714650505C65565F5C330 wrote: For me, it isn't even McGuire and Ramirez specifically - I have some doubts about both in terms of their eventual success in MLB. But that really isn't even the point here.
The most obvious issue is that you've had two golden opportunities at the trade deadline the past two seasons to add to a team that had championship potential and NH was unwilling to part with any prospects of any significance in order to get legitimate MLB talent to potentially put them over the top. He then turns around and deals two fringe top-100 prospects in all of MLB in what amounts to a pure salary dump? It is just totally backward in terms of what the priorities should be for any MLB franchise.
The second issue is that you aren't even dumping all that much salary in today's MLB. Pitching is extremely expensive and betting $13 million over one season that someone like Francisco Liriano who had three excellent seasons in a row prior to 2016 will bounce back is something that a true contender should be willing to do. It isn't like they are going to sign a comparable talent in free agency, because they never have before.
The third issue is understanding opportunity cost as it relates to any legitimate prospects at this stage of their development and what is sacrificed when you either (A) fail to trade prospects at a point of relatively high value (because most prospects do not fully pan out, if at all) or (B) trade them in a deal that doesn't bring back actual present value to your baseball team (which this deal quite obviously does not). People who just focus on the flaws of McGuire and Ramirez and the likelihood of their eventual MLB success totally miss the point of their current value as prospects and trade chips. They may absolutely turn out to be no loss whatsoever (although I would question anybody with significant confidence in this proposition - look at Alex Dickerson and Robbie Grossman right now), but that still doesn't take into account the opportunity cost of not utilizing their current value to bring back something more substantive to help the Pirates.
No matter how good Drew Hutchison may turn out to be, and he does profile as somebody that Ray Searage might have some success in "fixing", this trade is unbelievably flawed in both theory and execution and should be extremely disappointing for any fan of the Pirates.
Ding ding ding! Thank you! You nailed this 100% and I hope people read your post.
1) the continuing failure to take that "last step or two" to give this team the best opportunity to win a WS when it was almost there for the taking, juxtaposed against the total salary dump this year when the Pirates were all of 2 games out....
2) the reality that for this organization we simply don't play the game of MLB economics with anyone except maybe the Rays (one more year of a $13M contract causes the Pirates to give up 2 top 10 prospects is literally an unheard of exchange in MLB)...
3) effectively using the assets we do accumulate to give the team even one more piece...
These three realities can make a diehard fan go crazy; it's all of these things over the past year or so not just this mess of a weekend. We were so close....
Last Minute Trade Buzz
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UtahPirate
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Last Minute Trade Buzz
6A4F5C49555E555451593D0 wrote: I've been trying to say that the Melancon trade was terrible for morale reasons. You just don't weaken your team when you are not out of the playoff hunt. People can say they weren't playing that great and they wouldn't have made the playoffs anyway but what they would have done is conjecture and completely irrelevant to the main issue. I guarantee you that every guy in that clubhouse thought they could win the world series especially if they got an extra player or two. Instead, they consciously weakened the team this year. 2016 Rivero is not as good as 2016 Melancon. Everyone knows that. I suspect that the Liriano desperation trade was a result of a hugely unpopular move in the clubhouse. He was probably vocal and then decided he could no longer speak English. The Pirates quit on the season no matter how much you want to approve the return. The move has had short term and will have long term repercussions.
If every guy in the clubhouse was thinking they needed another guy or two to win the World Series then they were done already.
If this is players attitude then they should be thrilled. The GM got rid of the two worst starters on the team. Now perhaps they won't be playing from behind every game.
This team has two huge issues: terrible starting pitching (addressed or at least changed) and terrible approaches at the plate recently (bullpen has gotten better).
These trades haven't hurt this teams chances in 2016.
You have to wonder if the Liriano trade wasn't huge for morale reasons as well. Didn't he do his last interview in Spanish, which is the first time he'd done that this year? What was that all about?
Is it down because of Melancon? He was open during the All-Star break that he wasn't sure he'd finish the year as a Pirate. I have a hard time believing there were no club expectations of the trade. They tried to move him all winter and never got an offer they seemed to want.
Is it up because Liriano was causing trouble? What was the root of the desperation that was so out-of-pattern for NH in the Blue Jay trade that has us all PO'd?
I don't think any of us has a real finger on the pulse of the clubhouse.
No, I'm not in the clubhouse, but I can successfully put two and two together. The Liriano move was uncharacteristic because it wasn't anticipated. Huntington was asked specifically by Brown whether the Melancon move might have a negative effect on the clubhouse (which I had already predicted would occur). All Huntington could reply was "Well, I hope they understand...." They play Saturday in a fog with their normally gregarious manager having a permascowl on his face. Liriano suddenly refuses to speak English after his start which was characteristically crappy. He is clearly filtering questions and delaying responses. I'm guessing he was vocal in the clubhouse and was already told to be quiet. The situation had the ability to get out of hand unexpectedly to the point that he had to be moved. Because he has sucked and nobody wants his contract, we had had to overpay in prospects to entice someone to take him off our hands.
That is interesting and does provide a backstory that I believe must be there. Under this scenario, who wants Liriano gone the most -- the FO or Hurdle?
If every guy in the clubhouse was thinking they needed another guy or two to win the World Series then they were done already.
If this is players attitude then they should be thrilled. The GM got rid of the two worst starters on the team. Now perhaps they won't be playing from behind every game.
This team has two huge issues: terrible starting pitching (addressed or at least changed) and terrible approaches at the plate recently (bullpen has gotten better).
These trades haven't hurt this teams chances in 2016.
You have to wonder if the Liriano trade wasn't huge for morale reasons as well. Didn't he do his last interview in Spanish, which is the first time he'd done that this year? What was that all about?
Is it down because of Melancon? He was open during the All-Star break that he wasn't sure he'd finish the year as a Pirate. I have a hard time believing there were no club expectations of the trade. They tried to move him all winter and never got an offer they seemed to want.
Is it up because Liriano was causing trouble? What was the root of the desperation that was so out-of-pattern for NH in the Blue Jay trade that has us all PO'd?
I don't think any of us has a real finger on the pulse of the clubhouse.
No, I'm not in the clubhouse, but I can successfully put two and two together. The Liriano move was uncharacteristic because it wasn't anticipated. Huntington was asked specifically by Brown whether the Melancon move might have a negative effect on the clubhouse (which I had already predicted would occur). All Huntington could reply was "Well, I hope they understand...." They play Saturday in a fog with their normally gregarious manager having a permascowl on his face. Liriano suddenly refuses to speak English after his start which was characteristically crappy. He is clearly filtering questions and delaying responses. I'm guessing he was vocal in the clubhouse and was already told to be quiet. The situation had the ability to get out of hand unexpectedly to the point that he had to be moved. Because he has sucked and nobody wants his contract, we had had to overpay in prospects to entice someone to take him off our hands.
That is interesting and does provide a backstory that I believe must be there. Under this scenario, who wants Liriano gone the most -- the FO or Hurdle?
Last Minute Trade Buzz
595E48404E591E126B4C464A4247054844462B0 wrote: I've been trying to say that the Melancon trade was terrible for morale reasons. You just don't weaken your team when you are not out of the playoff hunt. People can say they weren't playing that great and they wouldn't have made the playoffs anyway but what they would have done is conjecture and completely irrelevant to the main issue. I guarantee you that every guy in that clubhouse thought they could win the world series especially if they got an extra player or two. Instead, they consciously weakened the team this year. 2016 Rivero is not as good as 2016 Melancon. Everyone knows that. I suspect that the Liriano desperation trade was a result of a hugely unpopular move in the clubhouse. He was probably vocal and then decided he could no longer speak English. The Pirates quit on the season no matter how much you want to approve the return. The move has had short term and will have long term repercussions.
If every guy in the clubhouse was thinking they needed another guy or two to win the World Series then they were done already.
If this is players attitude then they should be thrilled. The GM got rid of the two worst starters on the team. Now perhaps they won't be playing from behind every game.
This team has two huge issues: terrible starting pitching (addressed or at least changed) and terrible approaches at the plate recently (bullpen has gotten better).
These trades haven't hurt this teams chances in 2016.
You have to wonder if the Liriano trade wasn't huge for morale reasons as well. Didn't he do his last interview in Spanish, which is the first time he'd done that this year? What was that all about?
Is it down because of Melancon? He was open during the All-Star break that he wasn't sure he'd finish the year as a Pirate. I have a hard time believing there were no club expectations of the trade. They tried to move him all winter and never got an offer they seemed to want.
Is it up because Liriano was causing trouble? What was the root of the desperation that was so out-of-pattern for NH in the Blue Jay trade that has us all PO'd?
I don't think any of us has a real finger on the pulse of the clubhouse.
We know very little about the clubhouse but it was not hard to see that the dugout in Milwaukee was very different, from Clint on down. The play on the field was rotten. Frankie forgets how to speak English....
I don't discount Wrathchild's position that trading Malancon could have had a significant negative impact on the team - there is no way to see that trade as anything but a punt on this season. Seems like most people on here have no problem with moving Malancon. For me, there is no chance I move such a critical piece (and clubhouse presence) for another relief pitcher. Maybe you gotta do a deal if it looks like a Chapman return. But this was a middling return at a critical time.
Something was definitely up in Milwaukee. Who's to say we didn't drop 3 games for some external reason? The not so subtle message from the FO could have been a factor.
If we were ten games over .500, I have a problem with dealing Melancon. If we are showing any sign of life from the guys who needed to carry us, I have a problem with dealing Melancon.
At the end of the day, we were three games over after two thirds of the season. We had scored just 35 runs in the previous ten games with 8 of them being in two innings against the Mariners. At that point, you are who your record says you are.
If every guy in the clubhouse was thinking they needed another guy or two to win the World Series then they were done already.
If this is players attitude then they should be thrilled. The GM got rid of the two worst starters on the team. Now perhaps they won't be playing from behind every game.
This team has two huge issues: terrible starting pitching (addressed or at least changed) and terrible approaches at the plate recently (bullpen has gotten better).
These trades haven't hurt this teams chances in 2016.
You have to wonder if the Liriano trade wasn't huge for morale reasons as well. Didn't he do his last interview in Spanish, which is the first time he'd done that this year? What was that all about?
Is it down because of Melancon? He was open during the All-Star break that he wasn't sure he'd finish the year as a Pirate. I have a hard time believing there were no club expectations of the trade. They tried to move him all winter and never got an offer they seemed to want.
Is it up because Liriano was causing trouble? What was the root of the desperation that was so out-of-pattern for NH in the Blue Jay trade that has us all PO'd?
I don't think any of us has a real finger on the pulse of the clubhouse.
We know very little about the clubhouse but it was not hard to see that the dugout in Milwaukee was very different, from Clint on down. The play on the field was rotten. Frankie forgets how to speak English....
I don't discount Wrathchild's position that trading Malancon could have had a significant negative impact on the team - there is no way to see that trade as anything but a punt on this season. Seems like most people on here have no problem with moving Malancon. For me, there is no chance I move such a critical piece (and clubhouse presence) for another relief pitcher. Maybe you gotta do a deal if it looks like a Chapman return. But this was a middling return at a critical time.
Something was definitely up in Milwaukee. Who's to say we didn't drop 3 games for some external reason? The not so subtle message from the FO could have been a factor.
If we were ten games over .500, I have a problem with dealing Melancon. If we are showing any sign of life from the guys who needed to carry us, I have a problem with dealing Melancon.
At the end of the day, we were three games over after two thirds of the season. We had scored just 35 runs in the previous ten games with 8 of them being in two innings against the Mariners. At that point, you are who your record says you are.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
767D75797C7D662325526B737A7D7D3C717D120 wrote: It will come down to 2017 and who is better: Liriano or Hutchison.
I don't know why Reese McGuire was traded. Nor do I know why he was such a late addition (reported late). I thought he would have more value since he was a first round pick.
I am surprised that Liriano was traded. Not because of his production, but because the Pirates will have no veterans going into the 2017 rotation besides Cole.
If McGuire wasn't involved, I wouldn't have minded. I thought he had more value. Hopefully, another trade happens for a top starter or they learned their lesson not signing someone entering the 2017 season.
I did predict a Starter and Bullpen arm at the deadline. I just didn't think Liriano and Melancon would be moved too.
Overall, I don't think the team is much worse (Melancon) than it was yesterday. I just wonder what the rotation will be going forward?
overall, I agree with your thoughts there. The team isn't that much worse today than it was before Melancon and Liriano were traded. They're worse, with less upside for next year, but not by much.
The cost of getting just a little bit worse and saving a WHOLE LOT MORE money was extraordinary in prospects. The deal is embarrassing... just packaging Ramirez with Liriano to dump salary... to include McGuire in order to return a suspect starter already approaching his arb 2 is outright insanity.
All I ever ask is that the insanity goes both ways. Stop dumping meaningless salary (to everyone except Bob), and start acquiring talent.
I don't know why Reese McGuire was traded. Nor do I know why he was such a late addition (reported late). I thought he would have more value since he was a first round pick.
I am surprised that Liriano was traded. Not because of his production, but because the Pirates will have no veterans going into the 2017 rotation besides Cole.
If McGuire wasn't involved, I wouldn't have minded. I thought he had more value. Hopefully, another trade happens for a top starter or they learned their lesson not signing someone entering the 2017 season.
I did predict a Starter and Bullpen arm at the deadline. I just didn't think Liriano and Melancon would be moved too.
Overall, I don't think the team is much worse (Melancon) than it was yesterday. I just wonder what the rotation will be going forward?
overall, I agree with your thoughts there. The team isn't that much worse today than it was before Melancon and Liriano were traded. They're worse, with less upside for next year, but not by much.
The cost of getting just a little bit worse and saving a WHOLE LOT MORE money was extraordinary in prospects. The deal is embarrassing... just packaging Ramirez with Liriano to dump salary... to include McGuire in order to return a suspect starter already approaching his arb 2 is outright insanity.
All I ever ask is that the insanity goes both ways. Stop dumping meaningless salary (to everyone except Bob), and start acquiring talent.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
In summary, we aren't even trying. We just aren't trying. The priorities of Ownership and (by extension) the FO are not aligned with winning. Winning is important, but not important enough to choose not to operate with INSANE PROFIT MARGINS.
Margins that have to be among the highest in baseball. Do the math. Look at the payroll numbers. Look at the revenue sharing numbers. Look at the attendance and average ticket prices.
This organization is without a doubt rolling in doe. And still trading top ten prospects for some salary relief.
Margins that have to be among the highest in baseball. Do the math. Look at the payroll numbers. Look at the revenue sharing numbers. Look at the attendance and average ticket prices.
This organization is without a doubt rolling in doe. And still trading top ten prospects for some salary relief.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
022734213D363D3C3931550 wrote: I've been trying to say that the Melancon trade was terrible for morale reasons. You just don't weaken your team when you are not out of the playoff hunt. People can say they weren't playing that great and they wouldn't have made the playoffs anyway but what they would have done is conjecture and completely irrelevant to the main issue. I guarantee you that every guy in that clubhouse thought they could win the world series especially if they got an extra player or two. Instead, they consciously weakened the team this year. 2016 Rivero is not as good as 2016 Melancon. Everyone knows that. I suspect that the Liriano desperation trade was a result of a hugely unpopular move in the clubhouse. He was probably vocal and then decided he could no longer speak English. The Pirates quit on the season no matter how much you want to approve the return. The move has had short term and will have long term repercussions.
If every guy in the clubhouse was thinking they needed another guy or two to win the World Series then they were done already.
If this is players attitude then they should be thrilled. The GM got rid of the two worst starters on the team. Now perhaps they won't be playing from behind every game.
This team has two huge issues: terrible starting pitching (addressed or at least changed) and terrible approaches at the plate recently (bullpen has gotten better).
These trades haven't hurt this teams chances in 2016.
You have to wonder if the Liriano trade wasn't huge for morale reasons as well. Didn't he do his last interview in Spanish, which is the first time he'd done that this year? What was that all about?
Is it down because of Melancon? He was open during the All-Star break that he wasn't sure he'd finish the year as a Pirate. I have a hard time believing there were no club expectations of the trade. They tried to move him all winter and never got an offer they seemed to want.
Is it up because Liriano was causing trouble? What was the root of the desperation that was so out-of-pattern for NH in the Blue Jay trade that has us all PO'd?
I don't think any of us has a real finger on the pulse of the clubhouse.
No, I'm not in the clubhouse, but I can successfully put two and two together. The Liriano move was uncharacteristic because it wasn't anticipated. Huntington was asked specifically by Brown whether the Melancon move might have a negative effect on the clubhouse (which I had already predicted would occur). All Huntington could reply was "Well, I hope they understand...." They play Saturday in a fog with their normally gregarious manager having a permascowl on his face. Liriano suddenly refuses to speak English after his start which was characteristically crappy. He is clearly filtering questions and delaying responses. I'm guessing he was vocal in the clubhouse and was already told to be quiet. The situation had the ability to get out of hand unexpectedly to the point that he had to be moved. Because he has sucked and nobody wants his contract, we had had to overpay in prospects to entice someone to take him off our hands.
The more I reflect on your post, the more sense it makes. I also thought something really weird was up when Liriano, otherwise a reasonably eloquent English speaker, used the interpreter Sunday. (One of the beat writers tried to explain it by saying Liriano had some thoughts he couldn't articulate properly in English -- which right away smelled like a load of BS because the interpreter then has to translate those thoughts into English.)
If every guy in the clubhouse was thinking they needed another guy or two to win the World Series then they were done already.
If this is players attitude then they should be thrilled. The GM got rid of the two worst starters on the team. Now perhaps they won't be playing from behind every game.
This team has two huge issues: terrible starting pitching (addressed or at least changed) and terrible approaches at the plate recently (bullpen has gotten better).
These trades haven't hurt this teams chances in 2016.
You have to wonder if the Liriano trade wasn't huge for morale reasons as well. Didn't he do his last interview in Spanish, which is the first time he'd done that this year? What was that all about?
Is it down because of Melancon? He was open during the All-Star break that he wasn't sure he'd finish the year as a Pirate. I have a hard time believing there were no club expectations of the trade. They tried to move him all winter and never got an offer they seemed to want.
Is it up because Liriano was causing trouble? What was the root of the desperation that was so out-of-pattern for NH in the Blue Jay trade that has us all PO'd?
I don't think any of us has a real finger on the pulse of the clubhouse.
No, I'm not in the clubhouse, but I can successfully put two and two together. The Liriano move was uncharacteristic because it wasn't anticipated. Huntington was asked specifically by Brown whether the Melancon move might have a negative effect on the clubhouse (which I had already predicted would occur). All Huntington could reply was "Well, I hope they understand...." They play Saturday in a fog with their normally gregarious manager having a permascowl on his face. Liriano suddenly refuses to speak English after his start which was characteristically crappy. He is clearly filtering questions and delaying responses. I'm guessing he was vocal in the clubhouse and was already told to be quiet. The situation had the ability to get out of hand unexpectedly to the point that he had to be moved. Because he has sucked and nobody wants his contract, we had had to overpay in prospects to entice someone to take him off our hands.
The more I reflect on your post, the more sense it makes. I also thought something really weird was up when Liriano, otherwise a reasonably eloquent English speaker, used the interpreter Sunday. (One of the beat writers tried to explain it by saying Liriano had some thoughts he couldn't articulate properly in English -- which right away smelled like a load of BS because the interpreter then has to translate those thoughts into English.)
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3630
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Last Minute Trade Buzz
7275636B6572353940676D61696C2E636F6D000 wrote:
Something was definitely up in Milwaukee. Who's to say we didn't drop 3 games for some external reason? The not so subtle message from the FO could have been a factor.
I mean, maybe . . .
. . . but what was up every other time we've played in Milwaukee? :-/
Something was definitely up in Milwaukee. Who's to say we didn't drop 3 games for some external reason? The not so subtle message from the FO could have been a factor.
I mean, maybe . . .
. . . but what was up every other time we've played in Milwaukee? :-/
Last Minute Trade Buzz
Well the trades seem to be working out so far. Nice job Neil! 
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rucker59@gmail.com
Last Minute Trade Buzz
102D2A302D2A440 wrote: .
.
If we were ten games over .500, I have a problem with dealing Melancon. If we are showing any sign of life from the guys who needed to carry us, I have a problem with dealing Melancon.
At the end of the day, we were three games over after two thirds of the season. We had scored just 35 runs in the previous ten games with 8 of them being in two innings against the Mariners. At that point, you are who your record says you are.
I'm wondering if the past three seasons have confused us - the WC very likely won't require 90+ wins this year.
I get what you're saying, I really do. This does not look like a playoff team. But...Amazing, as of today they are still within 2 1/2 games of the 2nd WC. Despite the awful weekend they lost only a 1/2 game.
Somebody's gonna finish strong enough to win that spot, we're one of three that have a very real chance. We have not played like a playoff team, I agree with you. But apparently none of the other 3 have either.
I still think this team has a ton of potential with just one or two solid moves and bringing up some rookies.
The Marlins and Mets realize they've got a real chance so they made real acquisitions to try and make the team better. I think the Pirates can be better then either the Mets or Marlins.
Or I guess I should say I think the Pirates COULD have been better - forgetting the trade deadline, our response for the final push is to reinsert Locke and Vogelsong. Does that make any sense for a team 2 1/2 games out? Even if you don't believe we're good enough don't you still want to give ourselves the opportunity to slip in? It would hardly be a crazy thing if this team were to catch fire. (Look at the Rookies who have managed to get back into the race). Why toss the towel with 55+ games?
.
If we were ten games over .500, I have a problem with dealing Melancon. If we are showing any sign of life from the guys who needed to carry us, I have a problem with dealing Melancon.
At the end of the day, we were three games over after two thirds of the season. We had scored just 35 runs in the previous ten games with 8 of them being in two innings against the Mariners. At that point, you are who your record says you are.
I'm wondering if the past three seasons have confused us - the WC very likely won't require 90+ wins this year.
I get what you're saying, I really do. This does not look like a playoff team. But...Amazing, as of today they are still within 2 1/2 games of the 2nd WC. Despite the awful weekend they lost only a 1/2 game.
Somebody's gonna finish strong enough to win that spot, we're one of three that have a very real chance. We have not played like a playoff team, I agree with you. But apparently none of the other 3 have either.
I still think this team has a ton of potential with just one or two solid moves and bringing up some rookies.
The Marlins and Mets realize they've got a real chance so they made real acquisitions to try and make the team better. I think the Pirates can be better then either the Mets or Marlins.
Or I guess I should say I think the Pirates COULD have been better - forgetting the trade deadline, our response for the final push is to reinsert Locke and Vogelsong. Does that make any sense for a team 2 1/2 games out? Even if you don't believe we're good enough don't you still want to give ourselves the opportunity to slip in? It would hardly be a crazy thing if this team were to catch fire. (Look at the Rookies who have managed to get back into the race). Why toss the towel with 55+ games?
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Last Minute Trade Buzz
487472746F667069070 wrote: Well the trades seem to be working out so far. Nice job Neil!
2.5 back from Wild Card.
2.5 back from Wild Card.