OnlyBucs

39323A363332296C6A1D243C353232733E325D0 wrote: With that said, you can't ignore the success they had with their approach.  They were one of the best teams in a three year period.  Teams actually followed their shifting and groundball theory too.


OK. What teams followed their Gb and pitch to contact philosophy? My hypothesis, and it's by no means a fact, is that AJ Burnett and Liriano were special birds. They were outliers. GB masters, but also with bat-missing stuff. In other words, they were exceptionally talented pitchers with exceptional stuff. They weren't pitching to contact, they were K'ing guys. It just so happened that when they weren't K'ing guys, they were inducing GB's too.

727B73626C160 wrote: With that said, you can't ignore the success they had with their approach.  They were one of the best teams in a three year period.  Teams actually followed their shifting and groundball theory too.


Just because AJ and Liriano took to the 2-seam fastball well doesn't mean that it was the right pitch for Morton or Cole.  Those two guys had awesome 2-seamers, as well as secondary pitches.   It also doesn't mean it's the best pitch for Taillon to be throwing so often either or Chad Kuhl.   



The "fastball academy" has produced two top of the rotation starters... for the Houston Astros, after they expressedly told them to STOP.    How does that make the org feel?   Hopefully, and I know I'm stretching here, it makes them feel stupid and embarrassed.  I doubt it does, but hopefully!    



I hate pitching to contact.  I've been blathering about it for years and finally glad after years of doing it there appears to be some traction with getting it stopped.   I'm definitely not against throwing fastballs.  Guys like Nova have to throw it because their secondary stuff is lousy.  I think that's why Nova is a back of the rotation guy, when the dust settles, he doesn't have enough quality mix.   There's nothing wrong with that.  However, we have pitchers who have + offspeed stuff, unlike Nova, who don't need to grind away with fastball after fastball just asking ML hitters to put wood on it. 



The evidence is really quite mountainous at this point that we're taking starting pitchers with good "stuff" and making them worse than they otherwise would be by forcing fastballs onto them.  How on earth could baseball people not be questioning how Cole's K/9 numbers weren't higher with the arsenal and arm that he had??? 



We ought to start calling ourselves the "back of the rotation starter academy"    ;D.     




I think you are missing the point. I am not knocking you either. It is very interesting to me and you did bring it up first. You are opening my eyes for sure.



The Pirates strategy did work for a short period of time. They were one of the most successful teams in all of baseball. They put up Wins. That strategy did work, that is a fact.



Has Houston always had this strategy? Their current Pitching coach has been in a majors for a long time. This is actually his second time around with the Astros. They didn't have success before if this was always their strategy.



Cole was in the Top 10 in strike outs in 2015 and 2017. You don't think he is trying to get the strike out every time? I don't believe there are coaches or philosophies that strike outs aren't wanted. It's if you aren't going to strike a guy out, you better get a ground ball instead of a fly ball.



Many teams followed the shifting the Pirates introduced. Many teams want that ground ball. There is a reason why hitters are trying to elevate the ball more this year. It's because teams/pitchers are trying to prevent the fly ball. They want a ball in play to be on the ground. I do too.



I do agree teams need to adjust to their talent or get guys who fit their philosophy. The Pirates were very successful with this ground ball approach. It made them relevant again. If the strategy isn't working, I hope they adjust. I just won't say it is the worst strategy ever when we saw it work before. Maybe Cole and Morton will open up about their new approach and the Pirates can learn from that too?