In honor of our new #24, here are some things I am thinking today after the trade deadline…
1. People rail on NH, but what he did at this deadline is exactly what he has talked about and done, albeit at a smaller scale, throughout his whole tenure. They intend to win now and for the future and they don’t sell the farm for a short term window. It seems that many folks think this is a new era, but I would argue that NH executed a move that is larger than previous one, but totally in line with their philosophy.
2. I was wishy washy on Archer. Loved him a couple years ago, but his ERA had me more cautious in giving away top prospects for him recently. Look a little deeper and you will see that he gives up lots of HRs (no surprise in his division) and has a really good FIP (mid 3.5s) over the last couple years. Combine leaving that division and his ability to strike guys out…he could be really good with the Pirates. Really good. Just heard his ERA was 3.40 beyond the AL East.
3. Kela - sounds like the PTBNL isn’t a big prospect. Feels like we stole him from Texas. I have no problem giving up Hearn.
4. I know most of the city dislikes Glasnow. It’s like Pirates fans and Glasnow’s relationship is one of a scorned lover. Glasnow wasn’t Randy Johnson and people disliked him. However, it seems like the rest of baseball (and TB) really think highly of him. I have great concern about losing him. Moreso than Meadows. I wrote more about this in the “Glasnow starting tonight” thread.
5. I’m in the minority, but I’ll say it…I really liked Glasnow and I’m really sad to see him traded. Go ahead, mock me.
6. It seems like Pittsburgh and Tampa are both really excited about the trade and both feel like they “won.” That’s pretty rare and both are probably right.
7. There isn’t a Bumgarner, but this rotation looks really good. I think Archer will elevate his game pitching meaningful baseball. Taillon, Musgrove, and Williams are looking as good as any point in their career. Kingham/Kuhl/Nova will be fine to fill that last spot.
8. NH can certainly build a bullpen, right?
9. The catching spot looks quite formidable at the moment. With Cervelli healthy and Diaz as the backup, I don’t look at that position as taking a step back any day. And they both add a upper echelon bat (for catchers).
10. If Polanco keeps hitting like this…
11. If Marte keeps hitting like this…
12. What a gift it is to see a player like Osuna waiting in the wings to immediately step in and perform when Bell goes down. Solid defense and really good hitter. That was a clutch double last night.
13. I’m tired of watching Mercer and Harrison/Frazier in the middle infield. Very subpar defense. Allegedly Newman and Kramer are good defenders? True? If so, that could be a big difference make on this team if the other 6 positions are hitting. The pitching staff could really be helped with above average defense up the middle.
14. I like Taillon and he has been pitching great lately. But I wanted to punch in the face last night for missing with 0-2 pitches up on the zone. He has to execute better than that. You can't miss that bad.
15. What if Kang comes back and looks like his former self?
16. Way too much is being made of the fan’s take on these trades. I have even heard some fans/media alluding to the fact that their pressure forced the hand of the FO. C’mon.
17. Kela will be a great addition. This sort of makes the 6th-9th innings scripted. That means less Hurdle managing. That’s a winner!
18. I’m not overwhelmingly saddened by losing Meadows. I think he will be good but not great. He reminds me a bit of Yelich. I think that would be has absolute upside which he may achieve periodically playing in the ballparks in which he will play in the AL East.
19. I just realized that Boston is 75-34. The Orioles are 42 games back. In August.
20. TB is a great place for Meadows and Glasnow to go.
21. The schedule is great to make up ground on the WC. Games against the Rockies, Braves, and Brewers. We also have 4 series between the Reds, Royals, and the seemingly cashing it in Cardinals.
22. Archer is not wearing 22 as he has all of his career. I think he should have gotten it.
23. Let’s unrealistically dream for a moment…What if NH actually hit on his ace with Keller. Fourth time’s a charm (Cole, Taillon, Glasnow)! Like DeGrom/Syndergaard, good from the first start good. Assuming he comes up next June (since there will be no pressure with the SP depth), how good will staff look…Ace Keller, Archer, Taillon, Musgrove, Williams.
24. Archer will wear #24. Time to get get your authentic Archer jersey. It will be good for 3 years!
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
nice list.
I would not be surprised if Glasnow becomes a solid starter for Tampa Bay. I would like to have kept him (although not at expense of Keller).
I would not be surprised if Glasnow becomes a solid starter for Tampa Bay. I would like to have kept him (although not at expense of Keller).
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OrlandoMerced
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
Couple of responses.
When critiquing the NH decisions, I always try to look at decision at the times they are made. The consensus seems to be that NH should have traded Meadows and Glasnow in 2014 or 2015 for upgrades then. In hindsight, especially after trading both of them yesterday, that looks like the choice that should have been made. But I think the current construct of the 25 and 40 man rosters is much different than in the contending years.
The current farm system lacks the top prospects that it had in those years (Bell, Glasnow, Meadows and Taillon), but the system/organization is just churning out guys that can play at the ML level this year (Crick, Kingham, Luplow, Osuna, Diaz), and between AAA and AA they have 6 more guys that can reach the majors through the end of this year and next (Keller, Newman, Kramer, Martin, Hayes, Tucker)
When critiquing the NH decisions, I always try to look at decision at the times they are made. The consensus seems to be that NH should have traded Meadows and Glasnow in 2014 or 2015 for upgrades then. In hindsight, especially after trading both of them yesterday, that looks like the choice that should have been made. But I think the current construct of the 25 and 40 man rosters is much different than in the contending years.
The current farm system lacks the top prospects that it had in those years (Bell, Glasnow, Meadows and Taillon), but the system/organization is just churning out guys that can play at the ML level this year (Crick, Kingham, Luplow, Osuna, Diaz), and between AAA and AA they have 6 more guys that can reach the majors through the end of this year and next (Keller, Newman, Kramer, Martin, Hayes, Tucker)
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SteadyFreddy
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
567071667060130 wrote: nice list.
I would not be surprised if Glasnow becomes a solid starter for Tampa Bay. I would like to have kept him (although not at expense of Keller).
I will be the guy sucks period. He is a headcase, he never listened to the coaches, he is weak mentally and is overrated. He will be lucky to be an average Major League starter. Like I said before Good Riddance.
I would not be surprised if Glasnow becomes a solid starter for Tampa Bay. I would like to have kept him (although not at expense of Keller).
I will be the guy sucks period. He is a headcase, he never listened to the coaches, he is weak mentally and is overrated. He will be lucky to be an average Major League starter. Like I said before Good Riddance.
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
5E79686C69744B7F686969740D0 wrote: nice list.
I would not be surprised if Glasnow becomes a solid starter for Tampa Bay. I would like to have kept him (although not at expense of Keller).
I will be the guy sucks period. He is a headcase, he never listened to the coaches, he is weak mentally and is overrated. He will be lucky to be an average Major League starter. Like I said before Good Riddance.
Those talking points get used all of the time around here. Please back one of them up. Especially the point that he never listened to coaches. Do you have any proof?
I would not be surprised if Glasnow becomes a solid starter for Tampa Bay. I would like to have kept him (although not at expense of Keller).
I will be the guy sucks period. He is a headcase, he never listened to the coaches, he is weak mentally and is overrated. He will be lucky to be an average Major League starter. Like I said before Good Riddance.
Those talking points get used all of the time around here. Please back one of them up. Especially the point that he never listened to coaches. Do you have any proof?
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rucker59@gmail.com
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
PMike, glad for you as you never gave up on the plan.
I agree with much of what you shared. But want to comment on a few.
I have to completely disagree about this being representative of Neal in the past. If we were to turn the clock back just a bit, so that Glasnow was still listed as a prospect, Neal dealt 3!! Of his too 10 prospects, including two of his two top projects. He has never come close to using his entire system for the sake of the entire system. This is the first time, imho, that Neal has subordinated the farm/future for the big leagues/present. The fact he has had some real success with reclamation projects is very different than going out and acquiring the best play he could afford.
That’s the difference: he could have repeated prior years and brought a project back for no cost. Instead he used available resources to acquire the best player he could afford.
Since I think the FO did bring a new approach to these trades, the Q is “why”? I believe 100% that the fans have a real part of this change. I’ll put it this way: I’ve heard Neal talk, on several occasions, about failing after the 2015 season. It’s said in context of mistakes that impact community support. I think Neal and Frank both know that you have to manage, to sone significant degree, for the hope of the fans. Attendance this year got the attention of the FO.
I also hate to lose Glasnow and rooted for the guy. But I’m 100% on board with this move.
I’m one who believes Kang will be TPTBNL.
I’m not sold on changing th middle infield. This is obviously a very tight clubhouse. If Jordy or JHay are moved I think it would have real negative impact. I agree about Jordy’s range. But j wonder about Josh, the eye test looks like he’s still a good defender. I’d be interested to know how many basehits per game are the result of the range of the middle IF.
If Keller could be a true ACE - this team will compete for a WS next 2-3 years. If Keller is more like Tallion, the Pirates are still going to compete for a WS. But Keller could lift this team to elite status.
I agree with much of what you shared. But want to comment on a few.
I have to completely disagree about this being representative of Neal in the past. If we were to turn the clock back just a bit, so that Glasnow was still listed as a prospect, Neal dealt 3!! Of his too 10 prospects, including two of his two top projects. He has never come close to using his entire system for the sake of the entire system. This is the first time, imho, that Neal has subordinated the farm/future for the big leagues/present. The fact he has had some real success with reclamation projects is very different than going out and acquiring the best play he could afford.
That’s the difference: he could have repeated prior years and brought a project back for no cost. Instead he used available resources to acquire the best player he could afford.
Since I think the FO did bring a new approach to these trades, the Q is “why”? I believe 100% that the fans have a real part of this change. I’ll put it this way: I’ve heard Neal talk, on several occasions, about failing after the 2015 season. It’s said in context of mistakes that impact community support. I think Neal and Frank both know that you have to manage, to sone significant degree, for the hope of the fans. Attendance this year got the attention of the FO.
I also hate to lose Glasnow and rooted for the guy. But I’m 100% on board with this move.
I’m one who believes Kang will be TPTBNL.
I’m not sold on changing th middle infield. This is obviously a very tight clubhouse. If Jordy or JHay are moved I think it would have real negative impact. I agree about Jordy’s range. But j wonder about Josh, the eye test looks like he’s still a good defender. I’d be interested to know how many basehits per game are the result of the range of the middle IF.
If Keller could be a true ACE - this team will compete for a WS next 2-3 years. If Keller is more like Tallion, the Pirates are still going to compete for a WS. But Keller could lift this team to elite status.
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
2A2D3B333D2A6D61183F35393134763B3735580 wrote: PMike, glad for you as you never gave up on the plan.
I agree with much of what you shared. But want to comment on a few.
I have to completely disagree about this being representative of Neal in the past. If we were to turn the clock back just a bit, so that Glasnow was still listed as a prospect, Neal dealt 3!! Of his too 10 prospects, including two of his two top projects. He has never come close to using his entire system for the sake of the entire system. This is the first time, imho, that Neal has subordinated the farm/future for the big leagues/present. The fact he has had some real success with reclamation projects is very different than going out and acquiring the best play he could afford.
That’s the difference: he could have repeated prior years and brought a project back for no cost. Instead he used available resources to acquire the best player he could afford.
Since I think the FO did bring a new approach to these trades, the Q is “why”? I believe 100% that the fans have a real part of this change. I’ll put it this way: I’ve heard Neal talk, on several occasions, about failing after the 2015 season. It’s said in context of mistakes that impact community support. I think Neal and Frank both know that you have to manage, to sone significant degree, for the hope of the fans. Attendance this year got the attention of the FO.
I also hate to lose Glasnow and rooted for the guy. But I’m 100% on board with this move.
I’m one who believes Kang will be TPTBNL.
I’m not sold on changing th middle infield. This is obviously a very tight clubhouse. If Jordy or JHay are moved I think it would have real negative impact. I agree about Jordy’s range. But j wonder about Josh, the eye test looks like he’s still a good defender. I’d be interested to know how many basehits per game are the result of the range of the middle IF.
If Keller could be a true ACE - this team will compete for a WS next 2-3 years. If Keller is more like Tallion, the Pirates are still going to compete for a WS. But Keller could lift this team to elite status.
It doesn't matter if I think the plan is right or wrong or non existent. I do think that as a basic ideology, they wish to manage the organization in a way that desires to win now and every year. They don't believe in windows. That has always been their language. I think they adapt their methodology to the current landscape and their previous experience (successes and failings).
NH may not have traded top 10 prospects in the past, but all reports seem to resoundingly say that he tried. It really does take two trade partners to make a deal come to fruition. In the NH era, there have been many reports beyond Pittsburgh that they were prepared to give away top prospects to get a player. It was Archer in previous years and the well documented Price trade where some thought the Pirates made the best offer. In this moment, there are other teams out there who didn't get Archer. It's not necessarily because they wouldn't trade their prospects, but rather because the Pirates gave more and TB liked the Pirates offer. And as a side note, from the sounds of it, on Monday the Rays sent a memo to the teams interested in trading for Archer the Rays demands. The Pirates were the team to meet that demand...allegedly.
To your point about chemistry and Mercer and Harrison, you are probably right. Both of those guys have been around for awhile and probably do add a lot to the clubhouse. I am generally not one who buys in to "chemistry" too much. I think winning creates chemistry more than other non tangible stuff, but I hear your words and they are worth considering.
I agree with much of what you shared. But want to comment on a few.
I have to completely disagree about this being representative of Neal in the past. If we were to turn the clock back just a bit, so that Glasnow was still listed as a prospect, Neal dealt 3!! Of his too 10 prospects, including two of his two top projects. He has never come close to using his entire system for the sake of the entire system. This is the first time, imho, that Neal has subordinated the farm/future for the big leagues/present. The fact he has had some real success with reclamation projects is very different than going out and acquiring the best play he could afford.
That’s the difference: he could have repeated prior years and brought a project back for no cost. Instead he used available resources to acquire the best player he could afford.
Since I think the FO did bring a new approach to these trades, the Q is “why”? I believe 100% that the fans have a real part of this change. I’ll put it this way: I’ve heard Neal talk, on several occasions, about failing after the 2015 season. It’s said in context of mistakes that impact community support. I think Neal and Frank both know that you have to manage, to sone significant degree, for the hope of the fans. Attendance this year got the attention of the FO.
I also hate to lose Glasnow and rooted for the guy. But I’m 100% on board with this move.
I’m one who believes Kang will be TPTBNL.
I’m not sold on changing th middle infield. This is obviously a very tight clubhouse. If Jordy or JHay are moved I think it would have real negative impact. I agree about Jordy’s range. But j wonder about Josh, the eye test looks like he’s still a good defender. I’d be interested to know how many basehits per game are the result of the range of the middle IF.
If Keller could be a true ACE - this team will compete for a WS next 2-3 years. If Keller is more like Tallion, the Pirates are still going to compete for a WS. But Keller could lift this team to elite status.
It doesn't matter if I think the plan is right or wrong or non existent. I do think that as a basic ideology, they wish to manage the organization in a way that desires to win now and every year. They don't believe in windows. That has always been their language. I think they adapt their methodology to the current landscape and their previous experience (successes and failings).
NH may not have traded top 10 prospects in the past, but all reports seem to resoundingly say that he tried. It really does take two trade partners to make a deal come to fruition. In the NH era, there have been many reports beyond Pittsburgh that they were prepared to give away top prospects to get a player. It was Archer in previous years and the well documented Price trade where some thought the Pirates made the best offer. In this moment, there are other teams out there who didn't get Archer. It's not necessarily because they wouldn't trade their prospects, but rather because the Pirates gave more and TB liked the Pirates offer. And as a side note, from the sounds of it, on Monday the Rays sent a memo to the teams interested in trading for Archer the Rays demands. The Pirates were the team to meet that demand...allegedly.
To your point about chemistry and Mercer and Harrison, you are probably right. Both of those guys have been around for awhile and probably do add a lot to the clubhouse. I am generally not one who buys in to "chemistry" too much. I think winning creates chemistry more than other non tangible stuff, but I hear your words and they are worth considering.
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Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
I appreciate your post and willingness to state a different perspective. I agree with most of your points and disagree with a couple.
I think the fans were fairly instrumental in the deadline moves. Attendance is terrible even though the team has been pretty good. I think the team alienated a lot of people in 2016 and needed to make a splash to try to get them back. I see this as a bit of an apology for the 2016 deadline where they gave up even though they were closer to the wild card than this season. I accept the apology and plan to end my personal boycott and attend Archer's start in San Francisco if he has one.
I don't think the Archer trade is a clear win for the Pirates at all, though. It depends on the respective teams' perspective. I will be stunned if Archer gives the Pirates more value than Glasnow and Meadows give to Tampa. It's interesting that Tampa has basically the same record and economics as the Pirates but didn't think Archer was a guy to keep.
Glasnow's ERA, FIP and xFIP are all similar to Archer. He seems as likely to get better somewhere else as Archer. It appears that the Pirates infield defense isn't allowing Glasnow's extreme groundball rate to succeed. Archer is not an extreme groundball guy. With Bell and Moran likely playing for awhile and middle infield an uncertainty, Glasnow probably wasn't going to get the results he should. The trade could easily improve both guys.
One thing I find interesting though is that the people who think the Pirates mishandled Cole seem to be assuming that same organization is going to bring Archer back to his glory days. Yet, Archer doesn't throw a two-seam fastball and his four-seamer is getting pounded. I have never believed the Pirates coaches stood in Cole's way. I think ancillary issues led to a loss of effectiveness in Pittsburgh. I think the same may be true of Archer. He's been pitching in an underwhelming environment with a contract he probably wishes he had never signed. Maybe he will be rejuvenated, regain some lost focus and give us the guy we need.
Nobody seems to like Meadows suddenly. But I thought he was Polanco's replacement...
I think the fans were fairly instrumental in the deadline moves. Attendance is terrible even though the team has been pretty good. I think the team alienated a lot of people in 2016 and needed to make a splash to try to get them back. I see this as a bit of an apology for the 2016 deadline where they gave up even though they were closer to the wild card than this season. I accept the apology and plan to end my personal boycott and attend Archer's start in San Francisco if he has one.
I don't think the Archer trade is a clear win for the Pirates at all, though. It depends on the respective teams' perspective. I will be stunned if Archer gives the Pirates more value than Glasnow and Meadows give to Tampa. It's interesting that Tampa has basically the same record and economics as the Pirates but didn't think Archer was a guy to keep.
Glasnow's ERA, FIP and xFIP are all similar to Archer. He seems as likely to get better somewhere else as Archer. It appears that the Pirates infield defense isn't allowing Glasnow's extreme groundball rate to succeed. Archer is not an extreme groundball guy. With Bell and Moran likely playing for awhile and middle infield an uncertainty, Glasnow probably wasn't going to get the results he should. The trade could easily improve both guys.
One thing I find interesting though is that the people who think the Pirates mishandled Cole seem to be assuming that same organization is going to bring Archer back to his glory days. Yet, Archer doesn't throw a two-seam fastball and his four-seamer is getting pounded. I have never believed the Pirates coaches stood in Cole's way. I think ancillary issues led to a loss of effectiveness in Pittsburgh. I think the same may be true of Archer. He's been pitching in an underwhelming environment with a contract he probably wishes he had never signed. Maybe he will be rejuvenated, regain some lost focus and give us the guy we need.
Nobody seems to like Meadows suddenly. But I thought he was Polanco's replacement...
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
705546534F444F4E4B43270 wrote:
I think the fans were fairly instrumental in the deadline moves.
Does this team seem to you like a team that (for good or bad) does things because the fans say they want it?
I think the fans were fairly instrumental in the deadline moves.
Does this team seem to you like a team that (for good or bad) does things because the fans say they want it?
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Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
In honor of our new #24...24 thoughts
063438382C1E3D34393C3334550 wrote:
I think the fans were fairly instrumental in the deadline moves.
Does this team seem to you like a team that (for good or bad) does things because the fans say they want it?
It seems like a team that is adjusting its philosophy at least long enough to get butts in seats.
I think the fans were fairly instrumental in the deadline moves.
Does this team seem to you like a team that (for good or bad) does things because the fans say they want it?
It seems like a team that is adjusting its philosophy at least long enough to get butts in seats.