OnlyBucs

3136273427767B420 wrote: It's way to soon. You do realize over Glasnow's last 2 starts that cover 11.2 innings he has given up 8 runs, 8 hits and 6 walks? He could become a good pitcher but it seems that some of the old issues are still there. I understand Archer has been very bad so far, but he does have talent. Lets see what happens.
Yes, Glasnow's last 2 games have not been too impressive. And teams are stealing bases on him like crazy. The jury is certainly still out on him. I was not against trading him. I was not against the trade altho subsequently including Baz was distressing. I think it showed that Glasnow didn't have great value to TB and they wanted another significant prospect besides Meadows.



Hopefully, Archer can turn it around and be an asset the next 3 years. If not, then I would question TBMTIB's due diligence. As fans, we aren't experts on Archer but he has a reputation is a very good pitcher. If he isn't the pitcher we thought he was, then the Pirates should have done their homework before making the deal. But Archer has been too good to suddenly be this bad. His worst ERA in the DH-laden A.L. was 4.07, and he had 3 years between 3.22 and 3.33. Until this year he's always had substantially fewer hits than IP. And yet with the Bucs he's got a WHIP of 1.746. This season is a wash anyway. Hopefully by next season he will resemble the guy they thought they were getting.   


From what I've read TB has wanted Glasnow for some time now. They thought he very likely would to a top pitcher . Unlike the Pirates , TB advocates the high FB and not the low FB to induce contact. This fits Glasnow's  stuff very well.As for Baez , I think it was a question of Huntington being outwitted more than TB not coveting Glasnow. But like you , I can only go by what I read as we'll never know if TB would have taken less than Baz. Christ... we don't even know how much TB even really like Archer.
Yes, I believe TB was interested in getting Glasnow. I'm sure they were well aware of how highly he was regarded coming up thru the minors. As is often the case, one organization believes they can correct the flaws of another organization's disappointments. But TB also knew that Glasnow had been a failure thus far, had control problems, can't seem to keep runners off base, can't keep them from stealing and gives up way too many runs. TB was probably hopeful they could correct him and would have a very high quality pitcher if they did. But trading for a problematic pitcher you hope to correct is far different from trading for an established pitcher or just a top prospect who has not experienced problems. There were no guarantees so TB was taking a chance on Glasnow. A high ceiling vs a low floor. And the Pirates were well aware that Glasnow might never developed as they had hoped. I believe that's why both teams agreed that Glasnow and Meadows might not be enough and Baz was included. There are no guarantees on Baz either and he's far from being ready.

I saw Glasnow play in Cincinnati the last Sunday before he was traded. My daughter's boyfriend, who is a college player, didn't say much to me the whole game until Glasnow came in. Then he said "who the heck is this guy?" He was throwing absolute smoke.



Glasnow has the pitches. And so does Archer. But both of them need to learn how to consistently pitch. The Bucs are trying to get Archer to add to his Fastball/Slider repertoire and he is having growing pains. Forget this year. Let's see what happens in 2019 and beyond. Both have very good stuff.

1A1D312630530 wrote: I saw Glasnow play in Cincinnati the last Sunday before he was traded.  My daughter's boyfriend, who is a college player, didn't say much to me the whole game until Glasnow came in.  Then he said "who the heck is this guy?"  He was throwing absolute smoke.



Glasnow has the pitches.  And so does Archer.  But both of them need to learn how to consistently pitch.  The Bucs are trying to get Archer to add to his Fastball/Slider repertoire and he is having growing pains.  Forget this year.  Let's see what happens in 2019 and beyond.  Both have very good stuff. 


Very true. Archer's stuff just looks way too good for the results he has been getting. I did read a fangraphs article about his slider. It had consistently rated as one of the best pitches in baseball. Then all of a sudden it started to get hit. They showed a heat chart and it seems he was just catching to much plate. The break and spin rate where exactly the same it was just up out over the plate. It was a very interesting read.

I had also hoped that Glasnow would have been in the rotation at some point this year. I think he showed improvements out of the pen and think he can become a solid pitcher. However, I think by the time he figures this stuff out he would have not been affordable. I am not going to go after NH for trading him because he took a chance and Glasnow had done nothing but show brief glimpses of potential.

https://www.bucsdugout.com/2018/8/22/17 ... her-sinker

777D726F7D6F7A7D721C0 wrote: Wait a second.  This board has been clamoring for YEARS that we should make bold moves, like trading prospects for REAL major league talent.  This board had completely soured on Glasnow for good reason - he looked like a scared middle school girl every time he took the mound.  This board almost universally praised the trade when it happened (although admittedly some of the excitement dimmed when Baz was the PTBNL, but even then, most recognized that he's far off from even pitching in the majors).



And now after a few starts, this board (or at least some portion of it) thinks that NH should be fired because of the trade?



Hey, I don't know how this trade will work out.  Archer could blow out his arm tomorrow, or just be ineffective for the rest of his MLB career; and Glasnow and Meadows could become Hall of Fame players.  But that will not change the fact that I agreed with the trade when it happened.  And most of this board did, too.



Let's try not to talk out of both sides of our mouth too much.


This is exactly right. Couldn't have said it any better. I was clamoring for a deal like this to be honest. Pittsburgh traded potential in this deal. Whether it works out, I have no clue. I really don't have much faith in Glasnow being significant. We haven't seen the best of Archer. That will come next year. People wanted a deal ... got one ... Archer has struggled a bit and now the masses are P*ssed that the deal they wanted happened. Can't have it both ways.

54444572646468070 wrote: Wait a second.  This board has been clamoring for YEARS that we should make bold moves, like trading prospects for REAL major league talent.  This board had completely soured on Glasnow for good reason - he looked like a scared middle school girl every time he took the mound.  This board almost universally praised the trade when it happened (although admittedly some of the excitement dimmed when Baz was the PTBNL, but even then, most recognized that he's far off from even pitching in the majors).



And now after a few starts, this board (or at least some portion of it) thinks that NH should be fired because of the trade?



Hey, I don't know how this trade will work out.  Archer could blow out his arm tomorrow, or just be ineffective for the rest of his MLB career; and Glasnow and Meadows could become Hall of Fame players.  But that will not change the fact that I agreed with the trade when it happened.  And most of this board did, too.



Let's try not to talk out of both sides of our mouth too much.


This is exactly right.  Couldn't have said it any better.  I was clamoring for a deal like this to be honest.  Pittsburgh traded potential in this deal.  Whether it works out, I have no clue.  I really don't have much faith in Glasnow being significant.  We haven't seen the best of Archer.  That will come next year.  People wanted a deal ... got one ... Archer has struggled a bit and now the masses are P*ssed that the deal they wanted happened.  Can't have it both ways.


Yup. I was in favor of this trade when it was announced and still like the deal. Way too small a sample size to evaluate it from a player value perspective, but the fact that NH was willing to make a trade for a respected and talented MLB player by using top prospects at least interrupted the seemingly endless cycle of dumpster diving that had characterized so much of the last couple of seasons. It's exactly the kind of deal for a starting pitcher that I'd been advocating with names like Price, Sale and Quintana in the past, so yeah I'm still happily all in on this deal and have some real optimism about the Pirates for the first time since 2015.

5A7E6A62670B0 wrote: Wait a second.  This board has been clamoring for YEARS that we should make bold moves, like trading prospects for REAL major league talent.  This board had completely soured on Glasnow for good reason - he looked like a scared middle school girl every time he took the mound.  This board almost universally praised the trade when it happened (although admittedly some of the excitement dimmed when Baz was the PTBNL, but even then, most recognized that he's far off from even pitching in the majors).



And now after a few starts, this board (or at least some portion of it) thinks that NH should be fired because of the trade?



Hey, I don't know how this trade will work out.  Archer could blow out his arm tomorrow, or just be ineffective for the rest of his MLB career; and Glasnow and Meadows could become Hall of Fame players.  But that will not change the fact that I agreed with the trade when it happened.  And most of this board did, too.



Let's try not to talk out of both sides of our mouth too much.


This is exactly right.  Couldn't have said it any better.  I was clamoring for a deal like this to be honest.  Pittsburgh traded potential in this deal.  Whether it works out, I have no clue.  I really don't have much faith in Glasnow being significant.  We haven't seen the best of Archer.  That will come next year.  People wanted a deal ... got one ... Archer has struggled a bit and now the masses are P*ssed that the deal they wanted happened.  Can't have it both ways.


Yup. I was in favor of this trade when it was announced and still like the deal. Way too small a sample size to evaluate it from a player value perspective, but the fact that NH was willing to make a trade for a respected and talented MLB player by using top prospects at least interrupted the seemingly endless cycle of dumpster diving that had characterized so much of the last couple of seasons. It's exactly the kind of deal for a starting pitcher that I'd been advocating with names like Price, Sale and Quintana in the past, so yeah I'm still happily all in on this deal and have some real optimism about the Pirates for the first time since 2015.
I've got my fingers crossed that Archer and Taillon are going to be good pitchers (type of pitchers you want in a playoff series). If they are the Bucs can be dangerous next year.

6A474A5B5C4D5A1A19280 wrote: TB was probably hopeful they could correct him and would have a very high quality pitcher if they did. But trading for a problematic pitcher you hope to correct is far different from trading for an established pitcher or just a top prospect who has not experienced problems.


Replace TB above with PIT. That's the problem with this trade. If it was a one-for-one, it makes a lot of sense. A top prospect who hasn't established traded for a guy that has shown potential but not delivered for a couple of years. You could argue that Archer has established his floor, so you pay more. OK. Meadows was the more. And a lot to give as the odds he turns into a nice ML regular are probably as high as Archer's odds of recovering his prior form. Add Baz on top of it and you have a massive overpay for a #3/4 pitcher with the potential to return to high-end #2 or low-end #1 form, but no evidence that it will happen. Just as there is little evidence that Glasnow will become a TOR starter.

Speaking of the trade ... Austin Meadows tonight: 4-4 with 3 HR.