2 things ...

[Carolina Bucco]

Couple of thoughts ...

The Pirates lost 11 of 12 in early May, and then lost 12 of 13 in June.

During those 2 stretches they were a combined 2-23.

So for the rest of the season, they are 63-52 (.548). That's hard to believe.

But I do know this ... if, instead of completing crashing and burning and losing 23 of 25 during those two streaks, if they had just been "normal bad" and gone, say, 10-15 during those stretches, they would be in wild card position right now. The two meltdowns killed the season. For the other 115 games, they've been pretty good.

My second point and the more important one ...

To me, the future of this franchise over the next 10 years hinges almost entirely on two players, and I'm very concerned about both.

1. Oneil Cruz. Will he come back next year at 100% and will he ever be the same? His greatest strength was his freak athleticism. Speed and power. I"m just worried that he'll never be the same. This was a devastating injury and a lot of times players don't come all the way back. He was Elly De La Cruz before anyone knew who Elly De La Cruz was ... and I sure hope he can return to that level but i'm a bit skeptical about it at this point.

2. Paul Skenes. I am terrified that the Pirates are going to screw him up. It's as simple as that. He's already the best pitcher in the organization by a mile. Just leave him alone and don't mess with him. Don't try to get him to change his mechanics. Don't tell him to pitch differnetly. Just leave him alone. And above all don't play head games with him next spring. Just bring him for spring training and plug him straight into the rotation. Don't send him to Indy when the seasons starts while 3 bad starters make the rotation. I have no faith that the Pirates will handle this correctly.

This franchise for the next several years really hinges on Cruz and especially Skenes, and I have a sinking feeling about how it's going to unfold ...

[Bobster]

So if they had going 10-15 instead of 2-23 in the 25 games you indicated, their record would now be 73-67 instead of the actual 65-75. However, just as they were not "2-23 Bad", neither were they "20-8' good to start the season. So if they had just got off to a reasonably good start, say 16-12 while going 10-15 in those other games, they would now be 69-71 and not contending for a WC. All we can do is look at where they are. 65-75 is not good but probably better than expected.

As for Cruz, who knows? Rennie Stennett was never the same after his broken leg. And he was already established as an outstanding hitter. But Cruz is a different person. Let's hope he has a different result.

And the Pirates have a poor track record developing pitchers. It's hard to have faith in their process.

[Surgnbuck]

The future of the franchise does not hinge on 2 guys.

With Cruz, be thankful there is the universal DH. He doesn't have to be as athletic, and can still be the impact offensively even if by chance his athleticism is gone.

With Skenes, why don't we just wait and see what happens first?

[Surgnbuck]

And the Pirates have a poor track record developing pitchers. It's hard to have faith in their process.

I'm of the camp that feels it isn't development, it's the outright acquisitions. Seems to me they have used the "throw it against the wall and see what sticks" philosophy well before this regime was around, and for the most part, every position on the team. Draft kwrap, you get kwrap.

We simply have never had enough "quality" around here to begin with. For every Glasnow, we've had a Liriano, Burnett, etc. They've turned around many pitchers, which is nice. But you can't have a full camp of "turn arounds", which is my point. They need to have actually acquired guys that were solid. Can't keep relying on Lirianos, Volquez, Happ, Burnett, etc. reclamations for starters, or Grilli, Melancon, Hanrahan. They did well drafting Hughes and Watson, but they didn't draft enough of those kinds of guys either.

If it were a developmental problem alone, we'd be seeing a slew of Glasnows succeeding elsewhere, which we're not.

[Bobster]

And the Pirates have a poor track record developing pitchers. It's hard to have faith in their process.

I'm of the camp that feels it isn't development, it's the outright acquisitions. Seems to me they have used the "throw it against the wall and see what sticks" philosophy well before this regime was around, and for the most part, every position on the team. Draft kwrap, you get kwrap.

We simply have never had enough "quality" around here to begin with. For every Glasnow, we've had a Liriano, Burnett, etc. They've turned around many pitchers, which is nice. But you can't have a full camp of "turn arounds", which is my point. They need to have actually acquired guys that were solid. Can't keep relying on Lirianos, Volquez, Happ, Burnett, etc. reclamations for starters, or Grilli, Melancon, Hanrahan. They did well drafting Hughes and Watson, but they didn't draft enough of those kinds of guys either.

If it were a developmental problem alone, we'd be seeing a slew of Glasnows succeeding elsewhere, which we're not.

I mostly agree with you. But Glasnow is not an outlier. Cole flourished after he left. They acquired Morton from Atlanta as a prospect and he flourished after he left. As did Clay Holmes. Stephenson attributes his success with TB to tips from his pitching coach there. They didn't seem to know what they had in Shane Baz and traded him. Priester showed nothing this year but it's still very early with him. Things don't look good for Contreras, who came with high hopes. Brubaker has disappointed. Kingham washed out. It took Keller 5 years to become good. So I guess it looks to me as if they don't acquire a lot of high end pitching talent and when they do, they get less out of them than they should.

[Surgnbuck]

Morton took a long time to flourish after the Pirates, to include not flourishing with the Braves to start with, are the Phillies to blame also? Cole wasn't in his prime yet, he did as well as could have been expected, he's a bad example, along with Morton. Holmes did well, and the Pirates knew he was good, but he couldn't find the strike zone, and were able to acquire two guys who at the time looked like a win win trade. Glasnow did well. How about giving Stephenson some time first? I already addressed that one, he did well last year, he was injured for us this year. Can't discount that being part of his problem either.

Tell me what Baz has done before his name is brought in. You've given Glasnow, Holmes, and Stephenson as guys who turned it around, I'm not accepting Cole and Morton.

do you want me to list all the guys the Pirates have turned around? Seriously, it isn't development, it's acquisition.

[PooperScooper !]

Redsox and Toronto figured it out and BC was let go.

[Bobster]

You know, Surg, you seem to have a bug up your butt for anything I say. I've noticed it for a while but I've tried to engage in discussions anyway. But it's tiresome. So we're going to have to agree to disagree. Apparently, on just about everything.

[Doc]

Couple of thoughts ...

The Pirates lost 11 of 12 in early May, and then lost 12 of 13 in June.

During those 2 stretches they were a combined 2-23.

So for the rest of the season, they are 63-52 (.548). That's hard to believe.

But I do know this ... if, instead of completing crashing and burning and losing 23 of 25 during those two streaks, if they had just been "normal bad" and gone, say, 10-15 during those stretches, they would be in wild card position right now. The two meltdowns killed the season. For the other 115 games, they've been pretty good.

My second point and the more important one ...

To me, the future of this franchise over the next 10 years hinges almost entirely on two players, and I'm very concerned about both.

1. Oneil Cruz. Will he come back next year at 100% and will he ever be the same? His greatest strength was his freak athleticism. Speed and power. I"m just worried that he'll never be the same. This was a devastating injury and a lot of times players don't come all the way back. He was Elly De La Cruz before anyone knew who Elly De La Cruz was ... and I sure hope he can return to that level but i'm a bit skeptical about it at this point.

2. Paul Skenes. I am terrified that the Pirates are going to screw him up. It's as simple as that. He's already the best pitcher in the organization by a mile. Just leave him alone and don't mess with him. Don't try to get him to change his mechanics. Don't tell him to pitch differnetly. Just leave him alone. And above all don't play head games with him next spring. Just bring him for spring training and plug him straight into the rotation. Don't send him to Indy when the seasons starts while 3 bad starters make the rotation. I have no faith that the Pirates will handle this correctly.

This franchise for the next several years really hinges on Cruz and especially Skenes, and I have a sinking feeling about how it's going to unfold ...

When you say, “the next 10 years”, I have to counter with, “hold your horses”. Both Cruz and Skenes, if they become the players we hope they become, will likely be playing elsewhere half way through those next 10 years. They’ll price themselves out of Pittsburgh.

[NewMexicoLobo]

With Cruz, be thankful there is the universal DH. He doesn't have to be as athletic, and can still be the impact offensively even if by chance his athleticism is gone.

Hell, at worst they could put him at 1B. That wouldn't be a bad move anyway. They could negate his throwing issues with that move.

He could still mash.