OnlyBucs

495E5149584C55584D55390 wrote: Interesting thread and I've been thinking with the rumors of trade Cole, Harrison, Cutch, etc. what this team and payroll will look like in 2018.



If those trades are made for prospects or ML ready players, the payroll likely won't hit $80M. With the influx of an extra one year bonus of $50M, wouldn't this be a good time to secure some FA's and give the fans a decent team to cheer for?



I know it's early and nothing much but rumors abound, but I'm not confident this owner is going to spend anything to give us fans some hope. :'(


I think it's Harrison's inclusion in the Cole talks that caused me to see a different angle. I originally thought the best option was to trade anyone and anything that COULD bring some value within the next couple years. Then I read about and listen to Williams: if we move Josh it's primarily to dump salary. We'll get a nice piece I'm sure that MAY contribute in the next few years. But the best use of Josh's contract is on Josh. He would be the perfect "team Captain" to start building around. It seems to me....

1215030B0512555920070D01090C4E030F0D600 wrote: Interesting thread and I've been thinking with the rumors of trade Cole, Harrison, Cutch, etc. what this team and payroll will look like in 2018.



If those trades are made for prospects or ML ready players, the payroll likely won't hit $80M. With the influx of an extra one year bonus of $50M, wouldn't this be a good time to secure some FA's and give the fans a decent team to cheer for?



I know it's early and nothing much but rumors abound, but I'm not confident this owner is going to spend anything to give us fans some hope. :'(


I think it's Harrison's inclusion in the Cole talks that caused me to see a different angle.  I originally thought the best option was to trade anyone and anything that COULD bring some value within the next couple years. Then I read about and listen to Williams: if we move Josh it's primarily to dump salary. We'll get a nice piece I'm sure that MAY contribute in the next few years.  But the best use of Josh's contract is on Josh. He would be the perfect "team  Captain" to start building around. It seems to me....




If the Pirates think they have a replacement in Adam Frazier, wouldn't it be wise and a baseball move to trade him for value to fill in other areas?



Not every trade is a "salary dump". Players get replaced by cheaper, younger players all the time. That's the circle of baseball life.

4249414D4849521711665F474E4949084549260 wrote: The Reds have four players who make more than the average MLB salary with two more hitting arbitration that could go over the MLB average salary.  Only a few of those contracts are going forward too.  The Reds are also one of the youngest teams in all of baseball with a good farm system.



Keeping Votto doesn't hurt them as they aren't really paying anyone else.  Votto is great.  Who knows if he will keep it up as he is now out of his prime years?  I do wonder if they could trade him or have tried.  If traded, the trend is that the Reds would have to take on some of his salary. 



Williams took over the Reds at a good time.  He should be able to build on that young talent


You're making my point, and Bobster's: the Pirates would use the Red's current roster and payroll as justification that Votto's contract cant be maintained - it's too big relative to the entire payroll. So is Bailey's. Both blow up the Pirate model.



But you came in with a very logical statement it seems to me: overall payroll is so low they can afford Votto and Bailey and the Reds seem to be actually working a plan for, if not 2018, will be legit very soon.

6E656D6164657E3B3D4A736B6265652469650A0 wrote: Interesting thread and I've been thinking with the rumors of trade Cole, Harrison, Cutch, etc. what this team and payroll will look like in 2018.



If those trades are made for prospects or ML ready players, the payroll likely won't hit $80M. With the influx of an extra one year bonus of $50M, wouldn't this be a good time to secure some FA's and give the fans a decent team to cheer for?



I know it's early and nothing much but rumors abound, but I'm not confident this owner is going to spend anything to give us fans some hope. :'(


I think it's Harrison's inclusion in the Cole talks that caused me to see a different angle.  I originally thought the best option was to trade anyone and anything that COULD bring some value within the next couple years. Then I read about and listen to Williams: if we move Josh it's primarily to dump salary. We'll get a nice piece I'm sure that MAY contribute in the next few years.  But the best use of Josh's contract is on Josh. He would be the perfect "team  Captain" to start building around. It seems to me....




If the Pirates think they have a replacement in Adam Frazier, wouldn't it be wise and a baseball move to trade him for value to fill in other areas? 



Not every trade is a "salary dump".  Players get replaced by cheaper, younger players all the time.  That's the circle of baseball life.




Makes sense. And what I've been thinking the Pirates should do. But if the Pirates have to fill a hole by trading Josh (3rd base) what's the best move the Pirates could make? How about signing Josh Harrison for $10M (it's already a done deal in fact).



If the Pirates were going to take Harrison's cash and add $XM to it to sign Manny then I'd say absolutely. But that's not happening.



I think this could be one of those moves Bob Nutting was talking about in the Trib article: maximize our oppprtunities to do nothing. Something like that!

4C4B5D555B4C0B077E59535F5752105D51533E0 wrote: The Reds have four players who make more than the average MLB salary with two more hitting arbitration that could go over the MLB average salary.  Only a few of those contracts are going forward too.  The Reds are also one of the youngest teams in all of baseball with a good farm system.



Keeping Votto doesn't hurt them as they aren't really paying anyone else.  Votto is great.  Who knows if he will keep it up as he is now out of his prime years?  I do wonder if they could trade him or have tried.  If traded, the trend is that the Reds would have to take on some of his salary. 



Williams took over the Reds at a good time.  He should be able to build on that young talent


You're making my point, and Bobster's: the Pirates would use the Red's current roster and payroll as justification that Votto's contract cant be maintained - it's too big relative to the entire payroll. So is Bailey's.  Both blow up the Pirate model.



But you came in with a very logical statement it seems to me: overall payroll is so low they can afford Votto and Bailey and the Reds seem to be actually working a plan for, if not 2018, will be legit very soon.








Yes, they aren't paying anyone else. They aren't at the point yet to make that decision. It is rumored they are trying to dump Homer Bailey and his contract ($20 million). They did trade Brandon Phillips and Jay Bruce (before Willaims as GM) over the years. Wouldn't they have been a better team with those two?



The Pirates have seven guys making over the MLB average salary with probably two more hitting arbitration. I think you are trying to compare two different models.



The Reds could probably sign both Hosmer and Moustakis for the same price (maybe a little more) as one Votto. Wouldn't it be better getting those two players at that price? I think Williams has to say that as Votto isn't going anywhere. It is early so we will see how this will play out. The Reds are in rebuild mode and have been since 2013.

Keep in mind, the Reds don't have a choice. Votto has a full no-trade deal and has said he has no intention of waiving it. Williams statements could be legitimate, or they could be acknowledgment of the situation in a graceful way. Considering they are trying to trade Hamilton (presumably for salary reasons) one suspects face-saving.

474C44484D4C571214635A424B4C4C0D404C230 wrote: Interesting thread and I've been thinking with the rumors of trade Cole, Harrison, Cutch, etc. what this team and payroll will look like in 2018.



If those trades are made for prospects or ML ready players, the payroll likely won't hit $80M. With the influx of an extra one year bonus of $50M, wouldn't this be a good time to secure some FA's and give the fans a decent team to cheer for?



I know it's early and nothing much but rumors abound, but I'm not confident this owner is going to spend anything to give us fans some hope. :'(


I think it's Harrison's inclusion in the Cole talks that caused me to see a different angle.  I originally thought the best option was to trade anyone and anything that COULD bring some value within the next couple years. Then I read about and listen to Williams: if we move Josh it's primarily to dump salary. We'll get a nice piece I'm sure that MAY contribute in the next few years.  But the best use of Josh's contract is on Josh. He would be the perfect "team  Captain" to start building around. It seems to me....




If the Pirates think they have a replacement in Adam Frazier, wouldn't it be wise and a baseball move to trade him for value to fill in other areas? 



Not every trade is a "salary dump".  Players get replaced by cheaper, younger players all the time.  That's the circle of baseball life.


I agree, Dog. But only if they "trade him for value to fill in other areas." Not another Hudson or Jaso or Vogelsong. There needs to be a plan to strengthen other areas, not just bring in warm bodies. "The circle of baseball life" needs to be more than just replacing more expensive players with younger, cheaper ones. The circle of baseball life for contenders is to assemble a quality roster so that when it's time to deal an expensive player, you fill other holes and maintain a quality roster. When you don't do that it looks more like a salary dump.

444F474B4E4F541117605941484F4F0E434F200 wrote: Interesting thread and I've been thinking with the rumors of trade Cole, Harrison, Cutch, etc. what this team and payroll will look like in 2018.



If those trades are made for prospects or ML ready players, the payroll likely won't hit $80M. With the influx of an extra one year bonus of $50M, wouldn't this be a good time to secure some FA's and give the fans a decent team to cheer for?



I know it's early and nothing much but rumors abound, but I'm not confident this owner is going to spend anything to give us fans some hope. :'(


I think it's Harrison's inclusion in the Cole talks that caused me to see a different angle.  I originally thought the best option was to trade anyone and anything that COULD bring some value within the next couple years. Then I read about and listen to Williams: if we move Josh it's primarily to dump salary. We'll get a nice piece I'm sure that MAY contribute in the next few years.  But the best use of Josh's contract is on Josh. He would be the perfect "team  Captain" to start building around. It seems to me....




If the Pirates think they have a replacement in Adam Frazier, wouldn't it be wise and a baseball move to trade him for value to fill in other areas? 



Not every trade is a "salary dump".  Players get replaced by cheaper, younger players all the time.  That's the circle of baseball life.


Frazier isn't a replacement for Harrison. He can't do what Harrison does at the same level. He will never be good enough on defense. I can't see Frazier taking over 2nd base full time.

0E232E3F38293E7E7D4C0 wrote: Interesting thread and I've been thinking with the rumors of trade Cole, Harrison, Cutch, etc. what this team and payroll will look like in 2018.



If those trades are made for prospects or ML ready players, the payroll likely won't hit $80M. With the influx of an extra one year bonus of $50M, wouldn't this be a good time to secure some FA's and give the fans a decent team to cheer for?



I know it's early and nothing much but rumors abound, but I'm not confident this owner is going to spend anything to give us fans some hope. :'(


I think it's Harrison's inclusion in the Cole talks that caused me to see a different angle.  I originally thought the best option was to trade anyone and anything that COULD bring some value within the next couple years. Then I read about and listen to Williams: if we move Josh it's primarily to dump salary. We'll get a nice piece I'm sure that MAY contribute in the next few years.  But the best use of Josh's contract is on Josh. He would be the perfect "team  Captain" to start building around. It seems to me....




If the Pirates think they have a replacement in Adam Frazier, wouldn't it be wise and a baseball move to trade him for value to fill in other areas? 



Not every trade is a "salary dump".  Players get replaced by cheaper, younger players all the time.  That's the circle of baseball life.


I agree, Dog. But only if they "trade him for value to fill in other areas." Not another Hudson or Jaso or Vogelsong. There needs to be a plan to strengthen other areas, not just bring in warm bodies. "The circle of baseball life" needs to be more than just replacing more expensive players with younger, cheaper ones. The circle of baseball life for contenders is to assemble a quality roster so that when it's time to deal an expensive player, you fill other holes and maintain a quality roster. When you don't do that it looks more like a salary dump.




I agree, but that value could be for the future as well. Meaning, not for someone who is major league ready but will be in the future.



I am not saying that I think Frazier is as good as Harrison, but that doesn't mean the Pirates don't. I do think Frazier can hit just as well or maybe better, but his defense would be a huge downgrade.

5B50585451504B0E087F465E575050115C503F0 wrote: Interesting thread and I've been thinking with the rumors of trade Cole, Harrison, Cutch, etc. what this team and payroll will look like in 2018.



If those trades are made for prospects or ML ready players, the payroll likely won't hit $80M. With the influx of an extra one year bonus of $50M, wouldn't this be a good time to secure some FA's and give the fans a decent team to cheer for?



I know it's early and nothing much but rumors abound, but I'm not confident this owner is going to spend anything to give us fans some hope. :'(


I think it's Harrison's inclusion in the Cole talks that caused me to see a different angle.  I originally thought the best option was to trade anyone and anything that COULD bring some value within the next couple years. Then I read about and listen to Williams: if we move Josh it's primarily to dump salary. We'll get a nice piece I'm sure that MAY contribute in the next few years.  But the best use of Josh's contract is on Josh. He would be the perfect "team  Captain" to start building around. It seems to me....




If the Pirates think they have a replacement in Adam Frazier, wouldn't it be wise and a baseball move to trade him for value to fill in other areas? 



Not every trade is a "salary dump".  Players get replaced by cheaper, younger players all the time.  That's the circle of baseball life.


I agree, Dog. But only if they "trade him for value to fill in other areas." Not another Hudson or Jaso or Vogelsong. There needs to be a plan to strengthen other areas, not just bring in warm bodies. "The circle of baseball life" needs to be more than just replacing more expensive players with younger, cheaper ones. The circle of baseball life for contenders is to assemble a quality roster so that when it's time to deal an expensive player, you fill other holes and maintain a quality roster. When you don't do that it looks more like a salary dump.




I agree, but that value could be for the future as well.  Meaning, not for someone who is major league ready but will be in the future. 



I am not saying that I think Frazier is as good as Harrison, but that doesn't mean the Pirates don't.  I do think Frazier can hit just as well or maybe better, but his defense would be a huge downgrade.
I like Frazier a lot. But, as you say, his defense at 2B would be problematic. I thought he did fine in the OF last year and is serviceable as a reserve 2B-3B as long as he sn't overexposed there. I also agree that "value" can be for the future. But only if they plan to surround those prospects for the future with a solid team. Otherwise, such players have limited value. For example, let's say Meadows exceeds the hype and becomes their best player. But if they surround him with mediocre talent, he won't accomplish much beyond personal stats. Trading for prospects is smart but only if the plan is to make them key pieces on a competitive roster. Otherwise, they're just a bobble-head in waiting--someone to boost attendance without being able to make a difference on the team.