745954454253440407360 wrote: I dint recall saying anything about "all it will take."
427760606B5260606B6C60050 wrote:
But, a move here and a move there, we at least have a fighting chance.
Yes. That's far better than rolling over and playing dead, I my opinion.
You don't improve by forking what little talent you have to competitors. But, that's what BOB has people sold on. He's broke, you know.
Blue Jays Roster Crunch
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Blue Jays Roster Crunch
4C616C7D7A6B7C3C3F0E0 wrote: If our best trading chips are attractive clubs, what aren't they attractive to the Pirates?
Add talent to them, we'll win.
Remove them from the club, all that remains are the less marketable guys.
That is the recipe for spinning wheel on ice.
It's not like we haven't had to call the tow truck before. We should know this by now.
It's not as though the Pirates are only a few pieces away from having a championship caliber team. If that were the case they would not have been a .317 team last year. Or lost 93 games in 2019. Hayes is the only prospect ready to contribute. Which starting pitchers do you want to lineup up for a must win series? How many dependable relievers must be added? They need 2 top OFers and if Frazier is kept they need a better SS and a better 1Bman. Basically an entire new team of proven, productive free agents plus a handful of Pirate holdovers.
But other GMs can look at the roster and pick out one Pirate here and there who could be a useful addition to a stronger roster. No GM in his right mind would want the Pirates starting rotation. But he might have a need for a 4th starter in his own team. That doesn't mean the Pirates have a strong rotation. The Nats needed a 1Bman and traded for Bell. That doesn't mean the Pirates have a strong infield. The Pirates are so far away from a strong roster that even a fictional free spending Nutting would have a hard time buying everything they need to instantly win. Back in the real world the roster is weak and AAA is bare of impact prospects. So it's back to square one and another rebuild attempt. We don't know if it will succeed but at least someone other than Huntington is in charge now. And the best prospects are at AA or lower. Not much fun for the fans. But that's where we are. Banging your head against a wall and screaming "I WANNA WIN NOW!!!" won't change things.
With all due respect, there you go again. That's known as The We Can't Improve the Entire Roster, So Let's Not Improve It At All Apology.
The Cardinals haven't done much of anything and they're still the best roster in the division.
The other clubs are still better than we are- who isn't? But, a move here and a move there, we at least have a fighting chance.
So, what do we do? We roll over and play dead.
No, there you go again. Ignoring reality and claiming "a move here and a move there, we at least have a fighting chance" to compete with the clubs who are better than we are. You can look at our roster and claim just "a move here and a move there" is all it will take? Are we talking about the same Pirates?
And calling someone an apologist merely for addressing the reality of the situation won't change the situation. I don't apologize for the Pirates. I don't like how they operate. I don't like that they have sunk to their current depth. But if there's any realistic chance of becoming respectable, it won't be a Pollyanna plan to immediately compete with an influx of veterans who we all know Nutting won't pay for. And even if he would, what productive free agent would choose to hitch his wagon to this organization if he was productive enough to get an offer from anyone else? Are 2nd and 3rd tier free agents all this roster needs to compete? Another 4th or 5th starter? A few more relievers with no control? A couple more flawed hitters for the lineup? Another utility infielder? The Pirates have gotten themselves into a bad situation with Nutting's cheapness and NH's failure to properly evaluate and develop talent. There's no guarantee BC will be better but it's the only chance they have and it won't be quick and it won't be easy. So yes, there I go again being realistic.
There you go again, making too much sense.
Add talent to them, we'll win.
Remove them from the club, all that remains are the less marketable guys.
That is the recipe for spinning wheel on ice.
It's not like we haven't had to call the tow truck before. We should know this by now.
It's not as though the Pirates are only a few pieces away from having a championship caliber team. If that were the case they would not have been a .317 team last year. Or lost 93 games in 2019. Hayes is the only prospect ready to contribute. Which starting pitchers do you want to lineup up for a must win series? How many dependable relievers must be added? They need 2 top OFers and if Frazier is kept they need a better SS and a better 1Bman. Basically an entire new team of proven, productive free agents plus a handful of Pirate holdovers.
But other GMs can look at the roster and pick out one Pirate here and there who could be a useful addition to a stronger roster. No GM in his right mind would want the Pirates starting rotation. But he might have a need for a 4th starter in his own team. That doesn't mean the Pirates have a strong rotation. The Nats needed a 1Bman and traded for Bell. That doesn't mean the Pirates have a strong infield. The Pirates are so far away from a strong roster that even a fictional free spending Nutting would have a hard time buying everything they need to instantly win. Back in the real world the roster is weak and AAA is bare of impact prospects. So it's back to square one and another rebuild attempt. We don't know if it will succeed but at least someone other than Huntington is in charge now. And the best prospects are at AA or lower. Not much fun for the fans. But that's where we are. Banging your head against a wall and screaming "I WANNA WIN NOW!!!" won't change things.
With all due respect, there you go again. That's known as The We Can't Improve the Entire Roster, So Let's Not Improve It At All Apology.
The Cardinals haven't done much of anything and they're still the best roster in the division.
The other clubs are still better than we are- who isn't? But, a move here and a move there, we at least have a fighting chance.
So, what do we do? We roll over and play dead.
No, there you go again. Ignoring reality and claiming "a move here and a move there, we at least have a fighting chance" to compete with the clubs who are better than we are. You can look at our roster and claim just "a move here and a move there" is all it will take? Are we talking about the same Pirates?
And calling someone an apologist merely for addressing the reality of the situation won't change the situation. I don't apologize for the Pirates. I don't like how they operate. I don't like that they have sunk to their current depth. But if there's any realistic chance of becoming respectable, it won't be a Pollyanna plan to immediately compete with an influx of veterans who we all know Nutting won't pay for. And even if he would, what productive free agent would choose to hitch his wagon to this organization if he was productive enough to get an offer from anyone else? Are 2nd and 3rd tier free agents all this roster needs to compete? Another 4th or 5th starter? A few more relievers with no control? A couple more flawed hitters for the lineup? Another utility infielder? The Pirates have gotten themselves into a bad situation with Nutting's cheapness and NH's failure to properly evaluate and develop talent. There's no guarantee BC will be better but it's the only chance they have and it won't be quick and it won't be easy. So yes, there I go again being realistic.
There you go again, making too much sense.
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johnfluharty
Blue Jays Roster Crunch
I agree with what the pirates are doing, but there's always a chance that they will be in a perpetual rebuild mode by graduating guys to the majors but not enough and never adding the proper pieces to make a serious run at the world series, continuing to sell the players and add more guys to the lower levels and just rince and repeat forever.
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Bobster21
Blue Jays Roster Crunch
2A2F282E262C352821323439400 wrote: I agree with what the pirates are doing, but there's always a chance that they will be in a perpetual rebuild mode by graduating guys to the majors but not enough and never adding the proper pieces to make a serious run at the world series, continuing to sell the players and add more guys to the lower levels and just rince and repeat forever.
I agree. All we can hope for is that Cherington will do a better job of rebuilding internally so that less will be needed in terms of the type of acquisitions Nutting won't permit. But it's not realistic to expect every hole can be adequately filled from within at the same time. At some point (hopefully), they will find themselves no more than a few players short of a legit contender and will need to address the remaining weaknesses with more than the Vogelsongs, Jasos and Nieses of the world.
I agree. All we can hope for is that Cherington will do a better job of rebuilding internally so that less will be needed in terms of the type of acquisitions Nutting won't permit. But it's not realistic to expect every hole can be adequately filled from within at the same time. At some point (hopefully), they will find themselves no more than a few players short of a legit contender and will need to address the remaining weaknesses with more than the Vogelsongs, Jasos and Nieses of the world.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Blue Jays Roster Crunch
I agree with this take. "Realistic" is knowing that all 30 clubs "re-build." What's different among them is that some have different cycles. The Pirates will probably be one of the shorter cycles, I would think.
The Pirates, right now, are really only building. We've seen it play out before. BOB chose to cut bait rather than to go the distance. I dont expect that, even if they get that far, to be any different.
The Pirates, right now, are really only building. We've seen it play out before. BOB chose to cut bait rather than to go the distance. I dont expect that, even if they get that far, to be any different.
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johnfluharty
Blue Jays Roster Crunch
Their (in)actions after the 2015 season certainly don't inspire much confidence.
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Bobster21
Blue Jays Roster Crunch
6A6F686E666C756861727479000 wrote: Their (in)actions after the 2015 season certainly don't inspire much confidence.
They were cutting costs.
From 2013 to 2014 the payroll increased by about 17 million. From 2014 to 2015 the payroll increased by about 23 million. From 2015 to 2016 the payroll increased by about $80,000. And from then the payroll was slashed each year.
They were cutting costs.
From 2013 to 2014 the payroll increased by about 17 million. From 2014 to 2015 the payroll increased by about 23 million. From 2015 to 2016 the payroll increased by about $80,000. And from then the payroll was slashed each year. -
GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Blue Jays Roster Crunch
Modern day Calvin Griffith.
Blue Jays Roster Crunch
123F32232435226261500 wrote: Their (in)actions after the 2015 season certainly don't inspire much confidence.
They were cutting costs. From 2013 to 2014 the payroll increased by about 17 million. From 2014 to 2015 the payroll increased by about 23 million. From 2015 to 2016 the payroll increased by about $80,000. And from then the payroll was slashed each year.
according to Cotts the 2016 payroll was about 5 million higher on opening day than 2015, the 2016 end of year payroll was a lot lower than end of year 2015.
https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/c ... h-pirates/
edited to fix URL
PIRATES PAYROLLS
Year Opening Day 26/30 Year End 40-man CB Tax 40-man
2020 $ 23,739,815 (30) $ 24,056,794 (29) $ 69,789,757 (30)
2019 $ 74,808,000 (28) $ 78,286,587 (28) $ 83,762,989 (30)
2018 $ 86,340,000 (27) $ 90,579,541 (26) $103,837,992 (27)
2017 $ 95,807,004 (24) $ 95,865,735 (25) $109,460,508 (24)
2016 $ 99,945,500 (20) $ 99,866,170 (23) $109,671,516 (24)
2015 $ 90,053,000 (24) $ 95,889,960 (24) $116,055,536 (22)
2014 $ 71,929,333 (28) $ 78,379,602 (27) $ 96,063,707 (28)
2013 $ 66,805,000 (26) $ 74,608,266 (25) $ 91,301,096 (24)
2012 $ 51,932,333 (30) $ 61,300,313 (29) $ 80,317,027 (27)
They were cutting costs.
From 2013 to 2014 the payroll increased by about 17 million. From 2014 to 2015 the payroll increased by about 23 million. From 2015 to 2016 the payroll increased by about $80,000. And from then the payroll was slashed each year. according to Cotts the 2016 payroll was about 5 million higher on opening day than 2015, the 2016 end of year payroll was a lot lower than end of year 2015.
https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/c ... h-pirates/
edited to fix URL
PIRATES PAYROLLS
Year Opening Day 26/30 Year End 40-man CB Tax 40-man
2020 $ 23,739,815 (30) $ 24,056,794 (29) $ 69,789,757 (30)
2019 $ 74,808,000 (28) $ 78,286,587 (28) $ 83,762,989 (30)
2018 $ 86,340,000 (27) $ 90,579,541 (26) $103,837,992 (27)
2017 $ 95,807,004 (24) $ 95,865,735 (25) $109,460,508 (24)
2016 $ 99,945,500 (20) $ 99,866,170 (23) $109,671,516 (24)
2015 $ 90,053,000 (24) $ 95,889,960 (24) $116,055,536 (22)
2014 $ 71,929,333 (28) $ 78,379,602 (27) $ 96,063,707 (28)
2013 $ 66,805,000 (26) $ 74,608,266 (25) $ 91,301,096 (24)
2012 $ 51,932,333 (30) $ 61,300,313 (29) $ 80,317,027 (27)
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Bobster21
Blue Jays Roster Crunch
4F69687F69790A0 wrote: Their (in)actions after the 2015 season certainly don't inspire much confidence.
They were cutting costs. From 2013 to 2014 the payroll increased by about 17 million. From 2014 to 2015 the payroll increased by about 23 million. From 2015 to 2016 the payroll increased by about $80,000. And from then the payroll was slashed each year.
according to Cotts the 2016 payroll was about 5 million higher on opening day than 2015, the 2016 end of year payroll was a lot lower than end of year 2015.
https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/c ... h-pirates/
edited to fix URL
PIRATES PAYROLLS
Year Opening Day 26/30 Year End 40-man CB Tax 40-man
2020 $ 23,739,815 (30) $ 24,056,794 (29) $ 69,789,757 (30)
2019 $ 74,808,000 (28) $ 78,286,587 (28) $ 83,762,989 (30)
2018 $ 86,340,000 (27) $ 90,579,541 (26) $103,837,992 (27)
2017 $ 95,807,004 (24) $ 95,865,735 (25) $109,460,508 (24)
2016 $ 99,945,500 (20) $ 99,866,170 (23) $109,671,516 (24)
2015 $ 90,053,000 (24) $ 95,889,960 (24) $116,055,536 (22)
2014 $ 71,929,333 (28) $ 78,379,602 (27) $ 96,063,707 (28)
2013 $ 66,805,000 (26) $ 74,608,266 (25) $ 91,301,096 (24)
2012 $ 51,932,333 (30) $ 61,300,313 (29) $ 80,317,027 (27)
I used Spotrac. It's hard to find 2 sites that agree on payroll. But they all indicate the difference between 2015 and 2016 was not good. :'(
They were cutting costs.
From 2013 to 2014 the payroll increased by about 17 million. From 2014 to 2015 the payroll increased by about 23 million. From 2015 to 2016 the payroll increased by about $80,000. And from then the payroll was slashed each year. according to Cotts the 2016 payroll was about 5 million higher on opening day than 2015, the 2016 end of year payroll was a lot lower than end of year 2015.
https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/c ... h-pirates/
edited to fix URL
PIRATES PAYROLLS
Year Opening Day 26/30 Year End 40-man CB Tax 40-man
2020 $ 23,739,815 (30) $ 24,056,794 (29) $ 69,789,757 (30)
2019 $ 74,808,000 (28) $ 78,286,587 (28) $ 83,762,989 (30)
2018 $ 86,340,000 (27) $ 90,579,541 (26) $103,837,992 (27)
2017 $ 95,807,004 (24) $ 95,865,735 (25) $109,460,508 (24)
2016 $ 99,945,500 (20) $ 99,866,170 (23) $109,671,516 (24)
2015 $ 90,053,000 (24) $ 95,889,960 (24) $116,055,536 (22)
2014 $ 71,929,333 (28) $ 78,379,602 (27) $ 96,063,707 (28)
2013 $ 66,805,000 (26) $ 74,608,266 (25) $ 91,301,096 (24)
2012 $ 51,932,333 (30) $ 61,300,313 (29) $ 80,317,027 (27)
I used Spotrac. It's hard to find 2 sites that agree on payroll. But they all indicate the difference between 2015 and 2016 was not good. :'(