Bye-bye NL Baseball

[Bobster21]

517770656C60776169020 wrote: There's no use trying to get through some of your heads. The NL has been using a defacto DH for quite some time now, just too many oldtimers hanging onto to old time notions.



The NL version of the DH is awful though, because after your starting pitcher gets that one, MAYBE two AB's in a game you oh so crave, the rest of the time, those AB's are taken by guys who hit about as well as most pitchers anyhow.



But go ahead, keep telling us these magical stories about pitchers hitting, strategy, and so on. That doesn't exist in the real world, and hasn't for over 30-40 years.  Bullpens have been specialized long before people GAFF about who the 7th inning reliever was prior to fantasy baseball.



Time to open up your eyes old guys. You've BEEN watching the DH, however, there's no amount of proving it to you to ever get to you to agree.



Just go with it. Unless you make a rule where a starting pitcher has to stay in until he doesn't want to be in, the DH point is moot. Give me someone who is competent at bat, instead of Brian Bixler now getting 2 AB's because of the oh so brilliant double switch with two outs in the fifth inning.


Well thank you for your snarky, insulting and just plain wrong comments. Thank you for pointing out that some of us are so old and so out of touch with reality that we don't even realize we've been watching a DH.



Here's what stupid old me thought I was watching. I thought I was watching NL lineups that did not have an extra big bat in the middle of the lineup making it so much easier to construct a batting order than just having to bat the people who were still playing when the other team was at bat without the luxury of also sticking a Nelson Cruz or a J.D. Martinez in the 3, 4 or 5 slot even though they just sit around all game and wait to bat. I thought I was watching managers take the risk of starting defensively challenged players because of their ability to hit instead of leaving them in the dugout risk-free until it was their turn to bat. I thought I was watching managers select players to pinch hit for pitchers in whatever inning that may be (and, yes, somehow I retain the cognitive functioning to realize pitchers don't usually bat for themselves after the 6th inning) the way managers always selected pinch hitters for over a hundred years before the DH was invented for the AL. By using a player off the bench. Know what's that's called? It's called baseball. I'm so stupid that all this time I never realized that watching a team construct a normal lineup using the players who also field the ball, without an extraneous thumper in the middle, sometimes sacrificing defense, and having players not in the starting lineup pinch hit for the pitcher is the same as watching a game using a DH. I didn't realize this NL game I've been watching is the same as the AL game with the nice, tidy lineup from the 1st inning on, making sure a poor defensive player can still bat without also fielding, and never having to make a decision of who should pinch hit for the pitcher because that was determined before the game even began.



Bottom line, Surgbuck: If you like the DH, fine. You have every right to. But don't come on here and start insulting and belittling people who don't share your opinion, telling us we don't even understand what we've been watching. If you can't see the difference between NL and AL baseball, I don't know what to tell you. But I CAN tell you I don't for one freakin' minute appreciate your snarky attitude.

[WildwoodDave]

644944555243541417260 wrote: There's no use trying to get through some of your heads. The NL has been using a defacto DH for quite some time now, just too many oldtimers hanging onto to old time notions.



The NL version of the DH is awful though, because after your starting pitcher gets that one, MAYBE two AB's in a game you oh so crave, the rest of the time, those AB's are taken by guys who hit about as well as most pitchers anyhow.



But go ahead, keep telling us these magical stories about pitchers hitting, strategy, and so on. That doesn't exist in the real world, and hasn't for over 30-40 years.  Bullpens have been specialized long before people GAFF about who the 7th inning reliever was prior to fantasy baseball.



Time to open up your eyes old guys. You've BEEN watching the DH, however, there's no amount of proving it to you to ever get to you to agree.



Just go with it. Unless you make a rule where a starting pitcher has to stay in until he doesn't want to be in, the DH point is moot. Give me someone who is competent at bat, instead of Brian Bixler now getting 2 AB's because of the oh so brilliant double switch with two outs in the fifth inning.


Well thank you for your snarky, insulting and just plain wrong comments. Thank you for pointing out that some of us are so old and so out of touch with reality that we don't even realize we've been watching a DH.



Here's what stupid old me thought I was watching. I thought I was watching NL lineups that did not have an extra big bat in the middle of the lineup making it so much easier to construct a batting order than just having to bat the people who were still playing when the other team was at bat without the luxury of also sticking a Nelson Cruz or a J.D. Martinez in the 3, 4 or 5 slot even though they just sit around all game and wait to bat. I thought I was watching managers take the risk of starting defensively challenged players because of their ability to hit instead of leaving them in the dugout risk-free until it was their turn to bat. I thought I was watching managers select players to pinch hit for pitchers in whatever inning that may be (and, yes, somehow I retain the cognitive functioning to realize pitchers don't usually bat for themselves after the 6th inning) the way managers always selected pinch hitters for over a hundred years before the DH was invented for the AL. By using a player off the bench. Know what's that's called? It's called baseball. I'm so stupid that all this time I never realized that watching a team construct a normal lineup using the players who also field the ball, without an extraneous thumper in the middle, sometimes sacrificing defense, and having players not in the starting lineup pinch hit for the pitcher is the same as watching a game using a DH. I didn't realize this NL game I've been watching is the same as the AL game with the nice, tidy lineup from the 1st inning on, making sure a poor defensive player can still bat without also fielding, and never having to make a decision of who should pinch hit for the pitcher because that was determined before the game even began.



Bottom line, Surgbuck: If you like the DH, fine. You have every right to. But don't come on here and start insulting and belittling people who don't share your opinion, telling us we don't even understand what we've been watching. If you can't see the difference between NL and AL baseball, I don't know what to tell you. But I CAN tell you I don't for one freakin' minute appreciate your snarky attitude.




oh boy,Surge, now you did it!! At first I thought it was Weenie!!

[Surgnbuck]

654845545342551516270 wrote: There's no use trying to get through some of your heads. The NL has been using a defacto DH for quite some time now, just too many oldtimers hanging onto to old time notions.



The NL version of the DH is awful though, because after your starting pitcher gets that one, MAYBE two AB's in a game you oh so crave, the rest of the time, those AB's are taken by guys who hit about as well as most pitchers anyhow.



But go ahead, keep telling us these magical stories about pitchers hitting, strategy, and so on. That doesn't exist in the real world, and hasn't for over 30-40 years.  Bullpens have been specialized long before people GAFF about who the 7th inning reliever was prior to fantasy baseball.



Time to open up your eyes old guys. You've BEEN watching the DH, however, there's no amount of proving it to you to ever get to you to agree.



Just go with it. Unless you make a rule where a starting pitcher has to stay in until he doesn't want to be in, the DH point is moot. Give me someone who is competent at bat, instead of Brian Bixler now getting 2 AB's because of the oh so brilliant double switch with two outs in the fifth inning.


Well thank you for your snarky, insulting and just plain wrong comments. Thank you for pointing out that some of us are so old and so out of touch with reality that we don't even realize we've been watching a DH.



Here's what stupid old me thought I was watching. I thought I was watching NL lineups that did not have an extra big bat in the middle of the lineup making it so much easier to construct a batting order than just having to bat the people who were still playing when the other team was at bat without the luxury of also sticking a Nelson Cruz or a J.D. Martinez in the 3, 4 or 5 slot even though they just sit around all game and wait to bat. I thought I was watching managers take the risk of starting defensively challenged players because of their ability to hit instead of leaving them in the dugout risk-free until it was their turn to bat. I thought I was watching managers select players to pinch hit for pitchers in whatever inning that may be (and, yes, somehow I retain the cognitive functioning to realize pitchers don't usually bat for themselves after the 6th inning) the way managers always selected pinch hitters for over a hundred years before the DH was invented for the AL. By using a player off the bench. Know what's that's called? It's called baseball. I'm so stupid that all this time I never realized that watching a team construct a normal lineup using the players who also field the ball, without an extraneous thumper in the middle, sometimes sacrificing defense, and having players not in the starting lineup pinch hit for the pitcher is the same as watching a game using a DH. I didn't realize this NL game I've been watching is the same as the AL game with the nice, tidy lineup from the 1st inning on, making sure a poor defensive player can still bat without also fielding, and never having to make a decision of who should pinch hit for the pitcher because that was determined before the game even began.



Bottom line, Surgbuck: If you like the DH, fine. You have every right to. But don't come on here and start insulting and belittling people who don't share your opinion, telling us we don't even understand what we've been watching. If you can't see the difference between NL and AL baseball, I don't know what to tell you. But I CAN tell you I don't for one freakin' minute appreciate your snarky attitude.






Me disagreeing with your opinion does not constitute snarky or insulting, it does expose a nerve in you though. No one person was singled out, just an outdated opinion that just because it's held oh so dear, doesn't mean what I said isn't correct.



I'm 60 btw. I'm an "old timer". There is nothing plain wrong with what I've said. What is plain wrong is you singling me out because you're upset with what I had to say.



In 1973, with the adoption of the DH in the AL, there were 447 complete games thrown in the NL, 614 in the AL. Which meant, to old timers like me, that we got to see the starter, the supposed BEST pitcher on the team that day, go the distance longer. That's old time baseball to me too, those HOF stud SP going the distance. I wonder if you disagree on that.



By 1980, NL had 307 CG's. Seven short years and we saw an astronomical rise in the use and specialization of bullpens.



By 1990, there were only 200 complete games in the NL, the last time there would be 200 or more.



By 2000, there were only 127 CG's, and that was with a 16 team league. In 2005, there would be only 104 CG's in the NL, the only other time in the last TWENTY YEARS there were 100 or more CG's by the league in a season.



The CG's in the AL dramatically decreased also. In only 6 seasons since the DH has the NL had more CG's than the AL, and in five of those, they had two more teams.



Fewer complete games mean fewer AB's by starting pitchers. AB's by relief pitchers are rare, and usually due to extenuating circumstances when they even have a bat in their hand.



So, if your toes feel stepped on, look at your other foot. I didn't do it. You can't take offense to something that wasn't directed at you, and when there was nothing to take offense about.



The facts are the facts....the NL has been playing a weaker brand of DH since 1973, and since 1990, have been playing on average almost half or more of EVERY game as a DH game with relief pitcher specialization.



The AL is just like the NL now, their pitchers don't throw many CG's either. They just have a better pinch hitter the entire game. But go ahead, try and tell me that's heathenistic, because Brian Bixler and Sean Rodriguez going in to PH but not actually playing in the field is somehow better than Edgar Martinez doing it 4 times a game, because we want to see that strategy.



It's funny, people decry about wanting the "best" players on the field have no problem with three utility guys playing out of position because they were double switched into the game because of a lefty-righty matchup.



Oh, the strategy.

[Surgnbuck]

6B5550584B535358785D4A593C0 wrote:

oh boy,Surge, now you did it!! At first I thought it was Weenie!!


I didn't do anything. Some guy who thinks his baseball bible is the holy doctrine and was tread upon was offended, and felt he had to stick up for the sacraments. I didn't single out a single person.



Guess the term "old timers" bit him in the ass. I'm an old timer too, I've been alive for the same many Pirates WS championships as any other single living MF'er on this board. And I'm too old to be told by some other old geezer to get off his lawn, because I'm not on his lawn, he's in the wrong neighborhood all together,.

[Bobster21]

4F696E7B727E697F771C0 wrote:

oh boy,Surge, now you did it!! At first I thought it was Weenie!!


I didn't do anything. Some guy who thinks his baseball bible is the holy doctrine and was tread upon was offended, and felt he had to stick up for the sacraments. I didn't single out a single person.



Guess the term "old timers" bit him in the ass. I'm an old timer too, I've been alive for the same many Pirates WS championships as any other single living MF'er on this board. And I'm too old to be told by some other old geezer to get off his lawn, because I'm not on his lawn, he's in the wrong neighborhood all together,.




I'm fully aware of the decline in CGs. But your concept that PHing for pitchers is the equivalent of the DH is inaccurate for tbe reasons I specified and you ignored. But I'm far less concerned about our differing opinions on the DH than I am with your conduct. And if it doesn't improve this old geezer is gonna kick you off his lawn and you will no longer be in the OBN neighborhood. Consider yourself warned.

[GreenWeenie]

I know how many home runs Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, and Barry Bonds hit.



Don't care how many blunts some pitcher even tried.



The last managers I cared to see had nothing to do whatsoever with their chessmaster strategy.  Both are dead; Earl Weaver and Billy Martin.  There hasn't been a manager worth the price of admittance since.



I did pay to see some HS girls BB coach a couple times, though.

[GermanTownship]

Also an old timer, age 71, my personal feelings about the state of Major League Baseball have not changed. It is broken! The only sport that have a different set of rules in regard to the dh being used, not only in the American League, but also with inter-league play. You don’t see different rules in any of the other sports. Either make it the same, as in regard to the dh, or eliminate it. As I am writing this, news has it that the owners and players association are meeting to discuss a type of revenue sharing, which the players are already saying is a nonstarter. Personally, let’s just cancel baseball for not only this year, but also next year. Both sides are to blame. Until both sides come up with a “fair” agreement that makes the game enjoyable again, people will care less and less about the game that, at one time, I enjoyed. And, I will say this. If someone gets their “tidy whities” tied up in a bunch, then so be it. We all have opinions.

[Bobster21]

2604130C000F350E160F12090811610 wrote: Also an old timer, age 71, my personal feelings about the state of Major League Baseball have not changed. It is broken! The only sport that have a different set of rules in regard to the dh being used, not only in the American League, but also with inter-league play. You don’t see different rules in any of the other sports. Either make it the same, as in regard to the dh, or eliminate it. As I am writing this, news has it that the owners and players association are meeting to discuss a type of revenue sharing, which the players are already saying is a nonstarter. Personally, let’s just cancel baseball for not only this year, but also next year. Both sides are to blame. Until both sides come up with a “fair” agreement that makes the game enjoyable again, people will care less and less about the game that, at one time, I enjoyed. And, I will say this. If someone gets their “tidy whities” tied up in a bunch, then so be it. We all have opinions.
If that's directed at me let me make this perfectly clear. I respect peoples' opinions that they like and/or want the DH even though I don't share that opinion. But I have a problem with people presenting their opinion in an insulting, disrespectful manner. There's a difference being accepting differing opinions and accepting rude behavior.

[SyrBucco]

I have a compromise idea that I throw out every year or so here at OnlyBucs. I would be in favor of both leagues changing over to the "Designated Pinch Hitter" rule. There are two ways it could work:



1. At one point in each game, the manager may elect to pinch hit for the pitcher without being required to remove the pitcher from the game. The batter used for the pitcher is no longer eligible to play in that game. This is the simple option, and I prefer it.



2. At one point in each game, the manager may elect to pinch hit for the pitcher without being required to remove the pitcher from the game. The batter used for the pitcher is eligible to reenter that game beginning with the next time his place in the batting order reoccurs.



What I like most about the "Designated Pinch Hitter" rule is that it adds, rather than detracts, from managerial strategy for both managers. It's easy to see reporters grilling the manager post-game about their use (or lack of use) of this tool during the contest. It is a compromise position, allowing strong hitting/weak fielding players a place in the game (especially with Option 2) while still keeping a slight advantage for the rare good hitting pitcher. But it gives every fan a daily shot at second guessing the manager!

[johnfluharty]

I like the first option quite a bit.b