Steve:
Great write up. Appreciate the details
This draft will be the biggest decision in recent memory for the Bucs
They have to hit on this number 1 pick
The quote by former GM Brown makes a lot of sense but how often does a team get a chance to draft a franchise pitcher such as Strausburg and Cole/Bauer?
Leiter intrigues me with the comparisons with Maddox
However Rocker has been compared to Clemens.
I have heard Leiter’s dad make disparaging remarks about the Pirates on ESPN. He probably does not want his son to be drafted by them. It will be interesting to follow both pitchers this spring.
Rocker - Leiter Early Comparison
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
Rocker - Leiter Early Comparison
103536362308353D3F285A0 wrote: Steve:
Great write up. Appreciate the details
This draft will be the biggest decision in recent memory for the Bucs
They have to hit on this number 1 pick
The quote by former GM Brown makes a lot of sense but how often does a team get a chance to draft a franchise pitcher such as Strausburg and Cole/Bauer?
Leiter intrigues me with the comparisons with Maddox
However Rocker has been compared to Clemens.
I have heard Leiter’s dad make disparaging remarks about the Pirates on ESPN. He probably does not want his son to be drafted by them. It will be interesting to follow both pitchers this spring.
They need to draft the one that develops the fastest. Most pitchers take several years at the MLB level to realize their potential. Throughout MLB history, many of the great pitchers took 3-4 years to hit their peak performance. Bob Gibson took 4 years. Sandy Koufax made his Dodgers debut in 1955 but didn't have a breakout season until 1961. The Pirates knew they had drafted a stud in Cole but he didn't hit his full potential until year 6 with Houston. With free agency looming after 6 years, it doesn't help the Pirates to go through a pitcher's growing pains and only get a year or so of his top level performance before he moves on. Hopefully, whichever one they select will be dominant in his 1st or 2nd year.
Great write up. Appreciate the details
This draft will be the biggest decision in recent memory for the Bucs
They have to hit on this number 1 pick
The quote by former GM Brown makes a lot of sense but how often does a team get a chance to draft a franchise pitcher such as Strausburg and Cole/Bauer?
Leiter intrigues me with the comparisons with Maddox
However Rocker has been compared to Clemens.
I have heard Leiter’s dad make disparaging remarks about the Pirates on ESPN. He probably does not want his son to be drafted by them. It will be interesting to follow both pitchers this spring.
They need to draft the one that develops the fastest. Most pitchers take several years at the MLB level to realize their potential. Throughout MLB history, many of the great pitchers took 3-4 years to hit their peak performance. Bob Gibson took 4 years. Sandy Koufax made his Dodgers debut in 1955 but didn't have a breakout season until 1961. The Pirates knew they had drafted a stud in Cole but he didn't hit his full potential until year 6 with Houston. With free agency looming after 6 years, it doesn't help the Pirates to go through a pitcher's growing pains and only get a year or so of his top level performance before he moves on. Hopefully, whichever one they select will be dominant in his 1st or 2nd year.
Rocker - Leiter Early Comparison
496469787F6E79393A0B0 wrote: Steve:
Great write up. Appreciate the details
This draft will be the biggest decision in recent memory for the Bucs
They have to hit on this number 1 pick
The quote by former GM Brown makes a lot of sense but how often does a team get a chance to draft a franchise pitcher such as Strausburg and Cole/Bauer?
Leiter intrigues me with the comparisons with Maddox
However Rocker has been compared to Clemens.
I have heard Leiter’s dad make disparaging remarks about the Pirates on ESPN. He probably does not want his son to be drafted by them. It will be interesting to follow both pitchers this spring.
They need to draft the one that develops the fastest. Most pitchers take several years at the MLB level to realize their potential. Throughout MLB history, many of the great pitchers took 3-4 years to hit their peak performance. Bob Gibson took 4 years. Sandy Koufax made his Dodgers debut in 1955 but didn't have a breakout season until 1961. The Pirates knew they had drafted a stud in Cole but he didn't hit his full potential until year 6 with Houston. With free agency looming after 6 years, it doesn't help the Pirates to go through a pitcher's growing pains and only get a year or so of his top level performance before he moves on. Hopefully, whichever one they select will be dominant in his 1st or 2nd year.
Bobster hit the nail on the head here. Koufax is a great example and there are a lot more. Jason Scmidt didn't become Koufax but he was a lot better after he left the Bucs, while Charlie Morton had different coaching his additional experience may have been just as important for his improvement.
Great write up. Appreciate the details
This draft will be the biggest decision in recent memory for the Bucs
They have to hit on this number 1 pick
The quote by former GM Brown makes a lot of sense but how often does a team get a chance to draft a franchise pitcher such as Strausburg and Cole/Bauer?
Leiter intrigues me with the comparisons with Maddox
However Rocker has been compared to Clemens.
I have heard Leiter’s dad make disparaging remarks about the Pirates on ESPN. He probably does not want his son to be drafted by them. It will be interesting to follow both pitchers this spring.
They need to draft the one that develops the fastest. Most pitchers take several years at the MLB level to realize their potential. Throughout MLB history, many of the great pitchers took 3-4 years to hit their peak performance. Bob Gibson took 4 years. Sandy Koufax made his Dodgers debut in 1955 but didn't have a breakout season until 1961. The Pirates knew they had drafted a stud in Cole but he didn't hit his full potential until year 6 with Houston. With free agency looming after 6 years, it doesn't help the Pirates to go through a pitcher's growing pains and only get a year or so of his top level performance before he moves on. Hopefully, whichever one they select will be dominant in his 1st or 2nd year.
Bobster hit the nail on the head here. Koufax is a great example and there are a lot more. Jason Scmidt didn't become Koufax but he was a lot better after he left the Bucs, while Charlie Morton had different coaching his additional experience may have been just as important for his improvement.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Rocker - Leiter Early Comparison
0F29283F29394A0 wrote: Steve:
Great write up. Appreciate the details
This draft will be the biggest decision in recent memory for the Bucs
They have to hit on this number 1 pick
The quote by former GM Brown makes a lot of sense but how often does a team get a chance to draft a franchise pitcher such as Strausburg and Cole/Bauer?
Leiter intrigues me with the comparisons with Maddox
However Rocker has been compared to Clemens.
I have heard Leiter’s dad make disparaging remarks about the Pirates on ESPN. He probably does not want his son to be drafted by them. It will be interesting to follow both pitchers this spring.
They need to draft the one that develops the fastest. Most pitchers take several years at the MLB level to realize their potential. Throughout MLB history, many of the great pitchers took 3-4 years to hit their peak performance. Bob Gibson took 4 years. Sandy Koufax made his Dodgers debut in 1955 but didn't have a breakout season until 1961. The Pirates knew they had drafted a stud in Cole but he didn't hit his full potential until year 6 with Houston. With free agency looming after 6 years, it doesn't help the Pirates to go through a pitcher's growing pains and only get a year or so of his top level performance before he moves on. Hopefully, whichever one they select will be dominant in his 1st or 2nd year.
Bobster hit the nail on the head here. Koufax is a great example and there are a lot more. Jason Scmidt didn't become Koufax but he was a lot better after he left the Bucs, while Charlie Morton had different coaching his additional experience may have been just as important for his improvement.
Cole is the poster child for me to think VERY carefully before I miss on the can’t miss position player. Cole didn’t get hurt or fail to develop, he just developed too slowly to ever make a huge difference for the Pirates. He placed Neal in a tough spot: keep him one more year, paying a significant salary, or trade him to save the salary hoping the extra year of control nets a significantly better return.
Neal gives up the year but still nets only a so-so return. The Astros and now Yankees do appreciate the Pirates developing Cole for them however.
Great write up. Appreciate the details
This draft will be the biggest decision in recent memory for the Bucs
They have to hit on this number 1 pick
The quote by former GM Brown makes a lot of sense but how often does a team get a chance to draft a franchise pitcher such as Strausburg and Cole/Bauer?
Leiter intrigues me with the comparisons with Maddox
However Rocker has been compared to Clemens.
I have heard Leiter’s dad make disparaging remarks about the Pirates on ESPN. He probably does not want his son to be drafted by them. It will be interesting to follow both pitchers this spring.
They need to draft the one that develops the fastest. Most pitchers take several years at the MLB level to realize their potential. Throughout MLB history, many of the great pitchers took 3-4 years to hit their peak performance. Bob Gibson took 4 years. Sandy Koufax made his Dodgers debut in 1955 but didn't have a breakout season until 1961. The Pirates knew they had drafted a stud in Cole but he didn't hit his full potential until year 6 with Houston. With free agency looming after 6 years, it doesn't help the Pirates to go through a pitcher's growing pains and only get a year or so of his top level performance before he moves on. Hopefully, whichever one they select will be dominant in his 1st or 2nd year.
Bobster hit the nail on the head here. Koufax is a great example and there are a lot more. Jason Scmidt didn't become Koufax but he was a lot better after he left the Bucs, while Charlie Morton had different coaching his additional experience may have been just as important for his improvement.
Cole is the poster child for me to think VERY carefully before I miss on the can’t miss position player. Cole didn’t get hurt or fail to develop, he just developed too slowly to ever make a huge difference for the Pirates. He placed Neal in a tough spot: keep him one more year, paying a significant salary, or trade him to save the salary hoping the extra year of control nets a significantly better return.
Neal gives up the year but still nets only a so-so return. The Astros and now Yankees do appreciate the Pirates developing Cole for them however.
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fjk090852-7
- Posts: 3611
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:52 pm
Rocker - Leiter Early Comparison
Rocker pitched 6 innings today, 2 hits, 1 run and 11 K's. Very good outing.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Rocker - Leiter Early Comparison
2D21207B727B737E79667C4B0 wrote: I too appreciate the detail review of the two pitchers.
Two Qs for those following the Pirates draft (I take the winter off):
1) is it a forgone conclusion that the Pirates take a pitcher at 1-1 (knowing Rocker is the leader coming into the season)?
2) is Lawler (Sp??) going to get any real consideration?
I gotta admit, I’m pretty tired of the Pirates taking a pitcher up top. I’m tired of the risk and would appreciate a legitimate 1-1 premium position player. I love the idea of a “can’t miss” SS.
I too am tired of the risk when selecting a pitcher ahead of a very good position player. Plus a team should pick the best player available even if there are many middle infielders in its System.But it does make it very interesting in 2023 if the starting pitching staff is Priester, Leiter or Rocker, Malone, Keller, and whom ever with Cederlind closing. Those pitchers could make a season very interesting.
That is a compelling argument. And I think how the entire staff lines up helps make the decision - a very good rotation with a stud added in justifies drafting the pitcher more so than an average staff adding one great arm. An average staff + 1 is still an average staff.
Two Qs for those following the Pirates draft (I take the winter off):
1) is it a forgone conclusion that the Pirates take a pitcher at 1-1 (knowing Rocker is the leader coming into the season)?
2) is Lawler (Sp??) going to get any real consideration?
I gotta admit, I’m pretty tired of the Pirates taking a pitcher up top. I’m tired of the risk and would appreciate a legitimate 1-1 premium position player. I love the idea of a “can’t miss” SS.
I too am tired of the risk when selecting a pitcher ahead of a very good position player. Plus a team should pick the best player available even if there are many middle infielders in its System.But it does make it very interesting in 2023 if the starting pitching staff is Priester, Leiter or Rocker, Malone, Keller, and whom ever with Cederlind closing. Those pitchers could make a season very interesting.
That is a compelling argument. And I think how the entire staff lines up helps make the decision - a very good rotation with a stud added in justifies drafting the pitcher more so than an average staff adding one great arm. An average staff + 1 is still an average staff.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Rocker - Leiter Early Comparison
I wonder:
Any chance the 2022 draft influences the 2021 selection? The Pirates can be almost certain of drafting within the top 3 or 4, with #1 being a real possibility. The 21 and 22 draft give the Pirates an opportunity to build a team around these two drafts. Any chance the Pirates view these two drafts together to build best team?
Any chance the 2022 draft influences the 2021 selection? The Pirates can be almost certain of drafting within the top 3 or 4, with #1 being a real possibility. The 21 and 22 draft give the Pirates an opportunity to build a team around these two drafts. Any chance the Pirates view these two drafts together to build best team?
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WildwoodDave2
Rocker - Leiter Early Comparison
507576766348757D7F681A0 wrote: Steve:
Great write up. Appreciate the details
This draft will be the biggest decision in recent memory for the Bucs
They have to hit on this number 1 pick
The quote by former GM Brown makes a lot of sense but how often does a team get a chance to draft a franchise pitcher such as Strausburg and Cole/Bauer?
Leiter intrigues me with the comparisons with Maddox
However Rocker has been compared to Clemens.
I have heard Leiter’s dad make disparaging remarks about the Pirates on ESPN. He probably does not want his son to be drafted by them. It will be interesting to follow both pitchers this spring.
When he picked them to lose 113 games, that was disparaging enough
Great write up. Appreciate the details
This draft will be the biggest decision in recent memory for the Bucs
They have to hit on this number 1 pick
The quote by former GM Brown makes a lot of sense but how often does a team get a chance to draft a franchise pitcher such as Strausburg and Cole/Bauer?
Leiter intrigues me with the comparisons with Maddox
However Rocker has been compared to Clemens.
I have heard Leiter’s dad make disparaging remarks about the Pirates on ESPN. He probably does not want his son to be drafted by them. It will be interesting to follow both pitchers this spring.
When he picked them to lose 113 games, that was disparaging enough
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WildwoodDave2
Rocker - Leiter Early Comparison
616D6C373E373F32352A30070 wrote: I too appreciate the detail review of the two pitchers.
Two Qs for those following the Pirates draft (I take the winter off):
1) is it a forgone conclusion that the Pirates take a pitcher at 1-1 (knowing Rocker is the leader coming into the season)?
2) is Lawler (Sp??) going to get any real consideration?
I gotta admit, I’m pretty tired of the Pirates taking a pitcher up top. I’m tired of the risk and would appreciate a legitimate 1-1 premium position player. I love the idea of a “can’t miss” SS.
I too am tired of the risk when selecting a pitcher ahead of a very good position player. Plus a team should pick the best player available even if there are many middle infielders in its System.But it does make it very interesting in 2023 if the starting pitching staff is Priester, Leiter or Rocker, Malone, Keller, and whom ever with Cederlind closing. Those pitchers could make a season very interesting.
I don't know if you were around when J.L.Brown was the GM. of the bucs. When asked if he had the choice of a 20 game winner or a position player who hit 300 with 25 -30 Hr's and 100 RBi's which would he want? without hesitation be said, give me the guy who plays everyday versus the guy who pitches every 5
I am an old timer, couple times I wrote letters to the Joe L Brown Show on KDKA, and they got answered. That is a good quote by the late GM. Drafting a pitcher is very risky, but in todays game, when a small market team like Pittsburgh cannot sign a top notch pitcher due to the outlandish salaries you have to give it a lot of thought as to whether to risk drafting a top pitching prospect, and hopefully before he reaches free agency he along with his teammates can get the team playing very meaningful games in October.
Yep, I remember sending in a few questions as well. One was concerning Bob Friend. In 1958 Friend went 22-14.In 1959, he went 8-19. I wrote in and questioned why he was still on the team. Brown said "be patient" The next year was 1960 -18-12 and of course a World Championship
Two Qs for those following the Pirates draft (I take the winter off):
1) is it a forgone conclusion that the Pirates take a pitcher at 1-1 (knowing Rocker is the leader coming into the season)?
2) is Lawler (Sp??) going to get any real consideration?
I gotta admit, I’m pretty tired of the Pirates taking a pitcher up top. I’m tired of the risk and would appreciate a legitimate 1-1 premium position player. I love the idea of a “can’t miss” SS.
I too am tired of the risk when selecting a pitcher ahead of a very good position player. Plus a team should pick the best player available even if there are many middle infielders in its System.But it does make it very interesting in 2023 if the starting pitching staff is Priester, Leiter or Rocker, Malone, Keller, and whom ever with Cederlind closing. Those pitchers could make a season very interesting.
I don't know if you were around when J.L.Brown was the GM. of the bucs. When asked if he had the choice of a 20 game winner or a position player who hit 300 with 25 -30 Hr's and 100 RBi's which would he want? without hesitation be said, give me the guy who plays everyday versus the guy who pitches every 5
I am an old timer, couple times I wrote letters to the Joe L Brown Show on KDKA, and they got answered. That is a good quote by the late GM. Drafting a pitcher is very risky, but in todays game, when a small market team like Pittsburgh cannot sign a top notch pitcher due to the outlandish salaries you have to give it a lot of thought as to whether to risk drafting a top pitching prospect, and hopefully before he reaches free agency he along with his teammates can get the team playing very meaningful games in October.
Yep, I remember sending in a few questions as well. One was concerning Bob Friend. In 1958 Friend went 22-14.In 1959, he went 8-19. I wrote in and questioned why he was still on the team. Brown said "be patient" The next year was 1960 -18-12 and of course a World Championship
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Bobster21
Rocker - Leiter Early Comparison
7846434B5840404B6B4E594A1D2F0 wrote:
Yep, I remember sending in a few questions as well. One was concerning Bob Friend. In 1958 Friend went 22-14.In 1959, he went 8-19. I wrote in and questioned why he was still on the team. Brown said "be patient" The next year was 1960 -18-12 and of course a World Championship
Law won the 1960 Cy Young but Friend had nearly identical stats. In fact, other than the W-L records (20-9 vs 18-12), Friend's numbers were slightly better. Friend was always the hard luck pitcher. Those 12 losses included 4 while giving up just 2 ERs in 6 or more innings and 3 while giving up 3 ERs in 7 or more innings. In Friend's 12 losses the Pirates score 20 runs (1.7 per game). And 6 of those were in one of his rare bad games. In the other 11 losses the Bucs averaged 1.2 runs per game. In 10 of his 12 losses the Pirates scored 2 runs or less including 0 or 1 run in 8 of them. Law had 3 losses where he pitched well and lost. With better run support Friend could have won 6 to 8 more games and totaled 24 to 26 wins and would have won the Cy Young as he had a lower ERA, more innings, more Ks, more starts, more shutouts and only 2 fewer CGs than Law.
Yep, I remember sending in a few questions as well. One was concerning Bob Friend. In 1958 Friend went 22-14.In 1959, he went 8-19. I wrote in and questioned why he was still on the team. Brown said "be patient" The next year was 1960 -18-12 and of course a World Championship
Law won the 1960 Cy Young but Friend had nearly identical stats. In fact, other than the W-L records (20-9 vs 18-12), Friend's numbers were slightly better. Friend was always the hard luck pitcher. Those 12 losses included 4 while giving up just 2 ERs in 6 or more innings and 3 while giving up 3 ERs in 7 or more innings. In Friend's 12 losses the Pirates score 20 runs (1.7 per game). And 6 of those were in one of his rare bad games. In the other 11 losses the Bucs averaged 1.2 runs per game. In 10 of his 12 losses the Pirates scored 2 runs or less including 0 or 1 run in 8 of them. Law had 3 losses where he pitched well and lost. With better run support Friend could have won 6 to 8 more games and totaled 24 to 26 wins and would have won the Cy Young as he had a lower ERA, more innings, more Ks, more starts, more shutouts and only 2 fewer CGs than Law.