged in a trade). 



So, I have no doubt the Pirates CAN push toward a WS, I also have no doubt the above is a pipe dream.  Trying to build a WS team without those FAs simply doesn't work.  That means the Pirates finish last in NLC next year.

6265737B7562252950777D71797C3E737F7D100 wrote: This team is incapable of competing in 2018 for anything significant.  We know ownership and our GM won't make the necessary moves to do so.  This means signing good free agents and making difficult decisions involving trading Cutch and maybe more. 


Agreed.  The past month has been sobering IMHO.  The team is further away than I originally thought.  I use to try to but a WS team in my mind by thinking of the couple pieces needed to finish the team.



But I can't imagine a championship out of this team now.  It's too far out of wack.  Now I think of the current players as 1) part of building a championship team; 2) as necessary trade pieces to build a championship team; or 3) or having little value to either the Pirates or as a trade piece.



It's no longer easy to put a really serious contender together UNLESS serious money is opened up for FAs.  If Neal had the resources to run up payroll to include the likes of Bruce and Bumgarner, and resign Cutch THEN we could move Marte and Polanco for a 3rd base and another starter and rebuilt pen.



But that's predicated on something we know is not even under consideration - busting payroll up to the KC level.



If I could put together THE team I'd like to send out next year we'd sign Manny M for 3rd, Bumgarner for top of the order rotation.  I'd resign Cutch.  Trade Marte and Cole. (I think we can get nearly the production from younger guys and they represent the best trade pieces).



Frazier

Jhay

Cutch

Manchado

Bell

Polanco

Diaz

Jordy. 

(I'd like to add lefty power like Bruce but Manny would be the much better player in a greater position of need).



That would be a nice mix of power and speed, lefty righty.  Jhay being a 15 HR guy, 3-6 could all be 30 HR guys.



Use Marte and Cole to bring in a #2/3 rotation guy, a high end pen and a couple prospects.



Bumgarner

Tallion

New Guy

Williams

Kuhl et al....

(Glasnow in long relief for one year; Nova packaged in a trade). 



So, I have no doubt the Pirates CAN push toward a WS, I also have no doubt the above is a pipe dream.  Trying to build a WS team without those FAs simply doesn't work.  That means the Pirates finish last in NLC next year.






Yeah, I would go for that. If you become GM and fire Clint, I would relocate.?

5C5B4D454B5C1B176E49434F4742004D41432E0 wrote: This team is incapable of competing in 2018 for anything significant.  We know ownership and our GM won't make the necessary moves to do so.  This means signing good free agents and making difficult decisions involving trading Cutch and maybe more. 


Agreed.  The past month has been sobering IMHO.  The team is further away than I originally thought.  I use to try to but a WS team in my mind by thinking of the couple pieces needed to finish the team.



But I can't imagine a championship out of this team now.  It's too far out of wack.  Now I think of the current players as 1) part of building a championship team; 2) as necessary trade pieces to build a championship team; or 3) or having little value to either the Pirates or as a trade piece.



It's no longer easy to put a really serious contender together UNLESS serious money is opened up for FAs.  If Neal had the resources to run up payroll to include the likes of Bruce and Bumgarner, and resign Cutch THEN we could move Marte and Polanco for a 3rd base and another starter and rebuilt pen.



But that's predicated on something we know is not even under consideration - busting payroll up to the KC level.



If I could put together THE team I'd like to send out next year we'd sign Manny M for 3rd, Bumgarner for top of the order rotation.  I'd resign Cutch.  Trade Marte and Cole. (I think we can get nearly the production from younger guys and they represent the best trade pieces).



Frazier

Jhay

Cutch

Manchado

Bell

Polanco

Diaz

Jordy. 

(I'd like to add lefty power like Bruce but Manny would be the much better player in a greater position of need).



That would be a nice mix of power and speed, lefty righty.  Jhay being a 15 HR guy, 3-6 could all be 30 HR guys.



Use Marte and Cole to bring in a #2/3 rotation guy, a high end pen and a couple prospects.



Bumgarner

Tallion

New Guy

Williams

Kuhl et al....

(Glasnow in long relief for one year; Nova packaged in a trade). 



So, I have no doubt the Pirates CAN push toward a WS, I also have no doubt the above is a pipe dream.  Trying to build a WS team without those FAs simply doesn't work.  That means the Pirates finish last in NLC next year.








Not against trading Polanco or Marte, but I believe people are thinking we get a haul in return. We don't get a huge return that people think. Polanco has been a disappointment and let's face it ... Marte has flaws. Awesome arm from the OF and steals bases, but ...

3020211600000C630 wrote: This team is incapable of competing in 2018 for anything significant.  We know ownership and our GM won't make the necessary moves to do so.  This means signing good free agents and making difficult decisions involving trading Cutch and maybe more. 


Agreed.  The past month has been sobering IMHO.  The team is further away than I originally thought.  I use to try to but a WS team in my mind by thinking of the couple pieces needed to finish the team.



But I can't imagine a championship out of this team now.  It's too far out of wack.  Now I think of the current players as 1) part of building a championship team; 2) as necessary trade pieces to build a championship team; or 3) or having little value to either the Pirates or as a trade piece.



It's no longer easy to put a really serious contender together UNLESS serious money is opened up for FAs.  If Neal had the resources to run up payroll to include the likes of Bruce and Bumgarner, and resign Cutch THEN we could move Marte and Polanco for a 3rd base and another starter and rebuilt pen.



But that's predicated on something we know is not even under consideration - busting payroll up to the KC level.



If I could put together THE team I'd like to send out next year we'd sign Manny M for 3rd, Bumgarner for top of the order rotation.  I'd resign Cutch.  Trade Marte and Cole. (I think we can get nearly the production from younger guys and they represent the best trade pieces).



Frazier

Jhay

Cutch

Manchado

Bell

Polanco

Diaz

Jordy. 

(I'd like to add lefty power like Bruce but Manny would be the much better player in a greater position of need).



That would be a nice mix of power and speed, lefty righty.  Jhay being a 15 HR guy, 3-6 could all be 30 HR guys.



Use Marte and Cole to bring in a #2/3 rotation guy, a high end pen and a couple prospects.



Bumgarner

Tallion

New Guy

Williams

Kuhl et al....

(Glasnow in long relief for one year; Nova packaged in a trade). 



So, I have no doubt the Pirates CAN push toward a WS, I also have no doubt the above is a pipe dream.  Trying to build a WS team without those FAs simply doesn't work.  That means the Pirates finish last in NLC next year.








Not against trading Polanco or Marte, but I believe people are thinking we get a haul in return.  We don't get a huge return that people think.  Polanco has been a disappointment and let's face it ... Marte has flaws.  Awesome arm from the OF and steals bases, but ...


I don't disagree, but there is very little value on this team. Maybe Marte, Cole, Bell and Tallion have any significant value. So, using what we got.

Put me in the "no" camp. The Pirates are headed to mid/low seventies in wins. The wild card next year should be in the high eighties/low nineties.



Even if everything breaks right (Polanco goes back to being five tool, Marte regains All Star status, Cole regains form. . .) I don't see them picking up fifteen games.



And "everthing" never goes right.

Until Nutting & Co. show they even have an interest in competing, I don't see how we can assume there's a way that can happen next year. Nothing that happened this year suggests they are even remotely interested.