774458595A526459425E4542535F58360 wrote: What seems to have happened here? If Nutting agreed to give Cherington more money, then did he refuse to give that money to Huntington? Did Nutting decide that tanking for a few years is necessary, and Huntington refused to do that?
It seems that the 2007 plan was to become a player development juggernaut, and that was undermined by rules that restricted amateur spending, as well as the team being ordinary at developing amateur players they signed. Does it seem like this is news to them?
Nutting apparently started inquiring around the league toward the end of the year, so I'm wondering if that's the first he's heard of the bust-and-boom cycle? I think that's an interesting question, because after taking control of the team in 2007 i think they've projected him as an informed owner rather than a fan who happens to own the team. Is he really so far out of the loop?
I don't think there's any reason to believe Cherington will have a bigger budget. When Nutting had his press conference with Williams, he seemed to reiterate that the Pirates will have a small budget and his only "concession" to fans was that he would do a better job of communicating that. I think there may be some wishful thinking from fans that the hiring of Cherington might coincide with a bigger budget but there has been no indication from any Pirates source of that and Nutting's recent comments suggest the opposite.
Sources: Ben Cherington has accepted Pirates’ GM job
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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DemDog
Sources: Ben Cherington has accepted Pirates’ GM job
587578696E7F68282B1A0 wrote: What seems to have happened here? If Nutting agreed to give Cherington more money, then did he refuse to give that money to Huntington? Did Nutting decide that tanking for a few years is necessary, and Huntington refused to do that?
It seems that the 2007 plan was to become a player development juggernaut, and that was undermined by rules that restricted amateur spending, as well as the team being ordinary at developing amateur players they signed. Does it seem like this is news to them?
Nutting apparently started inquiring around the league toward the end of the year, so I'm wondering if that's the first he's heard of the bust-and-boom cycle? I think that's an interesting question, because after taking control of the team in 2007 i think they've projected him as an informed owner rather than a fan who happens to own the team. Is he really so far out of the loop?
I don't think there's any reason to believe Cherington will have a bigger budget. When Nutting had his press conference with Williams, he seemed to reiterate that the Pirates will have a small budget and his only "concession" to fans was that he would do a better job of communicating that. I think there may be some wishful thinking from fans that the hiring of Cherington might coincide with a bigger budget but there has been no indication from any Pirates source of that and Nutting's recent comments suggest the opposite.
I what you are saying Bobster turns out to be true we Pirate fans have to hope that Cherington can make much better use of those limited funds that the previous executive team did.
It seems that the 2007 plan was to become a player development juggernaut, and that was undermined by rules that restricted amateur spending, as well as the team being ordinary at developing amateur players they signed. Does it seem like this is news to them?
Nutting apparently started inquiring around the league toward the end of the year, so I'm wondering if that's the first he's heard of the bust-and-boom cycle? I think that's an interesting question, because after taking control of the team in 2007 i think they've projected him as an informed owner rather than a fan who happens to own the team. Is he really so far out of the loop?
I don't think there's any reason to believe Cherington will have a bigger budget. When Nutting had his press conference with Williams, he seemed to reiterate that the Pirates will have a small budget and his only "concession" to fans was that he would do a better job of communicating that. I think there may be some wishful thinking from fans that the hiring of Cherington might coincide with a bigger budget but there has been no indication from any Pirates source of that and Nutting's recent comments suggest the opposite.
I what you are saying Bobster turns out to be true we Pirate fans have to hope that Cherington can make much better use of those limited funds that the previous executive team did.
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Bobster21
Sources: Ben Cherington has accepted Pirates’ GM job
58797158737B1C0 wrote: What seems to have happened here? If Nutting agreed to give Cherington more money, then did he refuse to give that money to Huntington? Did Nutting decide that tanking for a few years is necessary, and Huntington refused to do that?
It seems that the 2007 plan was to become a player development juggernaut, and that was undermined by rules that restricted amateur spending, as well as the team being ordinary at developing amateur players they signed. Does it seem like this is news to them?
Nutting apparently started inquiring around the league toward the end of the year, so I'm wondering if that's the first he's heard of the bust-and-boom cycle? I think that's an interesting question, because after taking control of the team in 2007 i think they've projected him as an informed owner rather than a fan who happens to own the team. Is he really so far out of the loop?
I don't think there's any reason to believe Cherington will have a bigger budget. When Nutting had his press conference with Williams, he seemed to reiterate that the Pirates will have a small budget and his only "concession" to fans was that he would do a better job of communicating that. I think there may be some wishful thinking from fans that the hiring of Cherington might coincide with a bigger budget but there has been no indication from any Pirates source of that and Nutting's recent comments suggest the opposite.
I what you are saying Bobster turns out to be true we Pirate fans have to hope that Cherington can make much better use of those limited funds that the previous executive team did.
I believe that is what he was hired to do.
It seems that the 2007 plan was to become a player development juggernaut, and that was undermined by rules that restricted amateur spending, as well as the team being ordinary at developing amateur players they signed. Does it seem like this is news to them?
Nutting apparently started inquiring around the league toward the end of the year, so I'm wondering if that's the first he's heard of the bust-and-boom cycle? I think that's an interesting question, because after taking control of the team in 2007 i think they've projected him as an informed owner rather than a fan who happens to own the team. Is he really so far out of the loop?
I don't think there's any reason to believe Cherington will have a bigger budget. When Nutting had his press conference with Williams, he seemed to reiterate that the Pirates will have a small budget and his only "concession" to fans was that he would do a better job of communicating that. I think there may be some wishful thinking from fans that the hiring of Cherington might coincide with a bigger budget but there has been no indication from any Pirates source of that and Nutting's recent comments suggest the opposite.
I what you are saying Bobster turns out to be true we Pirate fans have to hope that Cherington can make much better use of those limited funds that the previous executive team did.
I believe that is what he was hired to do.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Sources: Ben Cherington has accepted Pirates’ GM job
4050516670707C130 wrote: Good News: Cherington has waited for an opportunity to build an organization from the "ground up"
Good News: Cherington has drafted well in Boston bringing a lot of young talent to the Red Sox who shined last year after his departure
Good News: Coonelly is gone! And Williams does not seem like a guy who will mess daily with his GM's strategies
Good News?: We'll get the right manager?
I'm going out on a limb here as I haven't seen it reported anywhere, but I have a feeling that NH has still been included in the process of who might replace him. His history with Cherington would serve me to believe that he was also NH's guy. And while we have a consulting firm and everyone else who was involved (and he obviously didn't interview his potential replacements), I think NH's opinion was included at some level in the decision.
Personally I see this as a positive as it might help maintain some continuity within the organization. And to me lack of continuity is the biggest potential problem when an organization goes through such a major shake-up at the top. That said, I think we'll see Cherington be more aggressive than Neal (hard not to be) and he's going to put some of his people in critical spots (bye, bye Kyle Stark).
I am also in what seems to be a huge minority who thinks that the MLB group is just not that bad. We have some really good pieces to build around on offensive. But we need some pitching, both SP and BP, really bad. And we need some of the current pitchers to take a step forward (we were awfully good in May before Taillon went down). But with the right additions, I think we can be much more competitive than most of the voices I'm hearing.
Good News: Coonelly is gone! I honestly think this is huge!
I don't think the core is bad at all. In another organization it might make sense to build around. But what the Pirates lack will be very expensive. That means they will plug holes rather than build.
I guess it depends on our goals: the team can possibly stay in a WC race next year but would have no real prospect of winning anything. Or plan for a bigger future by blowing this up. Unless Nutting has promised a material up-grade in payroll, I tend to favor starting all over.
Who do you consider core?
If there was a good pitching staff I would have no problem going into this season with the current team. Every position could be upgraded and depending on trade/FA opportunities I’d love to see some upgrades. The lineup is not the reason I lean towards starting over, but this lineup had no chance to cover for a weak staff.
I guess my definition of core is different. Core are building pieces. This is a rebuild, whether Nutting wants to admit it or not. Farm system lacks talent; we have little pitching and somehow we have to get some pieces. Reclamation projects (which I see coming on the mound) are band aids, not long term solutions. Taillon I don't classify as core. He has injury after injury and cannot be counted on sadly moving forward. The rest of our pitchers are fours or fives. The bullpen is worse. We don't have a catcher; Bell won't be here in two years; Polanco is an injury waiting to happen and isn't a core player ... Marte is destined to be dealt to cut payroll and get much needed influx of talent ...
Core to me is Reynolds and Newman ... maybe Frazier.
I don’t disagree. But I’d say that “core” could mean different things depending on where a team is short, medium, long term.
If this lineup wore Cardinal uniforms instead of Pirates I could see the organization building around most of the lineup because they would add the pitching needed (either internally or externally) to make this a competitive team. The Pirates are not going to be able to build a quality staff, so there is nothing to build around this lineup. In the end I agree with you: the Pirates need to tear it down. But another organization, maybe would not need to. There is some decent talent.
Good News: Cherington has drafted well in Boston bringing a lot of young talent to the Red Sox who shined last year after his departure
Good News: Coonelly is gone! And Williams does not seem like a guy who will mess daily with his GM's strategies
Good News?: We'll get the right manager?
I'm going out on a limb here as I haven't seen it reported anywhere, but I have a feeling that NH has still been included in the process of who might replace him. His history with Cherington would serve me to believe that he was also NH's guy. And while we have a consulting firm and everyone else who was involved (and he obviously didn't interview his potential replacements), I think NH's opinion was included at some level in the decision.
Personally I see this as a positive as it might help maintain some continuity within the organization. And to me lack of continuity is the biggest potential problem when an organization goes through such a major shake-up at the top. That said, I think we'll see Cherington be more aggressive than Neal (hard not to be) and he's going to put some of his people in critical spots (bye, bye Kyle Stark).
I am also in what seems to be a huge minority who thinks that the MLB group is just not that bad. We have some really good pieces to build around on offensive. But we need some pitching, both SP and BP, really bad. And we need some of the current pitchers to take a step forward (we were awfully good in May before Taillon went down). But with the right additions, I think we can be much more competitive than most of the voices I'm hearing.
Good News: Coonelly is gone! I honestly think this is huge!
I don't think the core is bad at all. In another organization it might make sense to build around. But what the Pirates lack will be very expensive. That means they will plug holes rather than build.
I guess it depends on our goals: the team can possibly stay in a WC race next year but would have no real prospect of winning anything. Or plan for a bigger future by blowing this up. Unless Nutting has promised a material up-grade in payroll, I tend to favor starting all over.
Who do you consider core?
If there was a good pitching staff I would have no problem going into this season with the current team. Every position could be upgraded and depending on trade/FA opportunities I’d love to see some upgrades. The lineup is not the reason I lean towards starting over, but this lineup had no chance to cover for a weak staff.
I guess my definition of core is different. Core are building pieces. This is a rebuild, whether Nutting wants to admit it or not. Farm system lacks talent; we have little pitching and somehow we have to get some pieces. Reclamation projects (which I see coming on the mound) are band aids, not long term solutions. Taillon I don't classify as core. He has injury after injury and cannot be counted on sadly moving forward. The rest of our pitchers are fours or fives. The bullpen is worse. We don't have a catcher; Bell won't be here in two years; Polanco is an injury waiting to happen and isn't a core player ... Marte is destined to be dealt to cut payroll and get much needed influx of talent ...
Core to me is Reynolds and Newman ... maybe Frazier.
I don’t disagree. But I’d say that “core” could mean different things depending on where a team is short, medium, long term.
If this lineup wore Cardinal uniforms instead of Pirates I could see the organization building around most of the lineup because they would add the pitching needed (either internally or externally) to make this a competitive team. The Pirates are not going to be able to build a quality staff, so there is nothing to build around this lineup. In the end I agree with you: the Pirates need to tear it down. But another organization, maybe would not need to. There is some decent talent.
Sources: Ben Cherington has accepted Pirates’ GM job
05362A2B2820162B302C3730212D2A440 wrote: What seems to have happened here? If Nutting agreed to give Cherington more money, then did he refuse to give that money to Huntington? Did Nutting decide that tanking for a few years is necessary, and Huntington refused to do that?
It seems that the 2007 plan was to become a player development juggernaut, and that was undermined by rules that restricted amateur spending, as well as the team being ordinary at developing amateur players they signed. Does it seem like this is news to them?
Nutting apparently started inquiring around the league toward the end of the year, so I'm wondering if that's the first he's heard of the bust-and-boom cycle? I think that's an interesting question, because after taking control of the team in 2007 i think they've projected him as an informed owner rather than a fan who happens to own the team. Is he really so far out of the loop?
I doubt Bob gave Cherrington more money to play with. However, its usually the case that the guy incoming gets more than the outgoing guy.
It seems that the 2007 plan was to become a player development juggernaut, and that was undermined by rules that restricted amateur spending, as well as the team being ordinary at developing amateur players they signed. Does it seem like this is news to them?
Nutting apparently started inquiring around the league toward the end of the year, so I'm wondering if that's the first he's heard of the bust-and-boom cycle? I think that's an interesting question, because after taking control of the team in 2007 i think they've projected him as an informed owner rather than a fan who happens to own the team. Is he really so far out of the loop?
I doubt Bob gave Cherrington more money to play with. However, its usually the case that the guy incoming gets more than the outgoing guy.
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
Sources: Ben Cherington has accepted Pirates’ GM job
735E53424554430300310 wrote: What seems to have happened here? If Nutting agreed to give Cherington more money, then did he refuse to give that money to Huntington? Did Nutting decide that tanking for a few years is necessary, and Huntington refused to do that?
It seems that the 2007 plan was to become a player development juggernaut, and that was undermined by rules that restricted amateur spending, as well as the team being ordinary at developing amateur players they signed. Does it seem like this is news to them?
Nutting apparently started inquiring around the league toward the end of the year, so I'm wondering if that's the first he's heard of the bust-and-boom cycle? I think that's an interesting question, because after taking control of the team in 2007 i think they've projected him as an informed owner rather than a fan who happens to own the team. Is he really so far out of the loop?
I don't think there's any reason to believe Cherington will have a bigger budget. When Nutting had his press conference with Williams, he seemed to reiterate that the Pirates will have a small budget and his only "concession" to fans was that he would do a better job of communicating that. I think there may be some wishful thinking from fans that the hiring of Cherington might coincide with a bigger budget but there has been no indication from any Pirates source of that and Nutting's recent comments suggest the opposite.
I'm not on the train that says we have to spend like mad to compete. I think we can compete with a low payroll at least until we can build this organization. We have to be smart and find and develope those players that can make us competitive. We have to recognize our talent and other teams earlier an get them to the big league faster. We must make smart trades. We have to quit doing what everyone else is doing. We must find talent where others arent. It's not going to be easy but if this GM is smart and willing to work hard it can be done with a low payroll. San Diego and Philedelphia spent money foolishly last year and they didn't qualify for the playoffs. That is not something the Pirates can or should do. We have the same population as St. Louis and we should be able to compete with them and if we can compete with them we can compete with anyone.
It seems that the 2007 plan was to become a player development juggernaut, and that was undermined by rules that restricted amateur spending, as well as the team being ordinary at developing amateur players they signed. Does it seem like this is news to them?
Nutting apparently started inquiring around the league toward the end of the year, so I'm wondering if that's the first he's heard of the bust-and-boom cycle? I think that's an interesting question, because after taking control of the team in 2007 i think they've projected him as an informed owner rather than a fan who happens to own the team. Is he really so far out of the loop?
I don't think there's any reason to believe Cherington will have a bigger budget. When Nutting had his press conference with Williams, he seemed to reiterate that the Pirates will have a small budget and his only "concession" to fans was that he would do a better job of communicating that. I think there may be some wishful thinking from fans that the hiring of Cherington might coincide with a bigger budget but there has been no indication from any Pirates source of that and Nutting's recent comments suggest the opposite.
I'm not on the train that says we have to spend like mad to compete. I think we can compete with a low payroll at least until we can build this organization. We have to be smart and find and develope those players that can make us competitive. We have to recognize our talent and other teams earlier an get them to the big league faster. We must make smart trades. We have to quit doing what everyone else is doing. We must find talent where others arent. It's not going to be easy but if this GM is smart and willing to work hard it can be done with a low payroll. San Diego and Philedelphia spent money foolishly last year and they didn't qualify for the playoffs. That is not something the Pirates can or should do. We have the same population as St. Louis and we should be able to compete with them and if we can compete with them we can compete with anyone.
Sources: Ben Cherington has accepted Pirates’ GM job
2A323037372031362B2A3C590 wrote: What seems to have happened here? If Nutting agreed to give Cherington more money, then did he refuse to give that money to Huntington? Did Nutting decide that tanking for a few years is necessary, and Huntington refused to do that?
It seems that the 2007 plan was to become a player development juggernaut, and that was undermined by rules that restricted amateur spending, as well as the team being ordinary at developing amateur players they signed. Does it seem like this is news to them?
Nutting apparently started inquiring around the league toward the end of the year, so I'm wondering if that's the first he's heard of the bust-and-boom cycle? I think that's an interesting question, because after taking control of the team in 2007 i think they've projected him as an informed owner rather than a fan who happens to own the team. Is he really so far out of the loop?
I don't think there's any reason to believe Cherington will have a bigger budget. When Nutting had his press conference with Williams, he seemed to reiterate that the Pirates will have a small budget and his only "concession" to fans was that he would do a better job of communicating that. I think there may be some wishful thinking from fans that the hiring of Cherington might coincide with a bigger budget but there has been no indication from any Pirates source of that and Nutting's recent comments suggest the opposite.
I'm not on the train that says we have to spend like mad to compete. I think we can compete with a low payroll at least until we can build this organization. We have to be smart and find and develope those players that can make us competitive. We have to recognize our talent and other teams earlier an get them to the big league faster. We must make smart trades. We have to quit doing what everyone else is doing. We must find talent where others arent. It's not going to be easy but if this GM is smart and willing to work hard it can be done with a low payroll. San Diego and Philedelphia spent money foolishly last year and they didn't qualify for the playoffs. That is not something the Pirates can or should do. We have the same population as St. Louis and we should be able to compete with them and if we can compete with them we can compete with anyone.
I see what you are saying and agree ton a certain extent. But, when I see similar small market teams put down money to bring in talent to compete, it drives me nuts. We aren't close to the average spent. We lag behind. We have few assets to trade that bring in value. So the smart deal right now isn't there. If you are talking about Marte to XXX for two top 10 prospects, then I agree. Smart deal would have been Vasquez to LAD at the TDL before the shit hit the fan for Dustin May or Ruiz and something else, not Lux, who NH was fixated on. I won't get into the Archer debacle.
Cherrington has a tract record of bringing in good prospects via the draft with an organization that isn't picking top 5. That gives me hope for the system. It's development that is comes down to. But, until then to get this fan base interested, there needs to be some increase in spending (not all reclamation projects) to get fans to the seats. If not, you won't get crowds and then payroll continues to go down. This is the trend of Nutting. I don't want to be told by ownership that we won't try to win by not spending some degree of money to improve the on field product when Minnesota, Milwaukee, and now Cincy is doing it.
It seems that the 2007 plan was to become a player development juggernaut, and that was undermined by rules that restricted amateur spending, as well as the team being ordinary at developing amateur players they signed. Does it seem like this is news to them?
Nutting apparently started inquiring around the league toward the end of the year, so I'm wondering if that's the first he's heard of the bust-and-boom cycle? I think that's an interesting question, because after taking control of the team in 2007 i think they've projected him as an informed owner rather than a fan who happens to own the team. Is he really so far out of the loop?
I don't think there's any reason to believe Cherington will have a bigger budget. When Nutting had his press conference with Williams, he seemed to reiterate that the Pirates will have a small budget and his only "concession" to fans was that he would do a better job of communicating that. I think there may be some wishful thinking from fans that the hiring of Cherington might coincide with a bigger budget but there has been no indication from any Pirates source of that and Nutting's recent comments suggest the opposite.
I'm not on the train that says we have to spend like mad to compete. I think we can compete with a low payroll at least until we can build this organization. We have to be smart and find and develope those players that can make us competitive. We have to recognize our talent and other teams earlier an get them to the big league faster. We must make smart trades. We have to quit doing what everyone else is doing. We must find talent where others arent. It's not going to be easy but if this GM is smart and willing to work hard it can be done with a low payroll. San Diego and Philedelphia spent money foolishly last year and they didn't qualify for the playoffs. That is not something the Pirates can or should do. We have the same population as St. Louis and we should be able to compete with them and if we can compete with them we can compete with anyone.
I see what you are saying and agree ton a certain extent. But, when I see similar small market teams put down money to bring in talent to compete, it drives me nuts. We aren't close to the average spent. We lag behind. We have few assets to trade that bring in value. So the smart deal right now isn't there. If you are talking about Marte to XXX for two top 10 prospects, then I agree. Smart deal would have been Vasquez to LAD at the TDL before the shit hit the fan for Dustin May or Ruiz and something else, not Lux, who NH was fixated on. I won't get into the Archer debacle.
Cherrington has a tract record of bringing in good prospects via the draft with an organization that isn't picking top 5. That gives me hope for the system. It's development that is comes down to. But, until then to get this fan base interested, there needs to be some increase in spending (not all reclamation projects) to get fans to the seats. If not, you won't get crowds and then payroll continues to go down. This is the trend of Nutting. I don't want to be told by ownership that we won't try to win by not spending some degree of money to improve the on field product when Minnesota, Milwaukee, and now Cincy is doing it.
Sources: Ben Cherington has accepted Pirates’ GM job
7A6A6B5C4A4A46290 wrote: What seems to have happened here? If Nutting agreed to give Cherington more money, then did he refuse to give that money to Huntington? Did Nutting decide that tanking for a few years is necessary, and Huntington refused to do that?
It seems that the 2007 plan was to become a player development juggernaut, and that was undermined by rules that restricted amateur spending, as well as the team being ordinary at developing amateur players they signed. Does it seem like this is news to them?
Nutting apparently started inquiring around the league toward the end of the year, so I'm wondering if that's the first he's heard of the bust-and-boom cycle? I think that's an interesting question, because after taking control of the team in 2007 i think they've projected him as an informed owner rather than a fan who happens to own the team. Is he really so far out of the loop?
I don't think there's any reason to believe Cherington will have a bigger budget. When Nutting had his press conference with Williams, he seemed to reiterate that the Pirates will have a small budget and his only "concession" to fans was that he would do a better job of communicating that. I think there may be some wishful thinking from fans that the hiring of Cherington might coincide with a bigger budget but there has been no indication from any Pirates source of that and Nutting's recent comments suggest the opposite.
I'm not on the train that says we have to spend like mad to compete. I think we can compete with a low payroll at least until we can build this organization. We have to be smart and find and develope those players that can make us competitive. We have to recognize our talent and other teams earlier an get them to the big league faster. We must make smart trades. We have to quit doing what everyone else is doing. We must find talent where others arent. It's not going to be easy but if this GM is smart and willing to work hard it can be done with a low payroll. San Diego and Philedelphia spent money foolishly last year and they didn't qualify for the playoffs. That is not something the Pirates can or should do. We have the same population as St. Louis and we should be able to compete with them and if we can compete with them we can compete with anyone.
I see what you are saying and agree ton a certain extent. But, when I see similar small market teams put down money to bring in talent to compete, it drives me nuts. We aren't close to the average spent. We lag behind. [highlight]We have few assets to trade that bring in value.[/highlight] So the smart deal right now isn't there. If you are talking about Marte to XXX for two top 10 prospects, then I agree. Smart deal would have been Vasquez to LAD at the TDL before the shit hit the fan for Dustin May or Ruiz and something else, not Lux, who NH was fixated on. I won't get into the Archer debacle.
Cherrington has a tract record of bringing in good prospects via the draft with an organization that isn't picking top 5. That gives me hope for the system. It's development that is comes down to. But, until then to get this fan base interested, there needs to be some increase in spending (not all reclamation projects) to get fans to the seats. If not, you won't get crowds and then payroll continues to go down. This is the trend of Nutting. I don't want to be told by ownership that we won't try to win by not spending some degree of money to improve the on field product when Minnesota, Milwaukee, and now Cincy is doing it.
Few assets to trade that bring value. - that in a nutshell shows why NH and team needed to go.
It seems that the 2007 plan was to become a player development juggernaut, and that was undermined by rules that restricted amateur spending, as well as the team being ordinary at developing amateur players they signed. Does it seem like this is news to them?
Nutting apparently started inquiring around the league toward the end of the year, so I'm wondering if that's the first he's heard of the bust-and-boom cycle? I think that's an interesting question, because after taking control of the team in 2007 i think they've projected him as an informed owner rather than a fan who happens to own the team. Is he really so far out of the loop?
I don't think there's any reason to believe Cherington will have a bigger budget. When Nutting had his press conference with Williams, he seemed to reiterate that the Pirates will have a small budget and his only "concession" to fans was that he would do a better job of communicating that. I think there may be some wishful thinking from fans that the hiring of Cherington might coincide with a bigger budget but there has been no indication from any Pirates source of that and Nutting's recent comments suggest the opposite.
I'm not on the train that says we have to spend like mad to compete. I think we can compete with a low payroll at least until we can build this organization. We have to be smart and find and develope those players that can make us competitive. We have to recognize our talent and other teams earlier an get them to the big league faster. We must make smart trades. We have to quit doing what everyone else is doing. We must find talent where others arent. It's not going to be easy but if this GM is smart and willing to work hard it can be done with a low payroll. San Diego and Philedelphia spent money foolishly last year and they didn't qualify for the playoffs. That is not something the Pirates can or should do. We have the same population as St. Louis and we should be able to compete with them and if we can compete with them we can compete with anyone.
I see what you are saying and agree ton a certain extent. But, when I see similar small market teams put down money to bring in talent to compete, it drives me nuts. We aren't close to the average spent. We lag behind. [highlight]We have few assets to trade that bring in value.[/highlight] So the smart deal right now isn't there. If you are talking about Marte to XXX for two top 10 prospects, then I agree. Smart deal would have been Vasquez to LAD at the TDL before the shit hit the fan for Dustin May or Ruiz and something else, not Lux, who NH was fixated on. I won't get into the Archer debacle.
Cherrington has a tract record of bringing in good prospects via the draft with an organization that isn't picking top 5. That gives me hope for the system. It's development that is comes down to. But, until then to get this fan base interested, there needs to be some increase in spending (not all reclamation projects) to get fans to the seats. If not, you won't get crowds and then payroll continues to go down. This is the trend of Nutting. I don't want to be told by ownership that we won't try to win by not spending some degree of money to improve the on field product when Minnesota, Milwaukee, and now Cincy is doing it.
Few assets to trade that bring value. - that in a nutshell shows why NH and team needed to go.
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Bobster21
Sources: Ben Cherington has accepted Pirates’ GM job
5242437462626E010 wrote: What seems to have happened here? If Nutting agreed to give Cherington more money, then did he refuse to give that money to Huntington? Did Nutting decide that tanking for a few years is necessary, and Huntington refused to do that?
It seems that the 2007 plan was to become a player development juggernaut, and that was undermined by rules that restricted amateur spending, as well as the team being ordinary at developing amateur players they signed. Does it seem like this is news to them?
Nutting apparently started inquiring around the league toward the end of the year, so I'm wondering if that's the first he's heard of the bust-and-boom cycle? I think that's an interesting question, because after taking control of the team in 2007 i think they've projected him as an informed owner rather than a fan who happens to own the team. Is he really so far out of the loop?
I don't think there's any reason to believe Cherington will have a bigger budget. When Nutting had his press conference with Williams, he seemed to reiterate that the Pirates will have a small budget and his only "concession" to fans was that he would do a better job of communicating that. I think there may be some wishful thinking from fans that the hiring of Cherington might coincide with a bigger budget but there has been no indication from any Pirates source of that and Nutting's recent comments suggest the opposite.
I'm not on the train that says we have to spend like mad to compete. I think we can compete with a low payroll at least until we can build this organization. We have to be smart and find and develope those players that can make us competitive. We have to recognize our talent and other teams earlier an get them to the big league faster. We must make smart trades. We have to quit doing what everyone else is doing. We must find talent where others arent. It's not going to be easy but if this GM is smart and willing to work hard it can be done with a low payroll. San Diego and Philedelphia spent money foolishly last year and they didn't qualify for the playoffs. That is not something the Pirates can or should do. We have the same population as St. Louis and we should be able to compete with them and if we can compete with them we can compete with anyone.
I see what you are saying and agree ton a certain extent. But, when I see similar small market teams put down money to bring in talent to compete, it drives me nuts. We aren't close to the average spent. We lag behind. We have few assets to trade that bring in value. So the smart deal right now isn't there. If you are talking about Marte to XXX for two top 10 prospects, then I agree. Smart deal would have been Vasquez to LAD at the TDL before the shit hit the fan for Dustin May or Ruiz and something else, not Lux, who NH was fixated on. I won't get into the Archer debacle.
Cherrington has a tract record of bringing in good prospects via the draft with an organization that isn't picking top 5. That gives me hope for the system. It's development that is comes down to. But, until then to get this fan base interested, there needs to be some increase in spending (not all reclamation projects) to get fans to the seats. If not, you won't get crowds and then payroll continues to go down. This is the trend of Nutting. I don't want to be told by ownership that we won't try to win by not spending some degree of money to improve the on field product when Minnesota, Milwaukee, and now Cincy is doing it.
I don't believe anyone expects the Pirates to spend like mad. But a good example of their spending woes was in 2016 after setting the franchise attendance record in 2015 with a competitive team and still being below the MLB average payroll and having been assured that the Pirates would "spend when the time was right" when they had needs to fill at 1B and starting pitching and went as low budget as possible to fill them with Jaso and Vogelsong. Not only do they not sign expensive free agents but they also don't trade for productive players who come with average or larger contracts. So in order to keep the payroll at a minimum, they dumpster dive and the result predictably hurts the team.
I think what fans hope for in the new regime is a willingness to fill needs when appropriate even if it means inching closer to the MLB average payroll instead of moving players to ensure a spot near the bottom of MLB in that department. The biggest priority is to draft, develop and trade for prospects who will become good MLB players. But it's not realistic to expect every need can be filled that way at the same time. There comes a time when 1 or 2 holes remain and can be the difference between fielding a legit contender or trying to get by on the cheap with inadequate talent via dumpster diving. This is where a willingness to spend more is needed. But Nutting's remarks about merely doing a better job of communicating why they don't spend were not encouraging. I'm hopeful Cherington will be much better than NH at identifying and developing prospects. But there will come a time when he needs a couple productive veterans to get the team over the hump. I hope he can convince Nutting to fill such needs. NH could not (if he even tried).
It seems that the 2007 plan was to become a player development juggernaut, and that was undermined by rules that restricted amateur spending, as well as the team being ordinary at developing amateur players they signed. Does it seem like this is news to them?
Nutting apparently started inquiring around the league toward the end of the year, so I'm wondering if that's the first he's heard of the bust-and-boom cycle? I think that's an interesting question, because after taking control of the team in 2007 i think they've projected him as an informed owner rather than a fan who happens to own the team. Is he really so far out of the loop?
I don't think there's any reason to believe Cherington will have a bigger budget. When Nutting had his press conference with Williams, he seemed to reiterate that the Pirates will have a small budget and his only "concession" to fans was that he would do a better job of communicating that. I think there may be some wishful thinking from fans that the hiring of Cherington might coincide with a bigger budget but there has been no indication from any Pirates source of that and Nutting's recent comments suggest the opposite.
I'm not on the train that says we have to spend like mad to compete. I think we can compete with a low payroll at least until we can build this organization. We have to be smart and find and develope those players that can make us competitive. We have to recognize our talent and other teams earlier an get them to the big league faster. We must make smart trades. We have to quit doing what everyone else is doing. We must find talent where others arent. It's not going to be easy but if this GM is smart and willing to work hard it can be done with a low payroll. San Diego and Philedelphia spent money foolishly last year and they didn't qualify for the playoffs. That is not something the Pirates can or should do. We have the same population as St. Louis and we should be able to compete with them and if we can compete with them we can compete with anyone.
I see what you are saying and agree ton a certain extent. But, when I see similar small market teams put down money to bring in talent to compete, it drives me nuts. We aren't close to the average spent. We lag behind. We have few assets to trade that bring in value. So the smart deal right now isn't there. If you are talking about Marte to XXX for two top 10 prospects, then I agree. Smart deal would have been Vasquez to LAD at the TDL before the shit hit the fan for Dustin May or Ruiz and something else, not Lux, who NH was fixated on. I won't get into the Archer debacle.
Cherrington has a tract record of bringing in good prospects via the draft with an organization that isn't picking top 5. That gives me hope for the system. It's development that is comes down to. But, until then to get this fan base interested, there needs to be some increase in spending (not all reclamation projects) to get fans to the seats. If not, you won't get crowds and then payroll continues to go down. This is the trend of Nutting. I don't want to be told by ownership that we won't try to win by not spending some degree of money to improve the on field product when Minnesota, Milwaukee, and now Cincy is doing it.
I don't believe anyone expects the Pirates to spend like mad. But a good example of their spending woes was in 2016 after setting the franchise attendance record in 2015 with a competitive team and still being below the MLB average payroll and having been assured that the Pirates would "spend when the time was right" when they had needs to fill at 1B and starting pitching and went as low budget as possible to fill them with Jaso and Vogelsong. Not only do they not sign expensive free agents but they also don't trade for productive players who come with average or larger contracts. So in order to keep the payroll at a minimum, they dumpster dive and the result predictably hurts the team.
I think what fans hope for in the new regime is a willingness to fill needs when appropriate even if it means inching closer to the MLB average payroll instead of moving players to ensure a spot near the bottom of MLB in that department. The biggest priority is to draft, develop and trade for prospects who will become good MLB players. But it's not realistic to expect every need can be filled that way at the same time. There comes a time when 1 or 2 holes remain and can be the difference between fielding a legit contender or trying to get by on the cheap with inadequate talent via dumpster diving. This is where a willingness to spend more is needed. But Nutting's remarks about merely doing a better job of communicating why they don't spend were not encouraging. I'm hopeful Cherington will be much better than NH at identifying and developing prospects. But there will come a time when he needs a couple productive veterans to get the team over the hump. I hope he can convince Nutting to fill such needs. NH could not (if he even tried).
Sources: Ben Cherington has accepted Pirates’ GM job
It will be interesting to see what Cherington says today about his thoughts on how they proceed.