In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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OrlandoMerced
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
Players like Polanco, Diaz, Dickerson, Crick, Marte and Williams forced this trade.
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maher.timothy20@gm
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
4A4D5B535D4A0D01785F55595154165B5755380 wrote: PMike, glad for you as you never gave up on the plan.
I agree with much of what you shared. But want to comment on a few.
I have to completely disagree about this being representative of Neal in the past. If we were to turn the clock back just a bit, so that Glasnow was still listed as a prospect, Neal dealt 3!! Of his too 10 prospects, including two of his two top projects. He has never come close to using his entire system for the sake of the entire system. This is the first time, imho, that Neal has subordinated the farm/future for the big leagues/present. The fact he has had some real success with reclamation projects is very different than going out and acquiring the best play he could afford.
That’s the difference: he could have repeated prior years and brought a project back for no cost. Instead he used available resources to acquire the best player he could afford.
Since I think the FO did bring a new approach to these trades, the Q is “why”? I believe 100% that the fans have a real part of this change. I’ll put it this way: I’ve heard Neal talk, on several occasions, about failing after the 2015 season. It’s said in context of mistakes that impact community support. I think Neal and Frank both know that you have to manage, to sone significant degree, for the hope of the fans. Attendance this year got the attention of the FO.
I also hate to lose Glasnow and rooted for the guy. But I’m 100% on board with this move.
I’m one who believes Kang will be TPTBNL.
I’m not sold on changing th middle infield. This is obviously a very tight clubhouse. If Jordy or JHay are moved I think it would have real negative impact. I agree about Jordy’s range. But j wonder about Josh, the eye test looks like he’s still a good defender. I’d be interested to know how many basehits per game are the result of the range of the middle IF.
If Keller could be a true ACE - this team will compete for a WS next 2-3 years. If Keller is more like Tallion, the Pirates are still going to compete for a WS. But Keller could lift this team to elite status.
Man, I had not considered the possibility of Kang being the player to be named. I was counting on him being our starting 3rd baseman next year, holding the fort for Hayes the year after.
If that's the case, all I can say is: Archer better be good.
I agree with much of what you shared. But want to comment on a few.
I have to completely disagree about this being representative of Neal in the past. If we were to turn the clock back just a bit, so that Glasnow was still listed as a prospect, Neal dealt 3!! Of his too 10 prospects, including two of his two top projects. He has never come close to using his entire system for the sake of the entire system. This is the first time, imho, that Neal has subordinated the farm/future for the big leagues/present. The fact he has had some real success with reclamation projects is very different than going out and acquiring the best play he could afford.
That’s the difference: he could have repeated prior years and brought a project back for no cost. Instead he used available resources to acquire the best player he could afford.
Since I think the FO did bring a new approach to these trades, the Q is “why”? I believe 100% that the fans have a real part of this change. I’ll put it this way: I’ve heard Neal talk, on several occasions, about failing after the 2015 season. It’s said in context of mistakes that impact community support. I think Neal and Frank both know that you have to manage, to sone significant degree, for the hope of the fans. Attendance this year got the attention of the FO.
I also hate to lose Glasnow and rooted for the guy. But I’m 100% on board with this move.
I’m one who believes Kang will be TPTBNL.
I’m not sold on changing th middle infield. This is obviously a very tight clubhouse. If Jordy or JHay are moved I think it would have real negative impact. I agree about Jordy’s range. But j wonder about Josh, the eye test looks like he’s still a good defender. I’d be interested to know how many basehits per game are the result of the range of the middle IF.
If Keller could be a true ACE - this team will compete for a WS next 2-3 years. If Keller is more like Tallion, the Pirates are still going to compete for a WS. But Keller could lift this team to elite status.
Man, I had not considered the possibility of Kang being the player to be named. I was counting on him being our starting 3rd baseman next year, holding the fort for Hayes the year after.
If that's the case, all I can say is: Archer better be good.
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
665458584C7E5D54595C5354350 wrote:
I think the fans were fairly instrumental in the deadline moves.
Does this team seem to you like a team that (for good or bad) does things because the fans say they want it?
This trade can be based on economics (fans in the seats) and for improving the team. So I think it is reasonable to say the fans helped spur on this deal.
I think the fans were fairly instrumental in the deadline moves.
Does this team seem to you like a team that (for good or bad) does things because the fans say they want it?
This trade can be based on economics (fans in the seats) and for improving the team. So I think it is reasonable to say the fans helped spur on this deal.
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UtahPirate
- Posts: 582
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:36 pm
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
687551535D380 wrote: In honor of our new #24, here are some things I am thinking today after the trade deadline…
1. People rail on NH, but what he did at this deadline is exactly what he has talked about and done, albeit at a smaller scale, throughout his whole tenure. They intend to win now and for the future and they don’t sell the farm for a short term window. It seems that many folks think this is a new era, but I would argue that NH executed a move that is larger than previous one, but totally in line with their philosophy.
When we traded Cole and Cutch the front office stuck to a message of building a team that could be back in the hunt, if not this year then next. It didn't seem like many were buying their line of we aren't rebuilding, just reloading.
Included in those trades were Bryan Reynolds, who was somewhere down the pack of Giants prospects. He has put in a pretty solid year at Altoona, looks like a good prospect and is #9 on our current list. For Cole the talk was all about Musgrove, Feliz and Moran. The complaint is we got guys who weren't big prospects. Jason Martin wasn't even discussed for the most part. At 22 years old and #14 on our prospect list, he was great at AA and has continued to play well at Indy.
Both have added really good OF depth to the system and actually gave us good players below Meadows, which makes his exit easier to understand.
NH gets beat up a lot, but I think his Cole, Cutch, Meadows/Glasnow trades have strengthened our system, while fitting his philosophy of reloading the MLB team. We have a young, controllable core and some nice infield pieces ready to contribute next year as well.
1. People rail on NH, but what he did at this deadline is exactly what he has talked about and done, albeit at a smaller scale, throughout his whole tenure. They intend to win now and for the future and they don’t sell the farm for a short term window. It seems that many folks think this is a new era, but I would argue that NH executed a move that is larger than previous one, but totally in line with their philosophy.
When we traded Cole and Cutch the front office stuck to a message of building a team that could be back in the hunt, if not this year then next. It didn't seem like many were buying their line of we aren't rebuilding, just reloading.
Included in those trades were Bryan Reynolds, who was somewhere down the pack of Giants prospects. He has put in a pretty solid year at Altoona, looks like a good prospect and is #9 on our current list. For Cole the talk was all about Musgrove, Feliz and Moran. The complaint is we got guys who weren't big prospects. Jason Martin wasn't even discussed for the most part. At 22 years old and #14 on our prospect list, he was great at AA and has continued to play well at Indy.
Both have added really good OF depth to the system and actually gave us good players below Meadows, which makes his exit easier to understand.
NH gets beat up a lot, but I think his Cole, Cutch, Meadows/Glasnow trades have strengthened our system, while fitting his philosophy of reloading the MLB team. We have a young, controllable core and some nice infield pieces ready to contribute next year as well.
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
It's a 180 from previous thinking, not a justification or continuation of it. It's embracing a window that's been opened by our OF of Dickerson Marte and Polanco
The moves align us, they give up possible future for the Marte, Polanco Dickerson outfield.
So I could hardly disagree more with it continuing a philosophy. It's embracing a window opened now and with Keller, Hayes, Martin, Kramer/Newman to assist.
It's the right change. Now let's get the infield fixed in short order and we've really got something going
Edit: and can't forget luplow. Dude has some tools that are surprising.
The moves align us, they give up possible future for the Marte, Polanco Dickerson outfield.
So I could hardly disagree more with it continuing a philosophy. It's embracing a window opened now and with Keller, Hayes, Martin, Kramer/Newman to assist.
It's the right change. Now let's get the infield fixed in short order and we've really got something going
Edit: and can't forget luplow. Dude has some tools that are surprising.
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
I wouldn't blame the team if it is Kang. He is far from a sure thing and has some real negative issues. While he has a high ceiling I wouldn't blame the front office to use him to keep a piece for the future.
Another move I would like would be to do something with SRod. Unless, they think this would really change the locker room, dump him and bring up Newman. They could really use a good defensive replacement for Jordy to give him some days off. If he hits rotate him with Harrison, too.
Another move I would like would be to do something with SRod. Unless, they think this would really change the locker room, dump him and bring up Newman. They could really use a good defensive replacement for Jordy to give him some days off. If he hits rotate him with Harrison, too.
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
4E474F5E502A0 wrote: It's a 180 from previous thinking, not a justification or continuation of it. It's embracing a window that's been opened by our OF of Dickerson Marte and Polanco
The moves align us, they give up possible future for the Marte, Polanco Dickerson outfield.
So I could hardly disagree more with it continuing a philosophy. It's embracing a window opened now and with Keller, Hayes, Martin, Kramer/Newman to assist.
It's the right change. Now let's get the infield fixed in short order and we've really got something going
Edit: and can't forget luplow. Dude has some tools that are surprising.
I see your perspective. You may be right. I think that they have likely learned that there are opportunities to invest more in the team and make the big trade. I don't think that then means they are abandoning the future. Again, I think this is something that they have learned out of their mistakes and adapted their model without abandoning it completely. I would imagine that they think that they will be just as competitive post Marte/Dickerson/Polanco/etc as they anticipate being in the next 2-3 years.
I would argue that Keller/Hayes/Martin/Kramer/Newman would all be reasons why NH would say the future looks great in the 2021+ era and he doesn't expect any of them to really contribute a ton in the next 2-3 years, maybe other than Keller.
The moves align us, they give up possible future for the Marte, Polanco Dickerson outfield.
So I could hardly disagree more with it continuing a philosophy. It's embracing a window opened now and with Keller, Hayes, Martin, Kramer/Newman to assist.
It's the right change. Now let's get the infield fixed in short order and we've really got something going
Edit: and can't forget luplow. Dude has some tools that are surprising.
I see your perspective. You may be right. I think that they have likely learned that there are opportunities to invest more in the team and make the big trade. I don't think that then means they are abandoning the future. Again, I think this is something that they have learned out of their mistakes and adapted their model without abandoning it completely. I would imagine that they think that they will be just as competitive post Marte/Dickerson/Polanco/etc as they anticipate being in the next 2-3 years.
I would argue that Keller/Hayes/Martin/Kramer/Newman would all be reasons why NH would say the future looks great in the 2021+ era and he doesn't expect any of them to really contribute a ton in the next 2-3 years, maybe other than Keller.
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
From an article in the Athletic today by Ken Rosenthal:
The Pittsburgh Pirates?
I inquired about them with Rays officials but heard the same refrain I often have heard from rival executives about the Pirates’ negotiating strategy under general manager Neal Huntington: They’re always in, but never totally in.
This time, though, proved different.
No, this is not the same strategy as before. This is not the failed "perpetually competitive" philosophy that we've seen employed. The Archer and Kela deals aren't just some typical nibble around the fringes, barrel scraping, reclamation project trade deadline dumpster dives we've seen before-and yes, some were successful like J.A. Happ but most were of the Travis Snyder and Antonio Bastardo variety. Also, Huntington parted with top young talent, something he has been loathe to do in the past in order to consummate the trades. The Archer and Kela deals are impactful trades involving established, talented major leaguers who will help the team now and in the future.
The Pittsburgh Pirates?
I inquired about them with Rays officials but heard the same refrain I often have heard from rival executives about the Pirates’ negotiating strategy under general manager Neal Huntington: They’re always in, but never totally in.
This time, though, proved different.
No, this is not the same strategy as before. This is not the failed "perpetually competitive" philosophy that we've seen employed. The Archer and Kela deals aren't just some typical nibble around the fringes, barrel scraping, reclamation project trade deadline dumpster dives we've seen before-and yes, some were successful like J.A. Happ but most were of the Travis Snyder and Antonio Bastardo variety. Also, Huntington parted with top young talent, something he has been loathe to do in the past in order to consummate the trades. The Archer and Kela deals are impactful trades involving established, talented major leaguers who will help the team now and in the future.
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
303931202E540 wrote: It's a 180 from previous thinking, not a justification or continuation of it. It's embracing a window that's been opened by our OF of Dickerson Marte and Polanco
The moves align us, they give up possible future for the Marte, Polanco Dickerson outfield.
So I could hardly disagree more with it continuing a philosophy. It's embracing a window opened now and with Keller, Hayes, Martin, Kramer/Newman to assist.
It's the right change. Now let's get the infield fixed in short order and we've really got something going
Edit: and can't forget luplow. Dude has some tools that are surprising.
I'm with you this is not a continuation of a current philosophy. This is a completely different path. I like the move. If Kang ends up being the PTBNL I will utterly and completely change my opinion. Kang will be a difference maker when he returns.
The moves align us, they give up possible future for the Marte, Polanco Dickerson outfield.
So I could hardly disagree more with it continuing a philosophy. It's embracing a window opened now and with Keller, Hayes, Martin, Kramer/Newman to assist.
It's the right change. Now let's get the infield fixed in short order and we've really got something going
Edit: and can't forget luplow. Dude has some tools that are surprising.
I'm with you this is not a continuation of a current philosophy. This is a completely different path. I like the move. If Kang ends up being the PTBNL I will utterly and completely change my opinion. Kang will be a difference maker when he returns.
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
Adding, that if you look at this trade as Dickerson and Archer for Meadows, Glasnow, Hudson and Player to be named, it’s a no brained.
We couldn’t have made this trade in the past because we didn’t have the OF depth.
Dickerson plus Luplow being an adaquate forth OF, plus the emergence of the return of this winters trades plus signs of life in the lower minors (Swaggerty, Lolo, Mitchell even Cruz etc) made Meadows a surplus player. I really don’t ever remember the Pirates being able to trade from a surplus before.
Another note is that we seem to have minor league system that is able to help at the major league level on the short term. Frazier, Osuna, Luplow, and Moroff have all effectively played ok in the majors this year after time at Indy.
Same with Kingham, Holmes and Crick. This has usually been a black hole for us, so it’s nice to see some competence out of our role players.
We couldn’t have made this trade in the past because we didn’t have the OF depth.
Dickerson plus Luplow being an adaquate forth OF, plus the emergence of the return of this winters trades plus signs of life in the lower minors (Swaggerty, Lolo, Mitchell even Cruz etc) made Meadows a surplus player. I really don’t ever remember the Pirates being able to trade from a surplus before.
Another note is that we seem to have minor league system that is able to help at the major league level on the short term. Frazier, Osuna, Luplow, and Moroff have all effectively played ok in the majors this year after time at Indy.
Same with Kingham, Holmes and Crick. This has usually been a black hole for us, so it’s nice to see some competence out of our role players.