775A57464150470704350 wrote: The same people who wanted Gonzalez also thought they had a wasted #1 pick in Newman who was to be groomed to fill a utility role. Gonzalez was a utility afterthought to the Indians. So they were delighted to swap him for Luplow who is hitting .271 with 11 HRs this year for them. In ST this year Hurdle said Gonzalez' fielding was erratic. So he was given the SS job. And he can't hit. This organization has no idea what it has or what it's getting from other teams. Hence the Archer trade fiasco. These people cannot build the Pirates into a winner. They have no clue and are entirely incompetent.
Sooooooo right, and the longer we keep this management team in place the deeper the hole gets.
Who Pounded The Table To Acquire Gonzalez
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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skinnyhorse
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DemDog
Who Pounded The Table To Acquire Gonzalez
434259485E1E192D0 wrote: The same people who wanted Gonzalez also thought they had a wasted #1 pick in Newman who was to be groomed to fill a utility role. Gonzalez was a utility afterthought to the Indians. So they were delighted to swap him for Luplow who is hitting .271 with 11 HRs this year for them. In ST this year Hurdle said Gonzalez' fielding was erratic. So he was given the SS job. And he can't hit. This organization has no idea what it has or what it's getting from other teams. Hence the Archer trade fiasco. These people cannot build the Pirates into a winner. They have no clue and are entirely incompetent.
You have posited this theory a bunch of times in numerous threads. You may be right. That may have been NH's theory. Or there are other possibilities. For example, the FO may have watched Newman REALLY struggle last year when he came to the majors. Anticipating that he would be a big piece of the future, but not wanting to rush him or make his the starting SS on their time over his development time, they went out and got Gonzalez to be that guy until Newman was completely ready. They didn't give up much for Gonzalez. If Gonzalez worked out, they could make him the utility guy or trade him. Just because they acquired Gonzalez and made him the starter out of ST doesn't mean they had moved on from Newman. After the really good year he has had, it is hard to remember how bad he looked at the end of last year.
Luplow is playing well, so I'm not sure I agree with you. Also there were numerous all glove SS available that didn't require giving up a useful piece to acquire.
Yes he his, but he would be nothing more than a 4th OF here. Now if you would dump Polanco then Luplow may have fit in better.
You have posited this theory a bunch of times in numerous threads. You may be right. That may have been NH's theory. Or there are other possibilities. For example, the FO may have watched Newman REALLY struggle last year when he came to the majors. Anticipating that he would be a big piece of the future, but not wanting to rush him or make his the starting SS on their time over his development time, they went out and got Gonzalez to be that guy until Newman was completely ready. They didn't give up much for Gonzalez. If Gonzalez worked out, they could make him the utility guy or trade him. Just because they acquired Gonzalez and made him the starter out of ST doesn't mean they had moved on from Newman. After the really good year he has had, it is hard to remember how bad he looked at the end of last year.
Luplow is playing well, so I'm not sure I agree with you. Also there were numerous all glove SS available that didn't require giving up a useful piece to acquire.
Yes he his, but he would be nothing more than a 4th OF here. Now if you would dump Polanco then Luplow may have fit in better.
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SammyKhalifa
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Who Pounded The Table To Acquire Gonzalez
Evaluation issues aside, I don't remember anyone being upset that we were looking for alternatives to Newman last offseason.
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Bobster21
Who Pounded The Table To Acquire Gonzalez
Possum, I agree that Luplow would have gone into the season as the 4th OFer for the Bucs. In fact, he likely would have inherited the starting OF job that fortunately went to Reynolds. (Remember, Reynolds wasn't even the 1st choice to fill in for Polanco. That was Jason Martin and Reynolds wasn't recalled until Marte also went down with an injury.) So Reynolds might still be in AAA if Luplow was still around. I don't mind that Luplow was traded. But I mind that he was traded for a marginal, unproven player to take the job intended for the unproven Newman after they were disappointed by a SSS last year. If they felt they had legit reasons not to give the SS job to Newman this year (which in hindsight casts doubt on their player evaluation skills) it might have made more sense to acquire a veteran SS whose abilities were known instead of someone like Gonzalez who was no more likely to be adequate than was Newman (and who was still given the job after an unimpressive spring).
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Bobster21
Who Pounded The Table To Acquire Gonzalez
6D5F53534775565F5257585F3E0 wrote: Evaluation issues aside, I don't remember anyone being upset that we were looking for alternatives to Newman last offseason.
As fans we want to trust the judgement of our team's leaders. So if they make a decision in the offseason that after seeing Newman start 19 games last year at SS, he wasn't up to the task of holding that job the next season, we want to believe they are savvy enough in their evaluation skills to know what they're doing. And if they replace him with a marginal utility guy from Cleveland who they say will be a good fit at SS for them, we want to believe that too. Just as we wanted to believe they must have known something about Archer to reveal that he was a lot better than his record suggested for the 2.5 years before they acquired him. So I think the evaluation issues are at the core of the mistrust many fans now feel toward those in the organization whose job it is to make those decisions about players. And I think a lot of fans who believed Gonzalez would upgrade SS and Archer would upgrade the rotation because the Pirates said so, now don't want those same people making subsequent personnel decisions to upgrade the team.
As fans we want to trust the judgement of our team's leaders. So if they make a decision in the offseason that after seeing Newman start 19 games last year at SS, he wasn't up to the task of holding that job the next season, we want to believe they are savvy enough in their evaluation skills to know what they're doing. And if they replace him with a marginal utility guy from Cleveland who they say will be a good fit at SS for them, we want to believe that too. Just as we wanted to believe they must have known something about Archer to reveal that he was a lot better than his record suggested for the 2.5 years before they acquired him. So I think the evaluation issues are at the core of the mistrust many fans now feel toward those in the organization whose job it is to make those decisions about players. And I think a lot of fans who believed Gonzalez would upgrade SS and Archer would upgrade the rotation because the Pirates said so, now don't want those same people making subsequent personnel decisions to upgrade the team.
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SammyKhalifa
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Who Pounded The Table To Acquire Gonzalez
But I don't view the Archer and Gonzalez trades as being the same at all. We traded a utility player for a utility player. Ours got hurt. I know that most of the rest of the time we give a player the benefit of the doubt after coming back from injury, as I know that just because we name a starter in April doesn't mean we will or even expect the guy to start the whole season or even a week later.
Look, I agree that our scouting, evaluation, whatever has been bad. I just think it's a pretty big stretch to include this deal in that conversation.
Look, I agree that our scouting, evaluation, whatever has been bad. I just think it's a pretty big stretch to include this deal in that conversation.
Who Pounded The Table To Acquire Gonzalez
well for Gonzalez the Pirates made it sound like he was better than any free agent shortstop out there (Freddy Gavlis anyone?) and while they may have thought he was a utility player they acted like he was going to be a regular.
They are again a victim of their own words.
At time of deal:
The Pirates are particularly intrigued by Gonzalez, a strong defensive infielder who wasn't able to play on a regular basis in Cleveland because he was blocked by All-Stars Francisco Lindor and José Ramírez. Gonzalez hasn't been tested as an everyday player in the Majors, but Huntington referred to his upside as that of a "good, regular shortstop."
Hurdle said Gonzalez will have a chance to compete for the starting job in Spring Training.
"We like the player. We like the skill set. This type of environment, this could be a really good match for both of us," Hurdle said. "I'm basically excited for what our scouts said today -- watched him at length, a volume of games -- and what our coaches have seen from him."
at Piratefest:
Instead, he responded by speaking about the team’s internal options:
“We feel like we got a young Freddy Galvis. His name is Erik Gonzalez,” Huntington said. “We feel like we got a young Jordy Mercer. His name is Kevin Newman. We feel both players can be what they were or better. There’s the really good chance they’re going to be as good if not better than what Freddy Galvis or any of the others who are out there right now or any of the players we can get in a trade right now.”
They are again a victim of their own words.
At time of deal:
The Pirates are particularly intrigued by Gonzalez, a strong defensive infielder who wasn't able to play on a regular basis in Cleveland because he was blocked by All-Stars Francisco Lindor and José Ramírez. Gonzalez hasn't been tested as an everyday player in the Majors, but Huntington referred to his upside as that of a "good, regular shortstop."
Hurdle said Gonzalez will have a chance to compete for the starting job in Spring Training.
"We like the player. We like the skill set. This type of environment, this could be a really good match for both of us," Hurdle said. "I'm basically excited for what our scouts said today -- watched him at length, a volume of games -- and what our coaches have seen from him."
at Piratefest:
Instead, he responded by speaking about the team’s internal options:
“We feel like we got a young Freddy Galvis. His name is Erik Gonzalez,” Huntington said. “We feel like we got a young Jordy Mercer. His name is Kevin Newman. We feel both players can be what they were or better. There’s the really good chance they’re going to be as good if not better than what Freddy Galvis or any of the others who are out there right now or any of the players we can get in a trade right now.”