OnlyBucs

5354424A4453141861464C40484D0F424E4C210 wrote: And then what?



Are there stipulations on how they spend that money? I'm not sure it would be hard for the Pirates, if compelled, to provide an accounting of money spent on baseball operations. Such as operating their facility in the Dominican and building out their analytics office.



If the players association would show any capability of assessing a situation with multiple variables, they would understand that 4/30 teams spending double the median and over a third of the league spending 100M and less on payroll is bad for free agents.



Do a 180M cap with a 120M floor. Complaining about the teams that are rebuilding is farcical, because out the other side of their mouths their probably praising teams like the Astros, Cubs and Nationals that when rebuilding, were underspending their market by over $100M per year.


Fair enough, but the Pirates are not rebuilding.  So neal has already blown a hole in your argument. Pirates are in it to compete this year.  Maybe other than the Rays, competing teams don't have payroll under $100M.



Can't have it both ways (claim you're competing to quiet the fans; claim you're rebuilding to justify pocketing millions and millions and million of dollars).






Many teams make the playoffs with a payroll under $100 million. Arizona and the Brewers competed last year. Cleveland competed in 2016. The Pirates did from 2013-2015. Just to name a few...

3A3D2B232D3A7D71082F25292124662B2725480 wrote: And then what?



Are there stipulations on how they spend that money? I'm not sure it would be hard for the Pirates, if compelled, to provide an accounting of money spent on baseball operations. Such as operating their facility in the Dominican and building out their analytics office.



If the players association would show any capability of assessing a situation with multiple variables, they would understand that 4/30 teams spending double the median and over a third of the league spending 100M and less on payroll is bad for free agents.



Do a 180M cap with a 120M floor. Complaining about the teams that are rebuilding is farcical, because out the other side of their mouths their probably praising teams like the Astros, Cubs and Nationals that when rebuilding, were underspending their market by over $100M per year.


Fair enough, but the Pirates are not rebuilding.  So neal has already blown a hole in your argument. Pirates are in it to compete this year.  Maybe other than the Rays, competing teams don't have payroll under $100M.



Can't have it both ways (claim you're competing to quiet the fans; claim you're rebuilding to justify pocketing millions and millions and million of dollars).



In this case, the Pirates are on record to be competing.  They just passed on a tremendous opportunity to say something of real significance to the fans.  They could have broken the back of all the critics; they could have put a stop to the deteriorating relationship between this franchise and the fans (which is ultimately going to hurt the fans); they could have made the team legitimately better on paper and still had plently of money left over.  They choose, once again, to do nothing.



Actually, they did just say something to us: it starts by raising either hand and delivering a certain salute....


So let me get this straight. It's ok for a team to deliberately depress payroll and tank for high draft picks, when they are open to the public about it?



Rightly, or wrongly, the Pirates didn't feel comfortable investing in this current core. Do you blame them? Cole has pitched like a middle rotation guy outside of 2015. McCutchen is no longer an MVP candidate, Marte and Polanco do anything but instill confidence and Meadows and Glasnow do not look capable of contributing much at the MLB level in 2018. I'm not happy they didn't go out on a limb and add a SS,3B and SP. But what if they had done that and the Pirates still only got marginal production from all those players named above?



They're kicking the can down the street, they need to know what exactly they have in Polanco and Marte, are these lineup anchors or not? Are Meadows and Glasnow busts, are Taillon and Bell stars or just above average regulars? Which is the true Nova, and will Kuhl and Williams solidify their spots in the rotation?



The Pirates never really got the farm system boom that teams like the Astros and Cubs got. They clearly need to do a better job understanding what they have in their prospects. In hindsight, they should have moved Meadows and Glasnow years ago to bolster the 2016 team. But they flubbed it and got infatuated with their own prospects. I hope there's a lesson learned there. I also hope they knew what they were doing in accepting that Cole package from the Astros.

477A6469666C67456D7A6B6D6C080 wrote: And then what?



Are there stipulations on how they spend that money? I'm not sure it would be hard for the Pirates, if compelled, to provide an accounting of money spent on baseball operations. Such as operating their facility in the Dominican and building out their analytics office.



If the players association would show any capability of assessing a situation with multiple variables, they would understand that 4/30 teams spending double the median and over a third of the league spending 100M and less on payroll is bad for free agents.



Do a 180M cap with a 120M floor. Complaining about the teams that are rebuilding is farcical, because out the other side of their mouths their probably praising teams like the Astros, Cubs and Nationals that when rebuilding, were underspending their market by over $100M per year.
A cap and a floor is a great idea!

I too hope something comes of the MLB Players Association interest in the management of salaries by the Pirates. As someone stated earlier or on another thread, Nutting is not going to change his method and philosophy of operating the ball club.

Sure, we are a small market team operating in a sport where free agency is king. But what is stopping the Brewers, Royals and others from working all the angles to be more than just competitive??? No those teams have ownership who want to win and do all they can to make their teams competitive. I would give anything to see Tull or someone else buy the team who is a true fan of baseball...Someone who will bring back Pirate Pride and put a team on the field who claws and fights and take their lumps and wins! Beat'em Bucs

It is still happening to those teams. When teams are rebuilding, their payrolls go down. Are they questioned too?



Houston was dead last in team payroll in 2016, 2014, and 2013. They were second to last in 2015. The Brewers were dead last in 2017. (opening day)



When you have a young team, payroll will be low. The Pirates extended a lot of guys for their little run. Yeah, it was still low, but they were winning.

7279717D7879622721566F777E7979387579160 wrote: It is still happening to those teams.  When teams are rebuilding, their payrolls go down.  Are they questioned too?



Houston was dead last in team payroll in 2016, 2014, and 2013.  They were second to last in 2015.  The Brewers were dead last in 2017. (opening day)



When you have a young team, payroll will be low.  The Pirates extended a lot of guys for their little run.  Yeah, it was still low, but they were winning.



   


well this Pirate management team said it didn't believe in windows, had a process that it was implementing and that process was going to lead to competing for championships year in and year out.



they no longer try to sell that to fans.



Now after a bridge year (which was a bridge to nowhere) and a second bridge year the team is rebuilding for some future date.



Some say since the rebuild didn't start until the trade of Cole this management team has 5 years to build a contender.



I just don't see any reason why a team that won 98 games in 2015 (without a lot of aging players and with a top 3 farm system) can't be competing for a Division title by 2018 or 19. Yet it seems like the Pirates are focused on some time away and believe there is no reason to be urgent about trying to put together a winning team.



It just amazes me how 20 years of losing has resulted in a large part of the fan base just saying so what about management, they are TBMIB who am I to question them.

The time frame is until the find an impact player.



Cleveland was treading in no man's land until Lindor. The Cubs' rebuild was until they brought Bryant up and Houston just all at once ended up with multiple franchise position players.



Expect the Pirates to tread water until they land that McCutchen 2011-2015 talent that you can build a lineup around.

6E48495E48582B0 wrote: It is still happening to those teams.  When teams are rebuilding, their payrolls go down.  Are they questioned too?



Houston was dead last in team payroll in 2016, 2014, and 2013.  They were second to last in 2015.  The Brewers were dead last in 2017. (opening day)



When you have a young team, payroll will be low.  The Pirates extended a lot of guys for their little run.  Yeah, it was still low, but they were winning.



   


well this Pirate management team said it didn't believe in windows, had a process that it was implementing and that process was going to lead to competing for championships year in and year out.



they no longer try to sell that to fans.



Now after a bridge year (which was a bridge to nowhere) and a second bridge year the team is rebuilding for some future date.



Some say since the rebuild didn't start until the trade of Cole this management team has 5 years to build a contender.



I just don't see any reason why a team that won 98 games in 2015 (without a lot of aging players and with a top 3 farm system) can't be competing for a Division title by 2018 or 19.  Yet it seems like the Pirates are focused on some time away and believe there is no reason to be urgent about trying to put together a winning team.



It just amazes me how 20 years of losing has resulted in a large part of the fan base just saying so what about management, they are TBMIB who am I to question them.


That is me. Well, I don't think they are the best in sports, but I give them the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean I am happy now. I am not. Of course, I want more. I want a World Series.



In my adult life, this is the only management team that has won. I was a teenager in the early 90's. 2013-2015 was the best Pirates seasons I ever went through. I know that is sad, but it is true.



I know people fault me, but I am willing to give Huntington another try to rebuild and get over that hump. He did it before. Can he do it again? I am willing to let him try. Again, I am not happy with him. But that doesn't mean I won't give him a chance or that he doesn't deserve one in my opinion. They were very close before.



A bunch of bad moves derailed that team. It sucks. I am disappointed they didn't add to the current team. To me, this was the off season to do so as needs were available (and still are). I am down on Huntington. I will certainly get louder if I don't see improvements.



With that said, I don't see them doing anything differently than other rebuilding teams have done. I feel if the Royals didn't win the WS, they would still be unloading guys this year. Houston did a great job in winning the WS so early with their rookie contract team. Huntington has to understand the window of opportunity. After the trades of Cole and McCutchen, I believe he thinks that too. I know he didn't say it, but most GMs don't like to take away hope.

The Pirate Payroll for the current 25 man active roster now stands at about $73 mil for next year, and another $2.5 mil for McCutchen. Only 11 players are making anything more than $75,000 north of the minor league minimum, including:



Cervelli $ 10.5

Harrison $ 10

Nova $ 8

Marte $ 7.5

Mercer $ 6.75

Rodriguez $ 5.75 (pro-rated bonus)

Hudson $ 5.5

Freese $ 4.25

Polanco $ 3.5

Kontos $ 2.725

Rivero $ 2.5



Unless other talent is added, the Pirates will have 14 players making the equivalent of the major league minimum.



I know that NH is talking about the Pirates looking to compete this year, but if that is the case, they need to add to what they have. I also note that NH's statement grates on me almost as badly as when McClendon used to talk about the players battling each and every game. In short, if you want to fight, you need enough talent to make it a fair fight.



Continuing, if next year's payroll is now about $75 mil, I don't see any advantage to the team in tearing the salary down any more (except to benefit Nutting). What I would favor is trading contracts that offer little value for the return - Hudson, Rodriguez, Freese and Cervelli --- IF the intent was to use those additional savings, perhaps $10 mil or so, to create a pool of $25 - $30 mil (based on last year's meager payroll) to add other pieces.



While I am not a big fan of Cobb, perhaps he could help to stabilize the rotation and allow one of the potential starters become a long man in the pen. Perhaps we try to swing a trade for Archer and take on his cost controlled contract to similarly strengthen the rotation. While the team does need more depth in the outfield, I am hesitant to see the team fritter away resources on more middling talent (e.g. Rodriguez, Freese and Hudson).



The current luxury tax appears to be having an impact on the big spenders. But, when the big spenders no longer spend enough to pay the luxury tax, it also means that those at the bottom (who are no longer getting their share of the tax) will have less to spend.



The earlier comment about having a floor and a ceiling would be an interesting approach; provided the floor is high enough and the ceiling is low enough. While the suggestion of 120 - 180 seems about right to me as a fan, I am certain that Harper would challenge because he would be hard pressed to receive the $40 mil per year or so that he feels that he is worth.



While the current system in baseball isn't fair to all team's and more particularly to the fans, the current system is even more problematic when an owner chooses not to allocate all of the money that he could to improve the team on the field.



I love baseball and I have rooted for the Pirates since the early 60's. It was great being a Pirate fan in 2013 - 2015. Sadly, I am now starting to look at the next decade or so as being as bad as the unrelenting streak of perpetual losing.

262D25292C2D367375023B232A2D2D6C212D420 wrote: It is still happening to those teams.  When teams are rebuilding, their payrolls go down.  Are they questioned too?



Houston was dead last in team payroll in 2016, 2014, and 2013.  They were second to last in 2015.  The Brewers were dead last in 2017. (opening day)



When you have a young team, payroll will be low.  The Pirates extended a lot of guys for their little run.  Yeah, it was still low, but they were winning.



   


well this Pirate management team said it didn't believe in windows, had a process that it was implementing and that process was going to lead to competing for championships year in and year out.



they no longer try to sell that to fans.



Now after a bridge year (which was a bridge to nowhere) and a second bridge year the team is rebuilding for some future date.



Some say since the rebuild didn't start until the trade of Cole this management team has 5 years to build a contender.



I just don't see any reason why a team that won 98 games in 2015 (without a lot of aging players and with a top 3 farm system) can't be competing for a Division title by 2018 or 19.  Yet it seems like the Pirates are focused on some time away and believe there is no reason to be urgent about trying to put together a winning team.



It just amazes me how 20 years of losing has resulted in a large part of the fan base just saying so what about management, they are TBMIB who am I to question them.


That is me.  Well, I don't think they are the best in sports, but I give them the benefit of the doubt.  That doesn't mean I am happy now.  I am not.  Of course, I want more.  I want a World Series.



In my adult life, this is the only management team that has won.  I was a teenager in the early 90's.  2013-2015 was the best Pirates seasons I ever went through.  I know that is sad, but it is true. 



I know people fault me, but I am willing to give Huntington another try to rebuild and get over that hump.  He did it before.  Can he do it again?  I am willing to let him try.  Again, I am not happy with him.  But that doesn't mean I won't give him a chance or that he doesn't deserve one in my opinion.  They were very close before. 



A bunch of bad moves derailed that team.  It sucks.  I am disappointed they didn't add to the current team.  To me, this was the off season to do so as needs were available (and still are).  I am down on Huntington.  I will certainly get louder if I don't see improvements. 



With that said, I don't see them doing anything differently than other rebuilding teams have done.  I feel if the Royals didn't win the WS, they would still be unloading guys this year.  Houston did a great job in winning the WS so early with their rookie contract team.  Huntington has to understand the window of opportunity.  After the trades of Cole and McCutchen, I believe he thinks that too.  I know he didn't say it, but most GMs don't like to take away hope.


Dog, that explains why you believe what you believe. And that's fine. But it doesn't explain why you argue with everyone who goes by what they see rather than blind faith. It would be great for all Pirate fans if you are proven right about the BMTIB being committed and capable. But understand that others have every right to feel differently based on what they see. You don't have to argue with everyone who doesn't share your rosy outlook.