OnlyBucs

7E4D5150535B6D504B574C4B5A56513F0 wrote: Hypothetical: say you're the Astros at the end of 1971, and you've put together a tradeable bundle of Morgan, Billingham, Menke, Geronimo, and Armbrister.  The Reds have offered Lee May, Tommy Helms, and Jim Stewart.  Could the Pirates beat that?
Not unless the Astros threw in a crystal ball. Morgan was a decent player for Houston (career .261 with career best 15 HRs, 56 RBIs and 0 GGs) who had not yet become a superstar. Billingham was nothing more than an innings eater coming off a 10-16 season. Geronimo was a good defensive OFer with no power and low BAs in a reserve role for Houston. Menke was a veteran decent fielding SS who didn't hit much and Armbrister was a fringe player who never really made it.



The Pirates had just won the WS and had Cash and Stennett at 2B forcing Maz into retirement as well as Willie Randolph in the minors. So there was no need for Morgan at that time since Morgan had not yet demonstrated abilities superior to what the Pirates' already had. Billingham would not have been an improvement over the 1972 staff of Blass, Briles, Kison, Ellis and Moose.



Morgan flourished with the Reds and achieved a higher level. But as the Pirates were coming off a championship season, there was no reason think the Astros being traded to the Reds would have been an improvement over the Pirates.

477468696A625469726E7572636F68060 wrote: Hypothetical: say you're the Astros at the end of 1971, and you've put together a tradeable bundle of Morgan, Billingham, Menke, Geronimo, and Armbrister.  The Reds have offered Lee May, Tommy Helms, and Jim Stewart.  Could the Pirates beat that?
I remember when the gucs got Burgess, Hoak and Haddix. who did the bucs give up? Was it Bob Purkey?

5967626A7961616A4A6F786B0E0 wrote: Hypothetical: say you're the Astros at the end of 1971, and you've put together a tradeable bundle of Morgan, Billingham, Menke, Geronimo, and Armbrister.  The Reds have offered Lee May, Tommy Helms, and Jim Stewart.  Could the Pirates beat that?
I remember when the gucs got Burgess, Hoak and Haddix. who did the bucs give up? Was it Bob Purkey?


Don Hoak with Smoky Burgess and Harvey Haddix to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Whammy Douglas, Jim Pendleton, John Powers, and Frank Thomas.

Thomas was the key pickup in the deal for the Reds.

13323A133830570 wrote: Hypothetical: say you're the Astros at the end of 1971, and you've put together a tradeable bundle of Morgan, Billingham, Menke, Geronimo, and Armbrister.  The Reds have offered Lee May, Tommy Helms, and Jim Stewart.  Could the Pirates beat that?
I remember when the gucs got Burgess, Hoak and Haddix. who did the bucs give up? Was it Bob Purkey?


Don Hoak with Smoky Burgess and Harvey Haddix to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Whammy Douglas, Jim Pendleton, John Powers, and Frank Thomas.

Thomas was the key pickup in the deal for the Reds.


Thank you Possum- How would you rank that deal? Obviously it got us a World Series. Was it the best?

I was looking at a package of Robertson, Cash, and Pagan as the closest matches to what the Reds gave up. Lee May had his career year in 1971, but Robertson had established himself as a slugger and had made a lot of noise in the postseason. Robertson's knees were hurting by then, but I don't think anyone anticipated how fast they would go. A lot would depend on whether the Astros were looking for veteran players, May and Helms had longer track records.

13323A133830570 wrote: Hypothetical: say you're the Astros at the end of 1971, and you've put together a tradeable bundle of Morgan, Billingham, Menke, Geronimo, and Armbrister.  The Reds have offered Lee May, Tommy Helms, and Jim Stewart.  Could the Pirates beat that?
I remember when the gucs got Burgess, Hoak and Haddix. who did the bucs give up? Was it Bob Purkey?


Don Hoak with Smoky Burgess and Harvey Haddix to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Whammy Douglas, Jim Pendleton, John Powers, and Frank Thomas.

Thomas was the key pickup in the deal for the Reds.


Yes, Thomas was the key. He had established himself as one of MLB's premier sluggers and the best player on the Pirates roster. The other 3 the Pirates gave up were throw-ins.



It was a risky move for Joe Brown because he was not getting 3 studs in exchange for his best player. Haddix was already 33 and no longer as impressive as in his first 2 full seasons when he was 20-9 and 18-13 in 1953-54. Since then, he had gone 43--44 with a 3.93 ERA. But they had no LH starters so Haddix filled that role. Burgess was 32, a 9-year veteran known for his hitting. Not great defensively and had spent the last 2 years on the bench in Cincinnati backing up Ed Bailey and pinch hitting. Hoak was 31 and a strong defensive 3Bman. But other than an outstanding season in 1957, his hitting had been below average. So even if the Bucs had given up only Thomas without the 3 throw-ins it looked like the Reds might get the better of the deal.



But Haddix, Burgess and Hoak each greatly exceeded expectations and became outstanding additions while Thomas was beset by injuries. Probably the best trade Brown ever made.



Brown believed the worst trade he ever made was dealing Bob Purkey to the Reds for sore armed LH reliever Don Gross.

1E333E2F28392E6E6D5C0 wrote: Hypothetical: say you're the Astros at the end of 1971, and you've put together a tradeable bundle of Morgan, Billingham, Menke, Geronimo, and Armbrister.  The Reds have offered Lee May, Tommy Helms, and Jim Stewart.  Could the Pirates beat that?
I remember when the gucs got Burgess, Hoak and Haddix. who did the bucs give up? Was it Bob Purkey?


Don Hoak with Smoky Burgess and Harvey Haddix to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Whammy Douglas, Jim Pendleton, John Powers, and Frank Thomas.

Thomas was the key pickup in the deal for the Reds.


Yes, Thomas was the key. He had established himself as one of MLB's premier sluggers and the best player on the Pirates roster. The other 3 the Pirates gave up were throw-ins.



It was a risky move for Joe Brown because he was not getting 3 studs in exchange for his best player. Haddix was already 33 and no longer as impressive as in his first 2 full seasons when he was 20-9 and 18-13 in 1953-54. Since then, he had gone 43--44 with a 3.93 ERA. But they had no LH starters so Haddix filled that role. Burgess was 32, a 9-year veteran known for his hitting. Not great defensively and had spent the last 2 years on the bench in Cincinnati backing up Ed Bailey and pinch hitting. Hoak was 31 and a strong defensive 3Bman. But other than an outstanding season in 1957, his hitting had been below average. So even if the Bucs had given up only Thomas without the 3 throw-ins it looked like the Reds might get the better of the deal.   



But Haddix, Burgess and Hoak each greatly exceeded expectations and became outstanding additions while Thomas was beset by injuries. Probably the best trade Brown ever made. 



Brown believed the worst trade he ever made was dealing Bob Purkey to the Reds for sore armed LH reliever Don Gross.






Brown may have thought that and seeing that Gross did almost nothing with Bucs it makes sense. IMO, his worst deal was for Doc Medich.

042924353223347477460 wrote: Hypothetical: say you're the Astros at the end of 1971, and you've put together a tradeable bundle of Morgan, Billingham, Menke, Geronimo, and Armbrister.  The Reds have offered Lee May, Tommy Helms, and Jim Stewart.  Could the Pirates beat that?
I remember when the gucs got Burgess, Hoak and Haddix. who did the bucs give up? Was it Bob Purkey?


Don Hoak with Smoky Burgess and Harvey Haddix to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Whammy Douglas, Jim Pendleton, John Powers, and Frank Thomas.

Thomas was the key pickup in the deal for the Reds.


Yes, Thomas was the key. He had established himself as one of MLB's premier sluggers and the best player on the Pirates roster. The other 3 the Pirates gave up were throw-ins.



It was a risky move for Joe Brown because he was not getting 3 studs in exchange for his best player. Haddix was already 33 and no longer as impressive as in his first 2 full seasons when he was 20-9 and 18-13 in 1953-54. Since then, he had gone 43--44 with a 3.93 ERA. But they had no LH starters so Haddix filled that role. Burgess was 32, a 9-year veteran known for his hitting. Not great defensively and had spent the last 2 years on the bench in Cincinnati backing up Ed Bailey and pinch hitting. Hoak was 31 and a strong defensive 3Bman. But other than an outstanding season in 1957, his hitting had been below average. So even if the Bucs had given up only Thomas without the 3 throw-ins it looked like the Reds might get the better of the deal.   



But Haddix, Burgess and Hoak each greatly exceeded expectations and became outstanding additions while Thomas was beset by injuries. Probably the best trade Brown ever made. 



Brown believed the worst trade he ever made was dealing Bob Purkey to the Reds for sore armed LH reliever Don Gross.




You said no left Handers. Was that before we got Vinegar Ben Mizzell

4B7570786B737378587D6A791C0 wrote: Hypothetical: say you're the Astros at the end of 1971, and you've put together a tradeable bundle of Morgan, Billingham, Menke, Geronimo, and Armbrister.  The Reds have offered Lee May, Tommy Helms, and Jim Stewart.  Could the Pirates beat that?
I remember when the gucs got Burgess, Hoak and Haddix. who did the bucs give up? Was it Bob Purkey?


Don Hoak with Smoky Burgess and Harvey Haddix to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Whammy Douglas, Jim Pendleton, John Powers, and Frank Thomas.

Thomas was the key pickup in the deal for the Reds.


Yes, Thomas was the key. He had established himself as one of MLB's premier sluggers and the best player on the Pirates roster. The other 3 the Pirates gave up were throw-ins.



It was a risky move for Joe Brown because he was not getting 3 studs in exchange for his best player. Haddix was already 33 and no longer as impressive as in his first 2 full seasons when he was 20-9 and 18-13 in 1953-54. Since then, he had gone 43--44 with a 3.93 ERA. But they had no LH starters so Haddix filled that role. Burgess was 32, a 9-year veteran known for his hitting. Not great defensively and had spent the last 2 years on the bench in Cincinnati backing up Ed Bailey and pinch hitting. Hoak was 31 and a strong defensive 3Bman. But other than an outstanding season in 1957, his hitting had been below average. So even if the Bucs had given up only Thomas without the 3 throw-ins it looked like the Reds might get the better of the deal.   



But Haddix, Burgess and Hoak each greatly exceeded expectations and became outstanding additions while Thomas was beset by injuries. Probably the best trade Brown ever made. 



Brown believed the worst trade he ever made was dealing Bob Purkey to the Reds for sore armed LH reliever Don Gross.




You said no left Handers. Was that before we got Vinegar Ben Mizzell
The 1958 team had no LH starters. Haddix was their only LH starter in 1959. Then Mizell gave them 2 in 1960.

043A3F37243C3C3717322536530 wrote: Hypothetical: say you're the Astros at the end of 1971, and you've put together a tradeable bundle of Morgan, Billingham, Menke, Geronimo, and Armbrister.  The Reds have offered Lee May, Tommy Helms, and Jim Stewart.  Could the Pirates beat that?
I remember when the gucs got Burgess, Hoak and Haddix. who did the bucs give up? Was it Bob Purkey?


Don Hoak with Smoky Burgess and Harvey Haddix to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Whammy Douglas, Jim Pendleton, John Powers, and Frank Thomas.

Thomas was the key pickup in the deal for the Reds.


Thank you Possum- How would you rank that deal? Obviously it got us a World Series. Was it the best?


I would say it was one of the best.  The Bucs gave up the modern-day version of say Vanslyke to get one helluva 3B starter who was a willey vet, an overweight catcher who could crawl out of bed and get a hit, southpaw pitcher who twirled the greatest game ever pitched the year before the WS win.  Hoak was the sparkplug of the team and the others were great compliments to some great players in their own right such as Clemente, Groat, Maz, Law, Face, and Friend.  But you look at some of the other deals Joe Brown made to put that team together.  Hal Smith, Rocky Nelson, Bill Virdon.  And the most important one was hiring Danny Murtaugh as the manager. 

I would like to hear from Bobster about what he thinks of the trade and the building of the team by Joe Brown.