5D76776A7169705C6B7D7D711E0 wrote: Think people fail to realize how deep the system is, the bucs may seriously end up having a replay of the cam bonifay fiasco with all the guys they have that they won be able to protect on The 40 man roster.
There are literally like 7 OFers blocking Harold Ramirez
There are 3-4 catchers blocking McGuire
The Bucs saved about 17 million and got a controlled cheap live arm.
I will on,y be mad about the trade if they don't use the savings this year to do something befor the waiver wire deadline or in the off season to use that money and also increase the payroll abov arb increases
they save maybe 15 million as Hutchison gets 2.2 million. Bucs Dugout article speculates that Hutchison could even get non-tendered (that is worst case scenario).
This is bad in that this bad contract, like Morton and Tabata's is one that the Bucs offered. I think prospects should be used to bring in talent and not save money. The Bucs have to be able to afford to eat a contract now and then.
I don't know why NH even wants to stay in Pittsburgh with the constraints he has to operate under. My guess is the Pirates are going to have close to the same payroll next year as this year.
After today, I feel much less optimistic that the Pirates have a chance to be a true contender for a World Series title.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3630
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Last Minute Trade Buzz
1932332E352D34182F3939355A0 wrote: Think people fail to realize how deep the system is, the bucs may seriously end up having a replay of the cam bonifay fiasco with all the guys they have that they won be able to protect on The 40 man roster.
There are literally like 7 OFers blocking Harold Ramirez
There are 3-4 catchers blocking McGuire
The Bucs saved about 17 million and got a controlled cheap live arm.
I will on,y be mad about the trade if they don't use the savings this year to do something befor the waiver wire deadline or in the off season to use that money and also increase the payroll abov arb increases
Then flip them for something! Not for the sake of getting someone to take our guys. We gave up more in this "trade" than most buyers did to load up for the deadline.
There are literally like 7 OFers blocking Harold Ramirez
There are 3-4 catchers blocking McGuire
The Bucs saved about 17 million and got a controlled cheap live arm.
I will on,y be mad about the trade if they don't use the savings this year to do something befor the waiver wire deadline or in the off season to use that money and also increase the payroll abov arb increases
Then flip them for something! Not for the sake of getting someone to take our guys. We gave up more in this "trade" than most buyers did to load up for the deadline.
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ChitownBucco
- Posts: 492
- Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:10 pm
Last Minute Trade Buzz
32000C0C182A09000D080700610 wrote: Think people fail to realize how deep the system is, the bucs may seriously end up having a replay of the cam bonifay fiasco with all the guys they have that they won be able to protect on The 40 man roster.
There are literally like 7 OFers blocking Harold Ramirez
There are 3-4 catchers blocking McGuire
The Bucs saved about 17 million and got a controlled cheap live arm.
I will on,y be mad about the trade if they don't use the savings this year to do something befor the waiver wire deadline or in the off season to use that money and also increase the payroll abov arb increases
Then flip them for something! Not for the sake of getting someone to take our guys. We gave up more in this "trade" than most buyers did to load up for the deadline.
I mean they aren't top 100 type prospects. So ma e you could get a bullpen arm for that?
I'm honestly asking as I haven't looked at all the returns on starting pitchers today. And that is the only area the Pirates really need right now if they would just call Bell up.
There are literally like 7 OFers blocking Harold Ramirez
There are 3-4 catchers blocking McGuire
The Bucs saved about 17 million and got a controlled cheap live arm.
I will on,y be mad about the trade if they don't use the savings this year to do something befor the waiver wire deadline or in the off season to use that money and also increase the payroll abov arb increases
Then flip them for something! Not for the sake of getting someone to take our guys. We gave up more in this "trade" than most buyers did to load up for the deadline.
I mean they aren't top 100 type prospects. So ma e you could get a bullpen arm for that?
I'm honestly asking as I haven't looked at all the returns on starting pitchers today. And that is the only area the Pirates really need right now if they would just call Bell up.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
Reminds me of the Ramirez salary dump although this seems worse....not a happy trading deadline day for us Bucco fans.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
7153405D5E5B5C53704751515D320 wrote: That's my single biggest gripe ... we are using our prospects to GIVE AWAY players instead of to GET players.
I am not terrified of the 2 PTBNL in the Yankees deal.
Terrified.
Nova is no good and he's a 2 month rental. These two guys CANNOT be top 30 prospects.
The bolded above says it all. Prospects are assets that should be used when traded from areas of strength to acquire comparable talent in areas of need, not as bribes for salary dumps. The apparent message is that the Pirates Organization's concern for dollars trumps everything else including winning a championship.
I am not terrified of the 2 PTBNL in the Yankees deal.
Terrified.
Nova is no good and he's a 2 month rental. These two guys CANNOT be top 30 prospects.
The bolded above says it all. Prospects are assets that should be used when traded from areas of strength to acquire comparable talent in areas of need, not as bribes for salary dumps. The apparent message is that the Pirates Organization's concern for dollars trumps everything else including winning a championship.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
5E7A6E66630F0 wrote: That's my single biggest gripe ... we are using our prospects to GIVE AWAY players instead of to GET players.
I am not terrified of the 2 PTBNL in the Yankees deal.
Terrified.
Nova is no good and he's a 2 month rental. These two guys CANNOT be top 30 prospects.
The bolded above says it all. Prospects are assets that should be used when traded from areas of strength to acquire comparable talent in areas of need, not as bribes for salary dumps. The apparent message is that the Pirates Organization's concern for dollars trumps everything else including winning a championship.
It's starting to make me wonder how many prospects the Pirates will have to give away when they trade McCutchen. Might just box up all of Altoona and ship it off along with him.
I am not terrified of the 2 PTBNL in the Yankees deal.
Terrified.
Nova is no good and he's a 2 month rental. These two guys CANNOT be top 30 prospects.
The bolded above says it all. Prospects are assets that should be used when traded from areas of strength to acquire comparable talent in areas of need, not as bribes for salary dumps. The apparent message is that the Pirates Organization's concern for dollars trumps everything else including winning a championship.
It's starting to make me wonder how many prospects the Pirates will have to give away when they trade McCutchen. Might just box up all of Altoona and ship it off along with him.
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steve49
Last Minute Trade Buzz
4974736974731D0 wrote: I am a big believer of this trade. Both mcguire and ramirez were blocked for at least the next three years and they got toronto to take a crap pitcher with a huge salary. No one knows what mcguire and ramirez will do. At this point it is total conjecture.
Yeah, I dislike this one due to McGuire. A decent defensive catcher can play in the majors for 15 years without hitting.
My father is a Braves fan and his lamenting about the Braves lack of catchers in their whole system made me giggle, until an hour ago.
McGuire alone could have brought a decent return.
The annoying this that the 13 million saved is already spent on raises in 2017 for current players plus arbitration.
Saving 13 million in todays version of MLB is like peeing on your lawn in a major drought. Utterly ridiculous . Just cut the guy and be done with it. One lousy year left on his deal ... I'm doubt founded with this one.
Yeah, I dislike this one due to McGuire. A decent defensive catcher can play in the majors for 15 years without hitting.
My father is a Braves fan and his lamenting about the Braves lack of catchers in their whole system made me giggle, until an hour ago.
McGuire alone could have brought a decent return.
The annoying this that the 13 million saved is already spent on raises in 2017 for current players plus arbitration.
Saving 13 million in todays version of MLB is like peeing on your lawn in a major drought. Utterly ridiculous . Just cut the guy and be done with it. One lousy year left on his deal ... I'm doubt founded with this one.
Last Minute Trade Buzz
Last week, in the thread, We Need to Sell, I supported the Pirates moving much of the current talent that was not signed to a longer term deal. In that thread, I stated that the Bucs should consider moving Liriano if someone were willing to overpay. I guess my mistake was not understanding that it would be the Pirates who would be overpaying.
Liriano and Ramirez to dump Liriano's salary --- okay. But, adding McGuire seems like a mistake, regardless of how bad Liriano has been.
NH also appears to be trying to have his cake and eat it too. While the only real asset at the major league level that he traded was Melanin (who I also supported trading last week), he has chosen to add a pitcher like Novoa rather than simply using the underperforming veterans (Vogelsong & Locke) that he already has and more of the younger pitchers. He also insisted on getting a major league arm back for Melanon. Frankly, I don't view the additions of Novoa and Riverio as ones which will allow this team to gain ground on the team's in front of them.
So --- my main concern isn't that they have started to sell. My real concerns are:
1) They didn't sell enough. Why not move Freeze and Joyce, neither of whom will be back next year and go with Bell and one of the other prospects (e.g. Moroff, Hansen). Relievers were fetching real returns; why not move Feliz who will not be back next year? Even very average relievers were yielding some return; why not move Nicassio?
2) They traded one too many decent prospects in the Liriano deal and the jury is out regarding who is included in the useless Novoa deal; a pitcher who is not here next year. I generally do not subscribe to the Nutting is cheap drumbeat (always understood though that he was very thrifty), however, selling good prospects to dump a salary doesn't look good.
3) As is now apparent, the Bucs were willing to move some of their better rated prospects. Although I didn't advocate the team adding at the deadline, what type of player would a package of McGuire, Ramirez and a pitcher like Brault have yielded?
4) This off-season. The Pirates will have a good core of position players returning, but will have some really tough issues to deal with if McCutcheon, Kang and Harrison do not show some signs of life before the end of the season. Also, Jaso is a wasted $4 mil next year, and I doubt anyone will take him off the team's hands this off-season. The starting rotation, bullpen and the bench also will all need to be rebuilt. The Bucs will not have much to trade, except prospects, and I doubt they will be major players in free agency. 2017 could be a year of promise, but it could be even more unsettled than 2016.
Liriano and Ramirez to dump Liriano's salary --- okay. But, adding McGuire seems like a mistake, regardless of how bad Liriano has been.
NH also appears to be trying to have his cake and eat it too. While the only real asset at the major league level that he traded was Melanin (who I also supported trading last week), he has chosen to add a pitcher like Novoa rather than simply using the underperforming veterans (Vogelsong & Locke) that he already has and more of the younger pitchers. He also insisted on getting a major league arm back for Melanon. Frankly, I don't view the additions of Novoa and Riverio as ones which will allow this team to gain ground on the team's in front of them.
So --- my main concern isn't that they have started to sell. My real concerns are:
1) They didn't sell enough. Why not move Freeze and Joyce, neither of whom will be back next year and go with Bell and one of the other prospects (e.g. Moroff, Hansen). Relievers were fetching real returns; why not move Feliz who will not be back next year? Even very average relievers were yielding some return; why not move Nicassio?
2) They traded one too many decent prospects in the Liriano deal and the jury is out regarding who is included in the useless Novoa deal; a pitcher who is not here next year. I generally do not subscribe to the Nutting is cheap drumbeat (always understood though that he was very thrifty), however, selling good prospects to dump a salary doesn't look good.
3) As is now apparent, the Bucs were willing to move some of their better rated prospects. Although I didn't advocate the team adding at the deadline, what type of player would a package of McGuire, Ramirez and a pitcher like Brault have yielded?
4) This off-season. The Pirates will have a good core of position players returning, but will have some really tough issues to deal with if McCutcheon, Kang and Harrison do not show some signs of life before the end of the season. Also, Jaso is a wasted $4 mil next year, and I doubt anyone will take him off the team's hands this off-season. The starting rotation, bullpen and the bench also will all need to be rebuilt. The Bucs will not have much to trade, except prospects, and I doubt they will be major players in free agency. 2017 could be a year of promise, but it could be even more unsettled than 2016.
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BuccoVelo
Last Minute Trade Buzz
0D26273A2139200C3B2D2D214E0 wrote: Think people fail to realize how deep the system is, the bucs may seriously end up having a replay of the cam bonifay fiasco with all the guys they have that they won be able to protect on The 40 man roster.
There are literally like 7 OFers blocking Harold Ramirez
There are 3-4 catchers blocking McGuire
The Bucs saved about 17 million and got a controlled cheap live arm.
I will on,y be mad about the trade if they don't use the savings this year to do something befor the waiver wire deadline or in the off season to use that money and also increase the payroll abov arb increases
Then flip them for something! Not for the sake of getting someone to take our guys. We gave up more in this "trade" than most buyers did to load up for the deadline.
I mean they aren't top 100 type prospects. So ma e you could get a bullpen arm for that?
I'm honestly asking as I haven't looked at all the returns on starting pitchers today. And that is the only area the Pirates really need right now if they would just call Bell up.
They were both preseason top-100 in various publications (Ramirez in BA and BP, McGuire in MLB and BP). These aren't guys with little value as trade assets.
There are literally like 7 OFers blocking Harold Ramirez
There are 3-4 catchers blocking McGuire
The Bucs saved about 17 million and got a controlled cheap live arm.
I will on,y be mad about the trade if they don't use the savings this year to do something befor the waiver wire deadline or in the off season to use that money and also increase the payroll abov arb increases
Then flip them for something! Not for the sake of getting someone to take our guys. We gave up more in this "trade" than most buyers did to load up for the deadline.
I mean they aren't top 100 type prospects. So ma e you could get a bullpen arm for that?
I'm honestly asking as I haven't looked at all the returns on starting pitchers today. And that is the only area the Pirates really need right now if they would just call Bell up.
They were both preseason top-100 in various publications (Ramirez in BA and BP, McGuire in MLB and BP). These aren't guys with little value as trade assets.
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Steve19981
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:57 pm
Last Minute Trade Buzz
446675686B6E69664572646468070 wrote: It's officially 2 PTBNL.
Anyone else concerned?
Since Nova is not very good and NH is conservative and careful by nature, I have got to believe that we are not sending them a legitimate top 30 prospect.
Someone please tell me I'm right ... please ...
I would think one in the 15-20 range and one completely off the reservation.
Anyone else concerned?
Since Nova is not very good and NH is conservative and careful by nature, I have got to believe that we are not sending them a legitimate top 30 prospect.
Someone please tell me I'm right ... please ...
I would think one in the 15-20 range and one completely off the reservation.