0A2B230A21294E0 wrote: I don't blame Keller. He is not ready for the BigTime yet. Needs more work at AAA. I do blame TBMTIB for their lack of intelligence when it comes to getting a living breathing backup starter or two in the off-season. No way should a team have to bring up their top prospect unless he was pitching lights-out in AAA. Shame on you TBMTIB!
I saw others on social media say the same thing. 4 innings later, it seems a little premature. After that first inning, he settled in and looked pretty dominant.
Pirates vs Reds - Game 2 of DH 5/27
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Pirates vs Reds - Game 2 of DH 5/27
not like the Pirates haven’t had chances to score this game. Difference is that Iglesias came through with the bases loaded. Polanco struck out with the bases loaded in the fifth, and we could only manage one run with second and third, no outs in the sixth.
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Bobster21
Pirates vs Reds - Game 2 of DH 5/27
At least Keller rebounded with 3 good innings. but I've reached the point where I have no confidence that the Pirate organization can adequately develop pitchers. Which is very disturbing for an organization whose strategy is to win via strong pitching developed internally.
OF NH's 1st rd pitchers, Vic Black didn't make it, Cole didn't become the stud he was supposed to be until he went to a different team with a different philosophy. Taillon did well last year. Not so well the 2 years prior to that or this year prior to his injury.
Kingham was supposed to be the next great prospect. Now we cringe when they have to use him. Morton, Brault and Locke were minor league pitchers acquired in trades. Like Cole, Morton had to leave the organization to find success. Locke and Brault never became good. Glasnow was unable to develop as a Pirate and immediately found success with a new team. And the steady stream of AAA pitchers that have been recalled this year all look like AAAA pitchers. There seems to be problem with identifying good prospects and turning prospects into above average MLB pitchers. Whatever this organization is doing is not working well enough. I'll hope for the best with Keller but the pattern seems to be that these young Pirate pitchers consistently fail to develop into what they were expected to be.
OF NH's 1st rd pitchers, Vic Black didn't make it, Cole didn't become the stud he was supposed to be until he went to a different team with a different philosophy. Taillon did well last year. Not so well the 2 years prior to that or this year prior to his injury.
Kingham was supposed to be the next great prospect. Now we cringe when they have to use him. Morton, Brault and Locke were minor league pitchers acquired in trades. Like Cole, Morton had to leave the organization to find success. Locke and Brault never became good. Glasnow was unable to develop as a Pirate and immediately found success with a new team. And the steady stream of AAA pitchers that have been recalled this year all look like AAAA pitchers. There seems to be problem with identifying good prospects and turning prospects into above average MLB pitchers. Whatever this organization is doing is not working well enough. I'll hope for the best with Keller but the pattern seems to be that these young Pirate pitchers consistently fail to develop into what they were expected to be.
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steve49
Pirates vs Reds - Game 2 of DH 5/27
436E63727564733330010 wrote: At least Keller rebounded with 3 good innings. but I've reached the point where I have no confidence that the Pirate organization can adequately develop pitchers. Which is very disturbing for an organization whose strategy is to win via strong pitching developed internally.
OF NH's 1st rd pitchers, Vic Black didn't make it, Cole didn't become the stud he was supposed to be until he went to a different team with a different philosophy. Taillon did well last year. Not so well the 2 years prior to that or this year prior to his injury.
Kingham was supposed to be the next great prospect. Now we cringe when they have to use him. Morton, Brault and Locke were minor league pitchers acquired in trades. Like Cole, Morton had to leave the organization to find success. Locke and Brault never became good. Glasnow was unable to develop as a Pirate and immediately found success with a new team. And the steady stream of AAA pitchers that have been recalled this year all look like AAAA pitchers. There seems to be problem with identifying good prospects and turning prospects into above average MLB pitchers. Whatever this organization is doing is not working well enough. I'll hope for the best with Keller but the pattern seems to be that these young Pirate pitchers consistently fail to develop into what they were expected to be.
IMO , the sample size is way too big to ignore. Pretty good bet that the Pirates as you say are buffoons at developing their young pitchers. However , they do seem to do well with retread pitchers.
When you combine this with a team that won't spend money and fans that won't support a non playoff team , the outlook is not too bright.
OF NH's 1st rd pitchers, Vic Black didn't make it, Cole didn't become the stud he was supposed to be until he went to a different team with a different philosophy. Taillon did well last year. Not so well the 2 years prior to that or this year prior to his injury.
Kingham was supposed to be the next great prospect. Now we cringe when they have to use him. Morton, Brault and Locke were minor league pitchers acquired in trades. Like Cole, Morton had to leave the organization to find success. Locke and Brault never became good. Glasnow was unable to develop as a Pirate and immediately found success with a new team. And the steady stream of AAA pitchers that have been recalled this year all look like AAAA pitchers. There seems to be problem with identifying good prospects and turning prospects into above average MLB pitchers. Whatever this organization is doing is not working well enough. I'll hope for the best with Keller but the pattern seems to be that these young Pirate pitchers consistently fail to develop into what they were expected to be.
IMO , the sample size is way too big to ignore. Pretty good bet that the Pirates as you say are buffoons at developing their young pitchers. However , they do seem to do well with retread pitchers.
When you combine this with a team that won't spend money and fans that won't support a non playoff team , the outlook is not too bright.
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Bobster21
Pirates vs Reds - Game 2 of DH 5/27
3C3B2A392A7B764F0 wrote: At least Keller rebounded with 3 good innings. but I've reached the point where I have no confidence that the Pirate organization can adequately develop pitchers. Which is very disturbing for an organization whose strategy is to win via strong pitching developed internally.
OF NH's 1st rd pitchers, Vic Black didn't make it, Cole didn't become the stud he was supposed to be until he went to a different team with a different philosophy. Taillon did well last year. Not so well the 2 years prior to that or this year prior to his injury.
Kingham was supposed to be the next great prospect. Now we cringe when they have to use him. Morton, Brault and Locke were minor league pitchers acquired in trades. Like Cole, Morton had to leave the organization to find success. Locke and Brault never became good. Glasnow was unable to develop as a Pirate and immediately found success with a new team. And the steady stream of AAA pitchers that have been recalled this year all look like AAAA pitchers. There seems to be problem with identifying good prospects and turning prospects into above average MLB pitchers. Whatever this organization is doing is not working well enough. I'll hope for the best with Keller but the pattern seems to be that these young Pirate pitchers consistently fail to develop into what they were expected to be.
IMO , the sample size is way too big to ignore. Pretty good bet that the Pirates as you say are buffoons at developing their young pitchers. However , they do seem to do well with retread pitchers.
When you combine this with a team that won't spend money and fans that won't support a non playoff team , the outlook is not too bright.
Volquez, Burnett, Liriano and Happ all had 1 or more outstanding seasons before the Pirates acquired them but none were doing well at the time they were acquired. Searage seems to have a knack for helping pitchers who have already become successful to regain that lost ability. The problem seems to be that pitchers who are developed by the Pirates rarely become successful. That suggests a problem teaching these guys to pitch at a higher level.
OF NH's 1st rd pitchers, Vic Black didn't make it, Cole didn't become the stud he was supposed to be until he went to a different team with a different philosophy. Taillon did well last year. Not so well the 2 years prior to that or this year prior to his injury.
Kingham was supposed to be the next great prospect. Now we cringe when they have to use him. Morton, Brault and Locke were minor league pitchers acquired in trades. Like Cole, Morton had to leave the organization to find success. Locke and Brault never became good. Glasnow was unable to develop as a Pirate and immediately found success with a new team. And the steady stream of AAA pitchers that have been recalled this year all look like AAAA pitchers. There seems to be problem with identifying good prospects and turning prospects into above average MLB pitchers. Whatever this organization is doing is not working well enough. I'll hope for the best with Keller but the pattern seems to be that these young Pirate pitchers consistently fail to develop into what they were expected to be.
IMO , the sample size is way too big to ignore. Pretty good bet that the Pirates as you say are buffoons at developing their young pitchers. However , they do seem to do well with retread pitchers.
When you combine this with a team that won't spend money and fans that won't support a non playoff team , the outlook is not too bright.
Volquez, Burnett, Liriano and Happ all had 1 or more outstanding seasons before the Pirates acquired them but none were doing well at the time they were acquired. Searage seems to have a knack for helping pitchers who have already become successful to regain that lost ability. The problem seems to be that pitchers who are developed by the Pirates rarely become successful. That suggests a problem teaching these guys to pitch at a higher level.
Pirates vs Reds - Game 2 of DH 5/27
517C71606776612122130 wrote: At least Keller rebounded with 3 good innings. but I've reached the point where I have no confidence that the Pirate organization can adequately develop pitchers. Which is very disturbing for an organization whose strategy is to win via strong pitching developed internally.
OF NH's 1st rd pitchers, Vic Black didn't make it, Cole didn't become the stud he was supposed to be until he went to a different team with a different philosophy. Taillon did well last year. Not so well the 2 years prior to that or this year prior to his injury.
Kingham was supposed to be the next great prospect. Now we cringe when they have to use him. Morton, Brault and Locke were minor league pitchers acquired in trades. Like Cole, Morton had to leave the organization to find success. Locke and Brault never became good. Glasnow was unable to develop as a Pirate and immediately found success with a new team. And the steady stream of AAA pitchers that have been recalled this year all look like AAAA pitchers. There seems to be problem with identifying good prospects and turning prospects into above average MLB pitchers. Whatever this organization is doing is not working well enough. I'll hope for the best with Keller but the pattern seems to be that these young Pirate pitchers consistently fail to develop into what they were expected to be.
IMO , the sample size is way too big to ignore. Pretty good bet that the Pirates as you say are buffoons at developing their young pitchers. However , they do seem to do well with retread pitchers.
When you combine this with a team that won't spend money and fans that won't support a non playoff team , the outlook is not too bright.
Volquez, Burnett, Liriano and Happ all had 1 or more outstanding seasons before the Pirates acquired them but none were doing well at the time they were acquired. Searage seems to have a knack for helping pitchers who have already become successful to regain that lost ability. The problem seems to be that pitchers who are developed by the Pirates rarely become successful. That suggests a problem teaching these guys to pitch at a higher level.
But is that Searage's fault? He's not working with the minor league guys every day. He gets them when they are, theoretically, a finished product. I wish Searage would work his magic on one Chris Archer.
OF NH's 1st rd pitchers, Vic Black didn't make it, Cole didn't become the stud he was supposed to be until he went to a different team with a different philosophy. Taillon did well last year. Not so well the 2 years prior to that or this year prior to his injury.
Kingham was supposed to be the next great prospect. Now we cringe when they have to use him. Morton, Brault and Locke were minor league pitchers acquired in trades. Like Cole, Morton had to leave the organization to find success. Locke and Brault never became good. Glasnow was unable to develop as a Pirate and immediately found success with a new team. And the steady stream of AAA pitchers that have been recalled this year all look like AAAA pitchers. There seems to be problem with identifying good prospects and turning prospects into above average MLB pitchers. Whatever this organization is doing is not working well enough. I'll hope for the best with Keller but the pattern seems to be that these young Pirate pitchers consistently fail to develop into what they were expected to be.
IMO , the sample size is way too big to ignore. Pretty good bet that the Pirates as you say are buffoons at developing their young pitchers. However , they do seem to do well with retread pitchers.
When you combine this with a team that won't spend money and fans that won't support a non playoff team , the outlook is not too bright.
Volquez, Burnett, Liriano and Happ all had 1 or more outstanding seasons before the Pirates acquired them but none were doing well at the time they were acquired. Searage seems to have a knack for helping pitchers who have already become successful to regain that lost ability. The problem seems to be that pitchers who are developed by the Pirates rarely become successful. That suggests a problem teaching these guys to pitch at a higher level.
But is that Searage's fault? He's not working with the minor league guys every day. He gets them when they are, theoretically, a finished product. I wish Searage would work his magic on one Chris Archer.
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steve49
Pirates vs Reds - Game 2 of DH 5/27
7B7370475174535C320 wrote: At least Keller rebounded with 3 good innings. but I've reached the point where I have no confidence that the Pirate organization can adequately develop pitchers. Which is very disturbing for an organization whose strategy is to win via strong pitching developed internally.
OF NH's 1st rd pitchers, Vic Black didn't make it, Cole didn't become the stud he was supposed to be until he went to a different team with a different philosophy. Taillon did well last year. Not so well the 2 years prior to that or this year prior to his injury.
Kingham was supposed to be the next great prospect. Now we cringe when they have to use him. Morton, Brault and Locke were minor league pitchers acquired in trades. Like Cole, Morton had to leave the organization to find success. Locke and Brault never became good. Glasnow was unable to develop as a Pirate and immediately found success with a new team. And the steady stream of AAA pitchers that have been recalled this year all look like AAAA pitchers. There seems to be problem with identifying good prospects and turning prospects into above average MLB pitchers. Whatever this organization is doing is not working well enough. I'll hope for the best with Keller but the pattern seems to be that these young Pirate pitchers consistently fail to develop into what they were expected to be.
IMO , the sample size is way too big to ignore. Pretty good bet that the Pirates as you say are buffoons at developing their young pitchers. However , they do seem to do well with retread pitchers.
When you combine this with a team that won't spend money and fans that won't support a non playoff team , the outlook is not too bright.
Volquez, Burnett, Liriano and Happ all had 1 or more outstanding seasons before the Pirates acquired them but none were doing well at the time they were acquired. Searage seems to have a knack for helping pitchers who have already become successful to regain that lost ability. The problem seems to be that pitchers who are developed by the Pirates rarely become successful. That suggests a problem teaching these guys to pitch at a higher level.
But is that Searage's fault? He's not working with the minor league guys every day. He gets them when they are, theoretically, a finished product. I wish Serge would work his magic on one Chris Archer.
Word with Glasnow was that he was thinking too much when he took the mound in MLB and Searage wanted him to speed up his delivery. In the minors it was said that he worked quickly . I can't attest to how he pitched in lower level but I watched every inning he pitched with the Pirates. It was like getting a root canal watching that. I guess he took the advice when he went to TB.
OF NH's 1st rd pitchers, Vic Black didn't make it, Cole didn't become the stud he was supposed to be until he went to a different team with a different philosophy. Taillon did well last year. Not so well the 2 years prior to that or this year prior to his injury.
Kingham was supposed to be the next great prospect. Now we cringe when they have to use him. Morton, Brault and Locke were minor league pitchers acquired in trades. Like Cole, Morton had to leave the organization to find success. Locke and Brault never became good. Glasnow was unable to develop as a Pirate and immediately found success with a new team. And the steady stream of AAA pitchers that have been recalled this year all look like AAAA pitchers. There seems to be problem with identifying good prospects and turning prospects into above average MLB pitchers. Whatever this organization is doing is not working well enough. I'll hope for the best with Keller but the pattern seems to be that these young Pirate pitchers consistently fail to develop into what they were expected to be.
IMO , the sample size is way too big to ignore. Pretty good bet that the Pirates as you say are buffoons at developing their young pitchers. However , they do seem to do well with retread pitchers.
When you combine this with a team that won't spend money and fans that won't support a non playoff team , the outlook is not too bright.
Volquez, Burnett, Liriano and Happ all had 1 or more outstanding seasons before the Pirates acquired them but none were doing well at the time they were acquired. Searage seems to have a knack for helping pitchers who have already become successful to regain that lost ability. The problem seems to be that pitchers who are developed by the Pirates rarely become successful. That suggests a problem teaching these guys to pitch at a higher level.
But is that Searage's fault? He's not working with the minor league guys every day. He gets them when they are, theoretically, a finished product. I wish Serge would work his magic on one Chris Archer.
Word with Glasnow was that he was thinking too much when he took the mound in MLB and Searage wanted him to speed up his delivery. In the minors it was said that he worked quickly . I can't attest to how he pitched in lower level but I watched every inning he pitched with the Pirates. It was like getting a root canal watching that. I guess he took the advice when he went to TB.
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steve49
Pirates vs Reds - Game 2 of DH 5/27
715C51404756410102330 wrote: At least Keller rebounded with 3 good innings. but I've reached the point where I have no confidence that the Pirate organization can adequately develop pitchers. Which is very disturbing for an organization whose strategy is to win via strong pitching developed internally.
OF NH's 1st rd pitchers, Vic Black didn't make it, Cole didn't become the stud he was supposed to be until he went to a different team with a different philosophy. Taillon did well last year. Not so well the 2 years prior to that or this year prior to his injury.
Kingham was supposed to be the next great prospect. Now we cringe when they have to use him. Morton, Brault and Locke were minor league pitchers acquired in trades. Like Cole, Morton had to leave the organization to find success. Locke and Brault never became good. Glasnow was unable to develop as a Pirate and immediately found success with a new team. And the steady stream of AAA pitchers that have been recalled this year all look like AAAA pitchers. There seems to be problem with identifying good prospects and turning prospects into above average MLB pitchers. Whatever this organization is doing is not working well enough. I'll hope for the best with Keller but the pattern seems to be that these young Pirate pitchers consistently fail to develop into what they were expected to be.
IMO , the sample size is way too big to ignore. Pretty good bet that the Pirates as you say are buffoons at developing their young pitchers. However , they do seem to do well with retread pitchers.
When you combine this with a team that won't spend money and fans that won't support a non playoff team , the outlook is not too bright.
Volquez, Burnett, Liriano and Happ all had 1 or more outstanding seasons before the Pirates acquired them but none were doing well at the time they were acquired. Searage seems to have a knack for helping pitchers who have already become successful to regain that lost ability. The problem seems to be that pitchers who are developed by the Pirates rarely become successful. That suggests a problem teaching these guys to pitch at a higher level.
I agree and it really sucks.
OF NH's 1st rd pitchers, Vic Black didn't make it, Cole didn't become the stud he was supposed to be until he went to a different team with a different philosophy. Taillon did well last year. Not so well the 2 years prior to that or this year prior to his injury.
Kingham was supposed to be the next great prospect. Now we cringe when they have to use him. Morton, Brault and Locke were minor league pitchers acquired in trades. Like Cole, Morton had to leave the organization to find success. Locke and Brault never became good. Glasnow was unable to develop as a Pirate and immediately found success with a new team. And the steady stream of AAA pitchers that have been recalled this year all look like AAAA pitchers. There seems to be problem with identifying good prospects and turning prospects into above average MLB pitchers. Whatever this organization is doing is not working well enough. I'll hope for the best with Keller but the pattern seems to be that these young Pirate pitchers consistently fail to develop into what they were expected to be.
IMO , the sample size is way too big to ignore. Pretty good bet that the Pirates as you say are buffoons at developing their young pitchers. However , they do seem to do well with retread pitchers.
When you combine this with a team that won't spend money and fans that won't support a non playoff team , the outlook is not too bright.
Volquez, Burnett, Liriano and Happ all had 1 or more outstanding seasons before the Pirates acquired them but none were doing well at the time they were acquired. Searage seems to have a knack for helping pitchers who have already become successful to regain that lost ability. The problem seems to be that pitchers who are developed by the Pirates rarely become successful. That suggests a problem teaching these guys to pitch at a higher level.
I agree and it really sucks.
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Bobster21
Pirates vs Reds - Game 2 of DH 5/27
70787B4C5A7F5857390 wrote: At least Keller rebounded with 3 good innings. but I've reached the point where I have no confidence that the Pirate organization can adequately develop pitchers. Which is very disturbing for an organization whose strategy is to win via strong pitching developed internally.
OF NH's 1st rd pitchers, Vic Black didn't make it, Cole didn't become the stud he was supposed to be until he went to a different team with a different philosophy. Taillon did well last year. Not so well the 2 years prior to that or this year prior to his injury.
Kingham was supposed to be the next great prospect. Now we cringe when they have to use him. Morton, Brault and Locke were minor league pitchers acquired in trades. Like Cole, Morton had to leave the organization to find success. Locke and Brault never became good. Glasnow was unable to develop as a Pirate and immediately found success with a new team. And the steady stream of AAA pitchers that have been recalled this year all look like AAAA pitchers. There seems to be problem with identifying good prospects and turning prospects into above average MLB pitchers. Whatever this organization is doing is not working well enough. I'll hope for the best with Keller but the pattern seems to be that these young Pirate pitchers consistently fail to develop into what they were expected to be.
IMO , the sample size is way too big to ignore. Pretty good bet that the Pirates as you say are buffoons at developing their young pitchers. However , they do seem to do well with retread pitchers.
When you combine this with a team that won't spend money and fans that won't support a non playoff team , the outlook is not too bright.
Volquez, Burnett, Liriano and Happ all had 1 or more outstanding seasons before the Pirates acquired them but none were doing well at the time they were acquired. Searage seems to have a knack for helping pitchers who have already become successful to regain that lost ability. The problem seems to be that pitchers who are developed by the Pirates rarely become successful. That suggests a problem teaching these guys to pitch at a higher level.
But is that Searage's fault? He's not working with the minor league guys every day. He gets them when they are, theoretically, a finished product. I wish Searage would work his magic on one Chris Archer.
The pitching prospects never seem to fully develop or else never had much ability to begin with. As for Searage, despite his reputation as a pitching guru, his special talent seems to be helping veteran pitchers regain abilities they had lost. He's not excelled at helping pitchers who came thru the season to reach their potential. He worked with Cole, Morton and Glasnow who were all believed to have high ceilings and all 3 had to go elsewhere to achieve reach their potential. The problem starts with identifying the pitchers to draft and then monitoring their progress at each level of the minors. That's way before Searage gets involved so it's an organizational problem. But when top prospects work with Searage to no avail and then reach another level when they leave, Searage has to take some of the blame.
OF NH's 1st rd pitchers, Vic Black didn't make it, Cole didn't become the stud he was supposed to be until he went to a different team with a different philosophy. Taillon did well last year. Not so well the 2 years prior to that or this year prior to his injury.
Kingham was supposed to be the next great prospect. Now we cringe when they have to use him. Morton, Brault and Locke were minor league pitchers acquired in trades. Like Cole, Morton had to leave the organization to find success. Locke and Brault never became good. Glasnow was unable to develop as a Pirate and immediately found success with a new team. And the steady stream of AAA pitchers that have been recalled this year all look like AAAA pitchers. There seems to be problem with identifying good prospects and turning prospects into above average MLB pitchers. Whatever this organization is doing is not working well enough. I'll hope for the best with Keller but the pattern seems to be that these young Pirate pitchers consistently fail to develop into what they were expected to be.
IMO , the sample size is way too big to ignore. Pretty good bet that the Pirates as you say are buffoons at developing their young pitchers. However , they do seem to do well with retread pitchers.
When you combine this with a team that won't spend money and fans that won't support a non playoff team , the outlook is not too bright.
Volquez, Burnett, Liriano and Happ all had 1 or more outstanding seasons before the Pirates acquired them but none were doing well at the time they were acquired. Searage seems to have a knack for helping pitchers who have already become successful to regain that lost ability. The problem seems to be that pitchers who are developed by the Pirates rarely become successful. That suggests a problem teaching these guys to pitch at a higher level.
But is that Searage's fault? He's not working with the minor league guys every day. He gets them when they are, theoretically, a finished product. I wish Searage would work his magic on one Chris Archer.
The pitching prospects never seem to fully develop or else never had much ability to begin with. As for Searage, despite his reputation as a pitching guru, his special talent seems to be helping veteran pitchers regain abilities they had lost. He's not excelled at helping pitchers who came thru the season to reach their potential. He worked with Cole, Morton and Glasnow who were all believed to have high ceilings and all 3 had to go elsewhere to achieve reach their potential. The problem starts with identifying the pitchers to draft and then monitoring their progress at each level of the minors. That's way before Searage gets involved so it's an organizational problem. But when top prospects work with Searage to no avail and then reach another level when they leave, Searage has to take some of the blame.
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Bobster21
Pirates vs Reds - Game 2 of DH 5/27
It probably would have been better to start Keller in the afternoon game instead of making him wait all day to make his debut. He seemed to be very nervous at the beginning of the game. Making him wait thru an entire afternoon game while thinking about making his debut later that evening didn't help the nerves.