577A77666170672724150 wrote: Man, sure looks down right bad with Francisco in the playoffs with Jays, and Bucs on outside...This deal has to be one of the worst from the desk of Neal Huntington... >:(
Horrible trade he was worthless to us but he certainly was worth a lot to other clubs and NH should have know that, that's his job. His stock has went down what other team would want this guy in their FO.
Yes, from a "trade" perspective it was horrible. But this was not a trade in the sense that NH thought he was getting a fair return. It was strictly a salary dump. Toronto was willing to pay the salary of an inconsistent and struggling Liriano in exchange for McGuire and Ramirez. For the Pirates, the loss of Liriano was addition by subtraction and the prospects were surrendered so that Toronto paid Liriano. Hutchison was unwanted by Toronto and appears to have been the throw in so that NH could deny it was strictly a salary dump, although he admitted that was "part of the motivation." (I'm guessing that part was about 98% of the motivation.) I hate the deal from the perspective that a team with one of MLB's lowest payrolls should not sacrifice prospects to further reduce that payroll. But I don't judge the "trade" in terms of the return NH received because all he really wanted from Toronto was for them to pay Liriano.
Bobster I agree with everything you've said there. For me the absolute worst part about the Liriano trade is the unequivocal reveal that the Nutting ownership puts money above winning. I can no longer live in blissful denial or have the ignorant optimism that I'd had before.
About that Liriano trade...
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
About that Liriano trade...
6246525A5F330 wrote: Man, sure looks down right bad with Francisco in the playoffs with Jays, and Bucs on outside...This deal has to be one of the worst from the desk of Neal Huntington... >:(
Horrible trade he was worthless to us but he certainly was worth a lot to other clubs and NH should have know that, that's his job. His stock has went down what other team would want this guy in their FO.
Yes, from a "trade" perspective it was horrible. But this was not a trade in the sense that NH thought he was getting a fair return. It was strictly a salary dump. Toronto was willing to pay the salary of an inconsistent and struggling Liriano in exchange for McGuire and Ramirez. For the Pirates, the loss of Liriano was addition by subtraction and the prospects were surrendered so that Toronto paid Liriano. Hutchison was unwanted by Toronto and appears to have been the throw in so that NH could deny it was strictly a salary dump, although he admitted that was "part of the motivation." (I'm guessing that part was about 98% of the motivation.) I hate the deal from the perspective that a team with one of MLB's lowest payrolls should not sacrifice prospects to further reduce that payroll. But I don't judge the "trade" in terms of the return NH received because all he really wanted from Toronto was for them to pay Liriano.
Bobster I agree with everything you've said there. For me the absolute worst part about the Liriano trade is the unequivocal reveal that the Nutting ownership puts money above winning. I can no longer live in blissful denial or have the ignorant optimism that I'd had before.
This has been his MO the entire time. He can try to sell the fact they are trying to put a team that is capable of winning a title, but in all reality, its not that close based on the crap signed off the bone pile.
Liriano was trash this year and deserved to be moved. NH is trying to sell Hutchinson as a quality arm, but people who know baseball aren't buying nor should they. I wish he would admit it was a salary dump because it was.
Now, if financial flexibility is something ownership wants, but they want to put together a team that can win it, that money has to be reinvested. If somehow (not faithful on this one), they manage to get a difference maker with that saved money, then the deal doesn't look as bad. If they continue to grab bone pile talents, then they lose all credibility on the things they are selling.
Horrible trade he was worthless to us but he certainly was worth a lot to other clubs and NH should have know that, that's his job. His stock has went down what other team would want this guy in their FO.
Yes, from a "trade" perspective it was horrible. But this was not a trade in the sense that NH thought he was getting a fair return. It was strictly a salary dump. Toronto was willing to pay the salary of an inconsistent and struggling Liriano in exchange for McGuire and Ramirez. For the Pirates, the loss of Liriano was addition by subtraction and the prospects were surrendered so that Toronto paid Liriano. Hutchison was unwanted by Toronto and appears to have been the throw in so that NH could deny it was strictly a salary dump, although he admitted that was "part of the motivation." (I'm guessing that part was about 98% of the motivation.) I hate the deal from the perspective that a team with one of MLB's lowest payrolls should not sacrifice prospects to further reduce that payroll. But I don't judge the "trade" in terms of the return NH received because all he really wanted from Toronto was for them to pay Liriano.
Bobster I agree with everything you've said there. For me the absolute worst part about the Liriano trade is the unequivocal reveal that the Nutting ownership puts money above winning. I can no longer live in blissful denial or have the ignorant optimism that I'd had before.
This has been his MO the entire time. He can try to sell the fact they are trying to put a team that is capable of winning a title, but in all reality, its not that close based on the crap signed off the bone pile.
Liriano was trash this year and deserved to be moved. NH is trying to sell Hutchinson as a quality arm, but people who know baseball aren't buying nor should they. I wish he would admit it was a salary dump because it was.
Now, if financial flexibility is something ownership wants, but they want to put together a team that can win it, that money has to be reinvested. If somehow (not faithful on this one), they manage to get a difference maker with that saved money, then the deal doesn't look as bad. If they continue to grab bone pile talents, then they lose all credibility on the things they are selling.
About that Liriano trade...
0D1D1C2B3D3D315E0 wrote: Man, sure looks down right bad with Francisco in the playoffs with Jays, and Bucs on outside...This deal has to be one of the worst from the desk of Neal Huntington... >:(
Horrible trade he was worthless to us but he certainly was worth a lot to other clubs and NH should have know that, that's his job. His stock has went down what other team would want this guy in their FO.
Yes, from a "trade" perspective it was horrible. But this was not a trade in the sense that NH thought he was getting a fair return. It was strictly a salary dump. Toronto was willing to pay the salary of an inconsistent and struggling Liriano in exchange for McGuire and Ramirez. For the Pirates, the loss of Liriano was addition by subtraction and the prospects were surrendered so that Toronto paid Liriano. Hutchison was unwanted by Toronto and appears to have been the throw in so that NH could deny it was strictly a salary dump, although he admitted that was "part of the motivation." (I'm guessing that part was about 98% of the motivation.) I hate the deal from the perspective that a team with one of MLB's lowest payrolls should not sacrifice prospects to further reduce that payroll. But I don't judge the "trade" in terms of the return NH received because all he really wanted from Toronto was for them to pay Liriano.
Bobster I agree with everything you've said there. For me the absolute worst part about the Liriano trade is the unequivocal reveal that the Nutting ownership puts money above winning. I can no longer live in blissful denial or have the ignorant optimism that I'd had before.
This has been his MO the entire time. He can try to sell the fact they are trying to put a team that is capable of winning a title, but in all reality, its not that close based on the crap signed off the bone pile.
Liriano was trash this year and deserved to be moved. NH is trying to sell Hutchinson as a quality arm, but people who know baseball aren't buying nor should they. I wish he would admit it was a salary dump because it was.
Now, if financial flexibility is something ownership wants, but they want to put together a team that can win it, that money has to be reinvested. If somehow (not faithful on this one), they manage to get a difference maker with that saved money, then the deal doesn't look as bad. If they continue to grab bone pile talents, then they lose all credibility on the things they are selling.
the thing about reinvesting the money is that it needs to be used to bring somebody better than what Liriano was in 2014 and 2015. Overall, the Bucs got more than their money's worth from him. The Bucs decided that he could not bounceback with them so they dealt him at his lowest value.
In his last 2 starts with the Bucs he gave up 4 homers and 11 runs in 8.1 innings. His last start with Bucs was on July 31.
I wonder when the Bucs made the decision to deal him. He struck out 12 or 13 Brewers with no walks a couple weeks before he was traded. I remember at the time thinking he was getting back to where he was previously.
Horrible trade he was worthless to us but he certainly was worth a lot to other clubs and NH should have know that, that's his job. His stock has went down what other team would want this guy in their FO.
Yes, from a "trade" perspective it was horrible. But this was not a trade in the sense that NH thought he was getting a fair return. It was strictly a salary dump. Toronto was willing to pay the salary of an inconsistent and struggling Liriano in exchange for McGuire and Ramirez. For the Pirates, the loss of Liriano was addition by subtraction and the prospects were surrendered so that Toronto paid Liriano. Hutchison was unwanted by Toronto and appears to have been the throw in so that NH could deny it was strictly a salary dump, although he admitted that was "part of the motivation." (I'm guessing that part was about 98% of the motivation.) I hate the deal from the perspective that a team with one of MLB's lowest payrolls should not sacrifice prospects to further reduce that payroll. But I don't judge the "trade" in terms of the return NH received because all he really wanted from Toronto was for them to pay Liriano.
Bobster I agree with everything you've said there. For me the absolute worst part about the Liriano trade is the unequivocal reveal that the Nutting ownership puts money above winning. I can no longer live in blissful denial or have the ignorant optimism that I'd had before.
This has been his MO the entire time. He can try to sell the fact they are trying to put a team that is capable of winning a title, but in all reality, its not that close based on the crap signed off the bone pile.
Liriano was trash this year and deserved to be moved. NH is trying to sell Hutchinson as a quality arm, but people who know baseball aren't buying nor should they. I wish he would admit it was a salary dump because it was.
Now, if financial flexibility is something ownership wants, but they want to put together a team that can win it, that money has to be reinvested. If somehow (not faithful on this one), they manage to get a difference maker with that saved money, then the deal doesn't look as bad. If they continue to grab bone pile talents, then they lose all credibility on the things they are selling.
the thing about reinvesting the money is that it needs to be used to bring somebody better than what Liriano was in 2014 and 2015. Overall, the Bucs got more than their money's worth from him. The Bucs decided that he could not bounceback with them so they dealt him at his lowest value.
In his last 2 starts with the Bucs he gave up 4 homers and 11 runs in 8.1 innings. His last start with Bucs was on July 31.
I wonder when the Bucs made the decision to deal him. He struck out 12 or 13 Brewers with no walks a couple weeks before he was traded. I remember at the time thinking he was getting back to where he was previously.
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rucker59@gmail.com
About that Liriano trade...
5276626A6F030 wrote: There's an interesting article on the dkpittsburghsports website today written by Dejan Kovacevic concerning the Pirates trade of Francisco Liriano to the Blue Jays. It's a pay site so for those of you without a subscription I will try to summarize. http://dkpittsburghsports.com/2016/09/3 ... tes-walls/
Essentially Dejan says that there have been serious concerns about that deal expressed by individuals both within the Pirate organization (specifically scouts, instructors, coaches, and players) and from outside the organization including at least one scout and an Assistant GM from an American League team. That Assistant GM apparently told Dejan that his team and some "other teams" contacted Commissioner Bob Manfred's office about the deal.
Interesting stuff especially about the teams who felt the deal was such that it might require the Commissioner's involvement.
WOW! Well, this confirms what I and a few others said at the trade - this wasn't just a bad deal for the Pirates, it is a potentially very dangerous move for MLB. I posted at the time that "small mkt" teams can use this same process to move "bad" contracts at any time - something that has the potential to seriously impact the competitive balance in baseball.
The fact the Pirates would utilize this method to dump salary has to alarm every Pirate fan. Indeed, their #1 goal has been flushed out.
This helps shed light on last offseason for example - how else to explain the unconscionable offseason moves last winter FOR A 98 WIN TEAM! Record attendance, growing enthusiasm, a team which was maybe one good-size contact away from being the best in baseball - and they unloaded payroll without corresponding moves to replace their loses on the team, much less add that "one last piece". Fact (I have no doubt) - they gambled they could maintain a competing team while increasing profits to a sick degree.
I hope MLB rips this ownership to shreds. Mr Nutting has been exposed.
Essentially Dejan says that there have been serious concerns about that deal expressed by individuals both within the Pirate organization (specifically scouts, instructors, coaches, and players) and from outside the organization including at least one scout and an Assistant GM from an American League team. That Assistant GM apparently told Dejan that his team and some "other teams" contacted Commissioner Bob Manfred's office about the deal.
Interesting stuff especially about the teams who felt the deal was such that it might require the Commissioner's involvement.
WOW! Well, this confirms what I and a few others said at the trade - this wasn't just a bad deal for the Pirates, it is a potentially very dangerous move for MLB. I posted at the time that "small mkt" teams can use this same process to move "bad" contracts at any time - something that has the potential to seriously impact the competitive balance in baseball.
The fact the Pirates would utilize this method to dump salary has to alarm every Pirate fan. Indeed, their #1 goal has been flushed out.
This helps shed light on last offseason for example - how else to explain the unconscionable offseason moves last winter FOR A 98 WIN TEAM! Record attendance, growing enthusiasm, a team which was maybe one good-size contact away from being the best in baseball - and they unloaded payroll without corresponding moves to replace their loses on the team, much less add that "one last piece". Fact (I have no doubt) - they gambled they could maintain a competing team while increasing profits to a sick degree.
I hope MLB rips this ownership to shreds. Mr Nutting has been exposed.
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rucker59@gmail.com
About that Liriano trade...
725F52434455420201300 wrote: Man, sure looks down right bad with Francisco in the playoffs with Jays, and Bucs on outside...This deal has to be one of the worst from the desk of Neal Huntington... >:(
Horrible trade he was worthless to us but he certainly was worth a lot to other clubs and NH should have know that, that's his job. His stock has went down what other team would want this guy in their FO.
Yes, from a "trade" perspective it was horrible. But this was not a trade in the sense that NH thought he was getting a fair return. It was strictly a salary dump. Toronto was willing to pay the salary of an inconsistent and struggling Liriano in exchange for McGuire and Ramirez. For the Pirates, the loss of Liriano was addition by subtraction and the prospects were surrendered so that Toronto paid Liriano. Hutchison was unwanted by Toronto and appears to have been the throw in so that NH could deny it was strictly a salary dump, although he admitted that was "part of the motivation." (I'm guessing that part was about 98% of the motivation.) I hate the deal from the perspective that a team with one of MLB's lowest payrolls should not sacrifice prospects to further reduce that payroll. But I don't judge the "trade" in terms of the return NH received because all he really wanted from Toronto was for them to pay Liriano.
Actually, the "deal" is even worse than you point out (and it's really bad in your analysis!) - the Jays not only got two good prospects for taking on salary, even worse it turns out they got a decent pitcher for a playoff run on the cheap. In this market and with the free agency looking so thin this year, the fact that we gave away starting pitching (with a relatively cheap contract) for NOTHING, AND we gave away two good prospects to give that pitching away for nothing, is beyond imagination.
The trade of the Shark is the same deal - take a team in the middle of a winnable playoff race and trade the proven closer....RIGHT! Only in the fairytale land of Pirates' baseball would that ever "make sense". (Here's a novel idea for all of the folks that like Rivero - you think the Nats would have traded Rivero for the two prospects given away to the Jays?! In a heartbeat. Malacon was a salary dump every bit as much as Liriano).
Pirate fans have a right to be outraged and I believe it disqualifies Mr Nutting from owning an MLB franchise as he literally risks undermining the entire game.
This was a world series contender - they have turned it into a sub-.500 team. Any other owner and this team is trying to legitimately win a WS, not luck into it while milking the cash cow.
Horrible trade he was worthless to us but he certainly was worth a lot to other clubs and NH should have know that, that's his job. His stock has went down what other team would want this guy in their FO.
Yes, from a "trade" perspective it was horrible. But this was not a trade in the sense that NH thought he was getting a fair return. It was strictly a salary dump. Toronto was willing to pay the salary of an inconsistent and struggling Liriano in exchange for McGuire and Ramirez. For the Pirates, the loss of Liriano was addition by subtraction and the prospects were surrendered so that Toronto paid Liriano. Hutchison was unwanted by Toronto and appears to have been the throw in so that NH could deny it was strictly a salary dump, although he admitted that was "part of the motivation." (I'm guessing that part was about 98% of the motivation.) I hate the deal from the perspective that a team with one of MLB's lowest payrolls should not sacrifice prospects to further reduce that payroll. But I don't judge the "trade" in terms of the return NH received because all he really wanted from Toronto was for them to pay Liriano.
Actually, the "deal" is even worse than you point out (and it's really bad in your analysis!) - the Jays not only got two good prospects for taking on salary, even worse it turns out they got a decent pitcher for a playoff run on the cheap. In this market and with the free agency looking so thin this year, the fact that we gave away starting pitching (with a relatively cheap contract) for NOTHING, AND we gave away two good prospects to give that pitching away for nothing, is beyond imagination.
The trade of the Shark is the same deal - take a team in the middle of a winnable playoff race and trade the proven closer....RIGHT! Only in the fairytale land of Pirates' baseball would that ever "make sense". (Here's a novel idea for all of the folks that like Rivero - you think the Nats would have traded Rivero for the two prospects given away to the Jays?! In a heartbeat. Malacon was a salary dump every bit as much as Liriano).
Pirate fans have a right to be outraged and I believe it disqualifies Mr Nutting from owning an MLB franchise as he literally risks undermining the entire game.
This was a world series contender - they have turned it into a sub-.500 team. Any other owner and this team is trying to legitimately win a WS, not luck into it while milking the cash cow.
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Bobster21
About that Liriano trade...
The question that needs to be put to the FO is what they want to have the "financial flexibility" to do. They have tossed this term around for years. Entering 2016, the Cubs added Fowler, Zobrist, Heyward and Lackey and added Chapman about 2/3rds into the season for a total financial commitment of roughly 284 million. Such spending is not even remotely possible for the Pirates. The key signings for the Pirates were Jaso, Freese, Joyce, Nicasio and Feliz for a total of about 19 million. Freese was subsequently extended another 16.5 mil over 2 years, so the financial commitment for all those players now totals about 35 million.
For the remainder of this year and next, Liriano was due 18 million and Hutchison roughly 1 million. So the Bucs saved about 17 million. This does not give them the flexibility to do much more than add to the bench and bullpen. In fact, that money was spent 3 weeks later to extend Freese. There is nothing to suggest they can compete with the Cubs for the division. So regardless of what the FO says about building a champion, it's all about doing the best they can with one of MLB's smallest payrolls. I'm not saying they need to spend like the richest teams. If they don't have the money, they don't have the money. But for 3 years they whetted our appetites for winning while telling us they wanted to win a WS. But now we see that they are seriously hampered financially and, realistically, a WC spot is the best that can be hoped for.
For the remainder of this year and next, Liriano was due 18 million and Hutchison roughly 1 million. So the Bucs saved about 17 million. This does not give them the flexibility to do much more than add to the bench and bullpen. In fact, that money was spent 3 weeks later to extend Freese. There is nothing to suggest they can compete with the Cubs for the division. So regardless of what the FO says about building a champion, it's all about doing the best they can with one of MLB's smallest payrolls. I'm not saying they need to spend like the richest teams. If they don't have the money, they don't have the money. But for 3 years they whetted our appetites for winning while telling us they wanted to win a WS. But now we see that they are seriously hampered financially and, realistically, a WC spot is the best that can be hoped for.
About that Liriano trade...
577A77666170672724150 wrote: The question that needs to be put to the FO is what they want to have the "financial flexibility" to do. They have tossed this term around for years. Entering 2016, the Cubs added Fowler, Zobrist, Heyward and Lackey and added Chapman about 2/3rds into the season for a total financial commitment of roughly 284 million. Such spending is not even remotely possible for the Pirates. The key signings for the Pirates were Jaso, Freese, Joyce, Nicasio and Feliz for a total of about 19 million. Freese was subsequently extended another 16.5 mil over 2 years, so the financial commitment for all those players now totals about 35 million.
For the remainder of this year and next, Liriano was due 18 million and Hutchison roughly 1 million. So the Bucs saved about 17 million. This does not give them the flexibility to do much more than add to the bench and bullpen. In fact, that money was spent 3 weeks later to extend Freese. There is nothing to suggest they can compete with the Cubs for the division. So regardless of what the FO says about building a champion, it's all about doing the best they can with one of MLB's smallest payrolls. I'm not saying they need to spend like the richest teams. If they don't have the money, they don't have the money. But for 3 years they whetted our appetites for winning while telling us they wanted to win a WS. But now we see that they are seriously hampered financially and, realistically, a WC spot is the best that can be hoped for.
This is a great post! Though, it is important to say that the Pirates can win a World Series as the Wild Card winner. The two are clearly not mutually exclusive. Plus, you wrote that they have been telling us about that being the goal. Just because the payroll has to be low, why can't that be the goal?
I don't think the Pirates have to give us a number. I think they already have. I think about $110 is probably the high end for now. You are right, it is then the front office's job to put together a winner for that number. In that regard, I think NH has done an unbelievable job.
For the remainder of this year and next, Liriano was due 18 million and Hutchison roughly 1 million. So the Bucs saved about 17 million. This does not give them the flexibility to do much more than add to the bench and bullpen. In fact, that money was spent 3 weeks later to extend Freese. There is nothing to suggest they can compete with the Cubs for the division. So regardless of what the FO says about building a champion, it's all about doing the best they can with one of MLB's smallest payrolls. I'm not saying they need to spend like the richest teams. If they don't have the money, they don't have the money. But for 3 years they whetted our appetites for winning while telling us they wanted to win a WS. But now we see that they are seriously hampered financially and, realistically, a WC spot is the best that can be hoped for.
This is a great post! Though, it is important to say that the Pirates can win a World Series as the Wild Card winner. The two are clearly not mutually exclusive. Plus, you wrote that they have been telling us about that being the goal. Just because the payroll has to be low, why can't that be the goal?
I don't think the Pirates have to give us a number. I think they already have. I think about $110 is probably the high end for now. You are right, it is then the front office's job to put together a winner for that number. In that regard, I think NH has done an unbelievable job.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
About that Liriano trade...
6F7256545A3F0 wrote: In that regard, I think NH has done an unbelievable job.
Until they whiffed on SP this past offseason at least.
Until they whiffed on SP this past offseason at least.
About that Liriano trade...
With the owner's self-imposed $110M salary cap in place it's tough to be critical of Neal Huntington. Like most other GMs he's done some good things and some bad things, but generally he's been a pretty good GM.
About that Liriano trade...
13212D2D390B28212C292621400 wrote: In that regard, I think NH has done an unbelievable job.
Until they whiffed on SP this past offseason at least.
There is no arguing the epic fail that it turned out to be. However, if they didn't have any money to spend, what were they supposed to do? Who were they supposed to not sign in lieu of a pitcher? If you don't sign Freese and Rodriguez, you'd have been able to get someone like Latos. They signed Liriano the year before to be that guy.
The only thing I think they could have done last offseason given their financial constraints is trade one of their outfielders and let Joyce/Rodriguez play in the OF. They probably could have gotten that big time SP and not downgraded too much. In their defense, I'll bet they do that this year since Bell is able to now slot into the OF until Meadows gets there.
Until they whiffed on SP this past offseason at least.
There is no arguing the epic fail that it turned out to be. However, if they didn't have any money to spend, what were they supposed to do? Who were they supposed to not sign in lieu of a pitcher? If you don't sign Freese and Rodriguez, you'd have been able to get someone like Latos. They signed Liriano the year before to be that guy.
The only thing I think they could have done last offseason given their financial constraints is trade one of their outfielders and let Joyce/Rodriguez play in the OF. They probably could have gotten that big time SP and not downgraded too much. In their defense, I'll bet they do that this year since Bell is able to now slot into the OF until Meadows gets there.