4C697A6F73787372777F1B0 wrote: I've been trying to say that the Melancon trade was terrible for morale reasons. You just don't weaken your team when you are not out of the playoff hunt. People can say they weren't playing that great and they wouldn't have made the playoffs anyway but what they would have done is conjecture and completely irrelevant to the main issue. I guarantee you that every guy in that clubhouse thought they could win the world series especially if they got an extra player or two. Instead, they consciously weakened the team this year. 2016 Rivero is not as good as 2016 Melancon. Everyone knows that. I suspect that the Liriano desperation trade was a result of a hugely unpopular move in the clubhouse. He was probably vocal and then decided he could no longer speak English. The Pirates quit on the season no matter how much you want to approve the return. The move has had short term and will have long term repercussions.
If every guy in the clubhouse was thinking they needed another guy or two to win the World Series then they were done already.
If this is players attitude then they should be thrilled. The GM got rid of the two worst starters on the team. Now perhaps they won't be playing from behind every game.
This team has two huge issues: terrible starting pitching (addressed or at least changed) and terrible approaches at the plate recently (bullpen has gotten better).
These trades haven't hurt this teams chances in 2016.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
-
steve49
Last Minute Trade Buzz
7944435944432D0 wrote: I've been trying to say that the Melancon trade was terrible for morale reasons. You just don't weaken your team when you are not out of the playoff hunt. People can say they weren't playing that great and they wouldn't have made the playoffs anyway but what they would have done is conjecture and completely irrelevant to the main issue. I guarantee you that every guy in that clubhouse thought they could win the world series especially if they got an extra player or two. Instead, they consciously weakened the team this year. 2016 Rivero is not as good as 2016 Melancon. Everyone knows that. I suspect that the Liriano desperation trade was a result of a hugely unpopular move in the clubhouse. He was probably vocal and then decided he could no longer speak English. The Pirates quit on the season no matter how much you want to approve the return. The move has had short term and will have long term repercussions.
If every guy in the clubhouse was thinking they needed another guy or two to win the World Series then they were done already.
If this is players attitude then they should be thrilled. The GM got rid of the two worst starters on the team. Now perhaps they won't be playing from behind every game.
This team has two huge issues: terrible starting pitching (addressed or at least changed) and terrible approaches at the plate recently (bullpen has gotten better).
These trades haven't hurt this teams chances in 2016.
That's a little debatable as Melanin was a effective closer. But I think the issue is not really the Pirates "chances in 2016." Those were crappy to begin with . I do agree that the Pirates succeeded in getting rid of 2 bad starters like you say . What me and many are upset about is the "unorthodox " manner in which it was done.
If every guy in the clubhouse was thinking they needed another guy or two to win the World Series then they were done already.
If this is players attitude then they should be thrilled. The GM got rid of the two worst starters on the team. Now perhaps they won't be playing from behind every game.
This team has two huge issues: terrible starting pitching (addressed or at least changed) and terrible approaches at the plate recently (bullpen has gotten better).
These trades haven't hurt this teams chances in 2016.
That's a little debatable as Melanin was a effective closer. But I think the issue is not really the Pirates "chances in 2016." Those were crappy to begin with . I do agree that the Pirates succeeded in getting rid of 2 bad starters like you say . What me and many are upset about is the "unorthodox " manner in which it was done.
-
JollyRoger
- Posts: 1469
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:31 pm
Last Minute Trade Buzz
Wow! I was camping over the weekend. No cell, no internet so I did not hear about the Brewer sweep or the trades.
I agree with VA Pirate, Bobster & Steady. This was epic salary dump. Did the trades improve the Pirates this year.....No. Did they improve them in the future.....No.
1) Niese for Bastardo was fine. The others were brain freezes.
2) Why get rid of Melancon when you are still in the playoff race?
Secondly, I don't think the return was significant. People seem to forget that Melancon was an All Star. Good closers which Melancon has been get paid big bucks. Nutting just refuses to pay market value. Watson may indeed do well in the closers roll, but he has been mortal this year.
3)Nova?Why? What's the point?. Does he make the Bucs better....No. 2 month rental that will have no impact makes absolutely no sense. A real head scratcher.
4) The Liriano trade. This is Aramis Ramirez part 2. Total salary dump. I have always been a Nutting hater and will continue to be. However I have supported FC and NH. This trade was NH impersonating Cam Bonifay and Dave Littlefield. This makes NH into a hypocrite. How can you talk about building up the farm system and then trade 2 of your top 10 prospects for cash. It's a sad state of affairs when the Bucs have to use their top prospects to rid themselves of a bad contract. This represents a total betrayal to the loyal fan base.
Message to Nutting:
If you can't afford to an average ML team payroll; then please sell the team to someone who will
I agree with VA Pirate, Bobster & Steady. This was epic salary dump. Did the trades improve the Pirates this year.....No. Did they improve them in the future.....No.
1) Niese for Bastardo was fine. The others were brain freezes.
2) Why get rid of Melancon when you are still in the playoff race?
Secondly, I don't think the return was significant. People seem to forget that Melancon was an All Star. Good closers which Melancon has been get paid big bucks. Nutting just refuses to pay market value. Watson may indeed do well in the closers roll, but he has been mortal this year.
3)Nova?Why? What's the point?. Does he make the Bucs better....No. 2 month rental that will have no impact makes absolutely no sense. A real head scratcher.
4) The Liriano trade. This is Aramis Ramirez part 2. Total salary dump. I have always been a Nutting hater and will continue to be. However I have supported FC and NH. This trade was NH impersonating Cam Bonifay and Dave Littlefield. This makes NH into a hypocrite. How can you talk about building up the farm system and then trade 2 of your top 10 prospects for cash. It's a sad state of affairs when the Bucs have to use their top prospects to rid themselves of a bad contract. This represents a total betrayal to the loyal fan base.
Message to Nutting:
If you can't afford to an average ML team payroll; then please sell the team to someone who will
-
UtahPirate
- Posts: 582
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:36 pm
Last Minute Trade Buzz
14292E34292E400 wrote: I've been trying to say that the Melancon trade was terrible for morale reasons. You just don't weaken your team when you are not out of the playoff hunt. People can say they weren't playing that great and they wouldn't have made the playoffs anyway but what they would have done is conjecture and completely irrelevant to the main issue. I guarantee you that every guy in that clubhouse thought they could win the world series especially if they got an extra player or two. Instead, they consciously weakened the team this year. 2016 Rivero is not as good as 2016 Melancon. Everyone knows that. I suspect that the Liriano desperation trade was a result of a hugely unpopular move in the clubhouse. He was probably vocal and then decided he could no longer speak English. The Pirates quit on the season no matter how much you want to approve the return. The move has had short term and will have long term repercussions.
If every guy in the clubhouse was thinking they needed another guy or two to win the World Series then they were done already.
If this is players attitude then they should be thrilled. The GM got rid of the two worst starters on the team. Now perhaps they won't be playing from behind every game.
This team has two huge issues: terrible starting pitching (addressed or at least changed) and terrible approaches at the plate recently (bullpen has gotten better).
These trades haven't hurt this teams chances in 2016.
You have to wonder if the Liriano trade wasn't huge for morale reasons as well. Didn't he do his last interview in Spanish, which is the first time he'd done that this year? What was that all about?
Is it down because of Melancon? He was open during the All-Star break that he wasn't sure he'd finish the year as a Pirate. I have a hard time believing there were no club expectations of the trade. They tried to move him all winter and never got an offer they seemed to want.
Is it up because Liriano was causing trouble? What was the root of the desperation that was so out-of-pattern for NH in the Blue Jay trade that has us all PO'd?
I don't think any of us has a real finger on the pulse of the clubhouse.
If every guy in the clubhouse was thinking they needed another guy or two to win the World Series then they were done already.
If this is players attitude then they should be thrilled. The GM got rid of the two worst starters on the team. Now perhaps they won't be playing from behind every game.
This team has two huge issues: terrible starting pitching (addressed or at least changed) and terrible approaches at the plate recently (bullpen has gotten better).
These trades haven't hurt this teams chances in 2016.
You have to wonder if the Liriano trade wasn't huge for morale reasons as well. Didn't he do his last interview in Spanish, which is the first time he'd done that this year? What was that all about?
Is it down because of Melancon? He was open during the All-Star break that he wasn't sure he'd finish the year as a Pirate. I have a hard time believing there were no club expectations of the trade. They tried to move him all winter and never got an offer they seemed to want.
Is it up because Liriano was causing trouble? What was the root of the desperation that was so out-of-pattern for NH in the Blue Jay trade that has us all PO'd?
I don't think any of us has a real finger on the pulse of the clubhouse.
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
Last Minute Trade Buzz
17302125203D02362120203D440 wrote: Dogknot3 just blew my mind.
He knows a fair trade when he sees one.
;D
I am not that high on Ramirez as some. I do like McGuire, but he needs to hit more. Hutchison has had some success in the majors.
I don't know, it is just a thought. Ramirez and McGuire are blocked for years to come. Liriano might have burned some bridges with the coaches, who knows?
Just speculation, but everyone is saying it was Liriano for Hutchison and then two throw-ins. Maybe that wasn't the situation at all?
It was a salary dump and a bribe by the Pirates to do so. I don't know why it's that hard for some people to see and believe this. People will defend this management team and this owner to no end. Looks like for next season you won't be able to use the "they won 98 games last year" excuse, and they made the playoffs for 3 straight seasons. Those excuses won't fly next season if nothing is being done to improve this team.
We can't predict the future. We just don't know who will win this trade yet.
Hutchison could be better than Liriano. Ramirez and McGuire might never make it to the majors. We just don't know.
I never said I was happy with the moves. I am trying to understand it. If you were Toronto, would you be happy? They got three guys with ERAs well over 5.75. Did they really want Liriano? They are replacing a guy who is 11-1 with a 2.71 ERA to make room for him.
I just don't know. None of us do. But I will give Huntington the benefit of doubt due to his success as a GM. He has failed (Niese, Ishwakura) but he has also been very good too (Burnett, Byrd, Lee, getting Melancon).
He knows a fair trade when he sees one.
;D
I am not that high on Ramirez as some. I do like McGuire, but he needs to hit more. Hutchison has had some success in the majors.
I don't know, it is just a thought. Ramirez and McGuire are blocked for years to come. Liriano might have burned some bridges with the coaches, who knows?
Just speculation, but everyone is saying it was Liriano for Hutchison and then two throw-ins. Maybe that wasn't the situation at all?
It was a salary dump and a bribe by the Pirates to do so. I don't know why it's that hard for some people to see and believe this. People will defend this management team and this owner to no end. Looks like for next season you won't be able to use the "they won 98 games last year" excuse, and they made the playoffs for 3 straight seasons. Those excuses won't fly next season if nothing is being done to improve this team.
We can't predict the future. We just don't know who will win this trade yet.
Hutchison could be better than Liriano. Ramirez and McGuire might never make it to the majors. We just don't know.
I never said I was happy with the moves. I am trying to understand it. If you were Toronto, would you be happy? They got three guys with ERAs well over 5.75. Did they really want Liriano? They are replacing a guy who is 11-1 with a 2.71 ERA to make room for him.
I just don't know. None of us do. But I will give Huntington the benefit of doubt due to his success as a GM. He has failed (Niese, Ishwakura) but he has also been very good too (Burnett, Byrd, Lee, getting Melancon).
Last Minute Trade Buzz
Last week I stated my thoughts that the team should be a significant seller at this year's deadline because the team has shown little likelihood that they can really contend this season.
That said, with the exception of Melancon, I don't see how this past week's trades have really harmed the current team.
So, if this team really wants to compete and demonstrate to themselves, the fans and management that management quit on this team when they still had some life in them I suggest the following:
McCutcheon and Kang must start to hit with some regularity.
Harrison needs to demonstrate why the team signed him to a long term contract.
Cervelli needs to stop complaining when the umpires calls a strike against him, to get a few more hits, get off a good throw now and then and ensure that pitches don't get away from him.
I love Marte, but I am beginning to be bothered by what appears to be a focus on stats. For example, in Milwaukee, he congratulated Villar when he stole a base to again take the NL lead in steals. I like that Marte is aggressive on the bases, provided he is stealing when it is appropriate and not because he could lead the league in steals.
Polanco needs to play the outfield more deftly. I am also tiring of his sidearm throws.
Jaso likely needs to sit, and Bell brought up to replace him and relegate him to a bench and part-time role.
At present, the only regular who is really exceeding expectations is Mercer, and all of the current bench has been a dream; Freeze, Joyce, Rodriguez, Frazier and Fryer (no complaints).
I desperately want to see this team win, but frankly, the play on the field for most of this season has not shown that this team has the ability to be a consistent winner. Management's failures to acquire sufficient pitching this off-season clearly is an issue, but so is the production of the players on the field, particularly players who the team was counting on to be major contributors.
After 3 miraculous years, 2016 is the first in a while that has left most flat. I get that many will feel that management quit on this team, but I think it is more of a case of management not being willing to spend on a team that has consistently performed below expectations and which has shown few signs of life (e.g. getting swept by the Brewers).
That said, with the exception of Melancon, I don't see how this past week's trades have really harmed the current team.
So, if this team really wants to compete and demonstrate to themselves, the fans and management that management quit on this team when they still had some life in them I suggest the following:
McCutcheon and Kang must start to hit with some regularity.
Harrison needs to demonstrate why the team signed him to a long term contract.
Cervelli needs to stop complaining when the umpires calls a strike against him, to get a few more hits, get off a good throw now and then and ensure that pitches don't get away from him.
I love Marte, but I am beginning to be bothered by what appears to be a focus on stats. For example, in Milwaukee, he congratulated Villar when he stole a base to again take the NL lead in steals. I like that Marte is aggressive on the bases, provided he is stealing when it is appropriate and not because he could lead the league in steals.
Polanco needs to play the outfield more deftly. I am also tiring of his sidearm throws.
Jaso likely needs to sit, and Bell brought up to replace him and relegate him to a bench and part-time role.
At present, the only regular who is really exceeding expectations is Mercer, and all of the current bench has been a dream; Freeze, Joyce, Rodriguez, Frazier and Fryer (no complaints).
I desperately want to see this team win, but frankly, the play on the field for most of this season has not shown that this team has the ability to be a consistent winner. Management's failures to acquire sufficient pitching this off-season clearly is an issue, but so is the production of the players on the field, particularly players who the team was counting on to be major contributors.
After 3 miraculous years, 2016 is the first in a while that has left most flat. I get that many will feel that management quit on this team, but I think it is more of a case of management not being willing to spend on a team that has consistently performed below expectations and which has shown few signs of life (e.g. getting swept by the Brewers).
-
Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
Last Minute Trade Buzz
0322373E063F24372233560 wrote: I've been trying to say that the Melancon trade was terrible for morale reasons. You just don't weaken your team when you are not out of the playoff hunt. People can say they weren't playing that great and they wouldn't have made the playoffs anyway but what they would have done is conjecture and completely irrelevant to the main issue. I guarantee you that every guy in that clubhouse thought they could win the world series especially if they got an extra player or two. Instead, they consciously weakened the team this year. 2016 Rivero is not as good as 2016 Melancon. Everyone knows that. I suspect that the Liriano desperation trade was a result of a hugely unpopular move in the clubhouse. He was probably vocal and then decided he could no longer speak English. The Pirates quit on the season no matter how much you want to approve the return. The move has had short term and will have long term repercussions.
If every guy in the clubhouse was thinking they needed another guy or two to win the World Series then they were done already.
If this is players attitude then they should be thrilled. The GM got rid of the two worst starters on the team. Now perhaps they won't be playing from behind every game.
This team has two huge issues: terrible starting pitching (addressed or at least changed) and terrible approaches at the plate recently (bullpen has gotten better).
These trades haven't hurt this teams chances in 2016.
You have to wonder if the Liriano trade wasn't huge for morale reasons as well. Didn't he do his last interview in Spanish, which is the first time he'd done that this year? What was that all about?
Is it down because of Melancon? He was open during the All-Star break that he wasn't sure he'd finish the year as a Pirate. I have a hard time believing there were no club expectations of the trade. They tried to move him all winter and never got an offer they seemed to want.
Is it up because Liriano was causing trouble? What was the root of the desperation that was so out-of-pattern for NH in the Blue Jay trade that has us all PO'd?
I don't think any of us has a real finger on the pulse of the clubhouse.
No, I'm not in the clubhouse, but I can successfully put two and two together. The Liriano move was uncharacteristic because it wasn't anticipated. Huntington was asked specifically by Brown whether the Melancon move might have a negative effect on the clubhouse (which I had already predicted would occur). All Huntington could reply was "Well, I hope they understand...." They play Saturday in a fog with their normally gregarious manager having a permascowl on his face. Liriano suddenly refuses to speak English after his start which was characteristically crappy. He is clearly filtering questions and delaying responses. I'm guessing he was vocal in the clubhouse and was already told to be quiet. The situation had the ability to get out of hand unexpectedly to the point that he had to be moved. Because he has sucked and nobody wants his contract, we had had to overpay in prospects to entice someone to take him off our hands.
If every guy in the clubhouse was thinking they needed another guy or two to win the World Series then they were done already.
If this is players attitude then they should be thrilled. The GM got rid of the two worst starters on the team. Now perhaps they won't be playing from behind every game.
This team has two huge issues: terrible starting pitching (addressed or at least changed) and terrible approaches at the plate recently (bullpen has gotten better).
These trades haven't hurt this teams chances in 2016.
You have to wonder if the Liriano trade wasn't huge for morale reasons as well. Didn't he do his last interview in Spanish, which is the first time he'd done that this year? What was that all about?
Is it down because of Melancon? He was open during the All-Star break that he wasn't sure he'd finish the year as a Pirate. I have a hard time believing there were no club expectations of the trade. They tried to move him all winter and never got an offer they seemed to want.
Is it up because Liriano was causing trouble? What was the root of the desperation that was so out-of-pattern for NH in the Blue Jay trade that has us all PO'd?
I don't think any of us has a real finger on the pulse of the clubhouse.
No, I'm not in the clubhouse, but I can successfully put two and two together. The Liriano move was uncharacteristic because it wasn't anticipated. Huntington was asked specifically by Brown whether the Melancon move might have a negative effect on the clubhouse (which I had already predicted would occur). All Huntington could reply was "Well, I hope they understand...." They play Saturday in a fog with their normally gregarious manager having a permascowl on his face. Liriano suddenly refuses to speak English after his start which was characteristically crappy. He is clearly filtering questions and delaying responses. I'm guessing he was vocal in the clubhouse and was already told to be quiet. The situation had the ability to get out of hand unexpectedly to the point that he had to be moved. Because he has sucked and nobody wants his contract, we had had to overpay in prospects to entice someone to take him off our hands.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
Interesting and plausible narrative Wrathchild. Perhaps eventually it will come to light that this actually was how the Liriano deal played out.
-
skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
Last Minute Trade Buzz
79555D5A5176415747340 wrote:
So, if this team really wants to compete and demonstrate to themselves, the fans and management that management quit on this team when they still had some life in them I suggest the following:
McCutcheon and Kang must start to hit with some regularity.
Harrison needs to demonstrate why the team signed him to a long term contract.
Cervelli needs to stop complaining when the umpires calls a strike against him, to get a few more hits, get off a good throw now and then and ensure that pitches don't get away from him.
I love Marte, but I am beginning to be bothered by what appears to be a focus on stats. For example, in Milwaukee, he congratulated Villar when he stole a base to again take the NL lead in steals. I like that Marte is aggressive on the bases, provided he is stealing when it is appropriate and not because he could lead the league in steals.
Polanco needs to play the outfield more deftly. I am also tiring of his sidearm throws.
Jaso likely needs to sit, and Bell brought up to replace him and relegate him to a bench and part-time role.
At present, the only regular who is really exceeding expectations is Mercer, and all of the current bench has been a dream; Freeze, Joyce, Rodriguez, Frazier and Fryer (no complaints).
I desperately want to see this team win, but frankly, the play on the field for most of this season has not shown that this team has the ability to be a consistent winner. Management's failures to acquire sufficient pitching this off-season clearly is an issue, but so is the production of the players on the field, particularly players who the team was counting on to be major contributors.
After 3 miraculous years, 2016 is the first in a while that has left most flat. I get that many will feel that management quit on this team, but I think it is more of a case of management not being willing to spend on a team that has consistently performed below expectations and which has shown few signs of life (e.g. getting swept by the Brewers).
Agree Kang and Cutch must start hitting however I don't understand Hurdle not giving Kang regular playing time I think that has contributed to his lack of performance. Cutch has been a complete disaster and there is absolutely no excuse. He needs to be moved to LF and Marte to Center. Cervelli has been down this year with his hitting and I really think we need to get Diaz up to control the running. They could split time. Marte has had a exceptional year and I have no complaints. Polanco has made great strides. Jaso did what he needed to do at the beginning of the year but it's time to move on bring up Bell and let Jaso go, Bell and Freeze can split time at 1st. Mercer has been exceptional both in the field and at the plate. The bench is very good. The team needs a catalist and that probably is Frasier. Harrison was that for a couple of years but I don't look for him to ever repeat those years. He is ok and should play a lot but not going to regain the year he had a couple of years ago. The pitching is awful with only Cole and the young guys to give us hope.
I totally disagree that we have to buy pitchers to be any good. Look at the Phils they have no name players and are very competitive. They have a manager who knows how to get the best out of their players. We need that very bad and Hurdle is not the guy to get it done without spending a boat load of money and I don't know if even that would do it.
I think we need to go after the Phils manager, he is getting the most out of his players.
So, if this team really wants to compete and demonstrate to themselves, the fans and management that management quit on this team when they still had some life in them I suggest the following:
McCutcheon and Kang must start to hit with some regularity.
Harrison needs to demonstrate why the team signed him to a long term contract.
Cervelli needs to stop complaining when the umpires calls a strike against him, to get a few more hits, get off a good throw now and then and ensure that pitches don't get away from him.
I love Marte, but I am beginning to be bothered by what appears to be a focus on stats. For example, in Milwaukee, he congratulated Villar when he stole a base to again take the NL lead in steals. I like that Marte is aggressive on the bases, provided he is stealing when it is appropriate and not because he could lead the league in steals.
Polanco needs to play the outfield more deftly. I am also tiring of his sidearm throws.
Jaso likely needs to sit, and Bell brought up to replace him and relegate him to a bench and part-time role.
At present, the only regular who is really exceeding expectations is Mercer, and all of the current bench has been a dream; Freeze, Joyce, Rodriguez, Frazier and Fryer (no complaints).
I desperately want to see this team win, but frankly, the play on the field for most of this season has not shown that this team has the ability to be a consistent winner. Management's failures to acquire sufficient pitching this off-season clearly is an issue, but so is the production of the players on the field, particularly players who the team was counting on to be major contributors.
After 3 miraculous years, 2016 is the first in a while that has left most flat. I get that many will feel that management quit on this team, but I think it is more of a case of management not being willing to spend on a team that has consistently performed below expectations and which has shown few signs of life (e.g. getting swept by the Brewers).
Agree Kang and Cutch must start hitting however I don't understand Hurdle not giving Kang regular playing time I think that has contributed to his lack of performance. Cutch has been a complete disaster and there is absolutely no excuse. He needs to be moved to LF and Marte to Center. Cervelli has been down this year with his hitting and I really think we need to get Diaz up to control the running. They could split time. Marte has had a exceptional year and I have no complaints. Polanco has made great strides. Jaso did what he needed to do at the beginning of the year but it's time to move on bring up Bell and let Jaso go, Bell and Freeze can split time at 1st. Mercer has been exceptional both in the field and at the plate. The bench is very good. The team needs a catalist and that probably is Frasier. Harrison was that for a couple of years but I don't look for him to ever repeat those years. He is ok and should play a lot but not going to regain the year he had a couple of years ago. The pitching is awful with only Cole and the young guys to give us hope.
I totally disagree that we have to buy pitchers to be any good. Look at the Phils they have no name players and are very competitive. They have a manager who knows how to get the best out of their players. We need that very bad and Hurdle is not the guy to get it done without spending a boat load of money and I don't know if even that would do it.
I think we need to go after the Phils manager, he is getting the most out of his players.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
Last Minute Trade Buzz
4B6A7F764E776C7F6A7B1E0 wrote: I've been trying to say that the Melancon trade was terrible for morale reasons. You just don't weaken your team when you are not out of the playoff hunt. People can say they weren't playing that great and they wouldn't have made the playoffs anyway but what they would have done is conjecture and completely irrelevant to the main issue. I guarantee you that every guy in that clubhouse thought they could win the world series especially if they got an extra player or two. Instead, they consciously weakened the team this year. 2016 Rivero is not as good as 2016 Melancon. Everyone knows that. I suspect that the Liriano desperation trade was a result of a hugely unpopular move in the clubhouse. He was probably vocal and then decided he could no longer speak English. The Pirates quit on the season no matter how much you want to approve the return. The move has had short term and will have long term repercussions.
If every guy in the clubhouse was thinking they needed another guy or two to win the World Series then they were done already.
If this is players attitude then they should be thrilled. The GM got rid of the two worst starters on the team. Now perhaps they won't be playing from behind every game.
This team has two huge issues: terrible starting pitching (addressed or at least changed) and terrible approaches at the plate recently (bullpen has gotten better).
These trades haven't hurt this teams chances in 2016.
You have to wonder if the Liriano trade wasn't huge for morale reasons as well. Didn't he do his last interview in Spanish, which is the first time he'd done that this year? What was that all about?
Is it down because of Melancon? He was open during the All-Star break that he wasn't sure he'd finish the year as a Pirate. I have a hard time believing there were no club expectations of the trade. They tried to move him all winter and never got an offer they seemed to want.
Is it up because Liriano was causing trouble? What was the root of the desperation that was so out-of-pattern for NH in the Blue Jay trade that has us all PO'd?
I don't think any of us has a real finger on the pulse of the clubhouse.
We know very little about the clubhouse but it was not hard to see that the dugout in Milwaukee was very different, from Clint on down. The play on the field was rotten. Frankie forgets how to speak English....
I don't discount Wrathchild's position that trading Malancon could have had a significant negative impact on the team - there is no way to see that trade as anything but a punt on this season. Seems like most people on here have no problem with moving Malancon. For me, there is no chance I move such a critical piece (and clubhouse presence) for another relief pitcher. Maybe you gotta do a deal if it looks like a Chapman return. But this was a middling return at a critical time.
Something was definitely up in Milwaukee. Who's to say we didn't drop 3 games for some external reason? The not so subtle message from the FO could have been a factor.
If every guy in the clubhouse was thinking they needed another guy or two to win the World Series then they were done already.
If this is players attitude then they should be thrilled. The GM got rid of the two worst starters on the team. Now perhaps they won't be playing from behind every game.
This team has two huge issues: terrible starting pitching (addressed or at least changed) and terrible approaches at the plate recently (bullpen has gotten better).
These trades haven't hurt this teams chances in 2016.
You have to wonder if the Liriano trade wasn't huge for morale reasons as well. Didn't he do his last interview in Spanish, which is the first time he'd done that this year? What was that all about?
Is it down because of Melancon? He was open during the All-Star break that he wasn't sure he'd finish the year as a Pirate. I have a hard time believing there were no club expectations of the trade. They tried to move him all winter and never got an offer they seemed to want.
Is it up because Liriano was causing trouble? What was the root of the desperation that was so out-of-pattern for NH in the Blue Jay trade that has us all PO'd?
I don't think any of us has a real finger on the pulse of the clubhouse.
We know very little about the clubhouse but it was not hard to see that the dugout in Milwaukee was very different, from Clint on down. The play on the field was rotten. Frankie forgets how to speak English....
I don't discount Wrathchild's position that trading Malancon could have had a significant negative impact on the team - there is no way to see that trade as anything but a punt on this season. Seems like most people on here have no problem with moving Malancon. For me, there is no chance I move such a critical piece (and clubhouse presence) for another relief pitcher. Maybe you gotta do a deal if it looks like a Chapman return. But this was a middling return at a critical time.
Something was definitely up in Milwaukee. Who's to say we didn't drop 3 games for some external reason? The not so subtle message from the FO could have been a factor.