5D707D6C6B7A6D2D2E1F0 wrote: Hurdle isn't a great game manager and he made some mistakes yesterday. But his team let him down yesterday. They gave out 11 walk/HBP, multiple errors, catching mistakes, base running gaffes. What do you want him to say? It's the 3 game of the season. He's not going to throw his players under the bus.
Secondly, poor fundamental and bad baseball is not a Pirates issue. It's an MLB issue. More realistically, it's a world wide baseball issue. Kids, especially when they get closer to high school, don't actually play games any more. They do showcases. The result is that you have a kid that can throw 90mph doesn't doesn't ever pitch to a person. Or kids that can hit the cover off the ball but haven't spent years running from first to third on a ball hit to right field. I know must of us grew up doing this stuff every day in our teenage years of baseball so it seems common sense. Kids aren't doing that any more. When they get to pro ball, they simply don't know baseball because they haven't played baseball. They pitched 25 pitches and batted 3 times regardless of situation because the scouts came all this way to see this kid. It isn't just the Pirates who suck at fundamentals. Watch other MLB games.
But they still play high school and college baseball and all that entails. I suspect the star players (the ones so good they are attracting scouts) are coddled by their coaches and parents. Coaches probably praise their abilities without pointing out flaws in their game that should be corrected. Because if mom or dad see the coach correcting their son or he goes home complaining, they may take him out of that school and the coach loses his best player.
Fundamentals just aren't that difficult. Most of these players have played professionally for 5 or 6 years before getting to the majors.
supposedly there is a Pirate way to play the game and it is taught throughout the system.
Or is that just B.S.?
Clint explains why Pirates lost
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Clint explains why Pirates lost
Some of the stuff is well beyond the coaches. There's nothing you can do to coach Josh Bell into catching an infield fly ball or starting a 3-6-3 DP as well as a high school kid. If these guys don't want to rep it 10,000 times, what exactly can you do as a head coach of mid-20 year olds?
Perhaps they are repping it and they just aren't athletic enough, or perhaps smart enough, to play this game defensively at the ML level?
Maybe guys who used to not be very good (like Corey Dickerson) repped it 10,000 times and learned to track fly balls better, use sound techniques, and still play solid defense within his physical limitations (candy-cane arm)?
Or maybe other? The large number of physical mistakes being made these first few games at the ML level, I don't attribute to coaching.
Perhaps they are repping it and they just aren't athletic enough, or perhaps smart enough, to play this game defensively at the ML level?
Maybe guys who used to not be very good (like Corey Dickerson) repped it 10,000 times and learned to track fly balls better, use sound techniques, and still play solid defense within his physical limitations (candy-cane arm)?
Or maybe other? The large number of physical mistakes being made these first few games at the ML level, I don't attribute to coaching.
Clint explains why Pirates lost
I honestly don't believe Hurdle is the problem. Modern (post advanced stats) baseball is a different creature from previous eras.
Sure, there are some old school types who have a hand in the decision making process of the team (Maddon, Francona), but many teams now treat that spot as an extension of the GM. Even the Yankees.
So if you want to see a significant improvement in the performance of the team, I would rank it
1)Ownership
2) Front Office
3) Hurdle (way in third)
Could you upgrade by finding someone to replace Hurdle? Possibly, although I am doubtful. I think this team's problems are deeper than that.
Sure, there are some old school types who have a hand in the decision making process of the team (Maddon, Francona), but many teams now treat that spot as an extension of the GM. Even the Yankees.
So if you want to see a significant improvement in the performance of the team, I would rank it
1)Ownership
2) Front Office
3) Hurdle (way in third)
Could you upgrade by finding someone to replace Hurdle? Possibly, although I am doubtful. I think this team's problems are deeper than that.
Clint explains why Pirates lost
4C616C7D7A6B7C3C3F0E0 wrote: Hurdle isn't a great game manager and he made some mistakes yesterday. But his team let him down yesterday. They gave out 11 walk/HBP, multiple errors, catching mistakes, base running gaffes. What do you want him to say? It's the 3 game of the season. He's not going to throw his players under the bus.
Secondly, poor fundamental and bad baseball is not a Pirates issue. It's an MLB issue. More realistically, it's a world wide baseball issue. Kids, especially when they get closer to high school, don't actually play games any more. They do showcases. The result is that you have a kid that can throw 90mph doesn't doesn't ever pitch to a person. Or kids that can hit the cover off the ball but haven't spent years running from first to third on a ball hit to right field. I know must of us grew up doing this stuff every day in our teenage years of baseball so it seems common sense. Kids aren't doing that any more. When they get to pro ball, they simply don't know baseball because they haven't played baseball. They pitched 25 pitches and batted 3 times regardless of situation because the scouts came all this way to see this kid. It isn't just the Pirates who suck at fundamentals. Watch other MLB games.
But they still play high school and college baseball and all that entails. I suspect the star players (the ones so good they are attracting scouts) are coddled by their coaches and parents. Coaches probably praise their abilities without pointing out flaws in their game that should be corrected. Because if mom or dad see the coach correcting their son or he goes home complaining, they may take him out of that school and the coach loses his best player.
My kids aren't old enough for this and I don't know any elite HS kids in baseball, personally. However, I got the chance to hang out with NH and my buddy (who is a season ticket holder) after a season ticket holder Q&A. We were talking with him about the terrible fundamentals of the Pirates (which he completely acknowledged and agreed with). I said something about the lack of plate awareness. I mentioned that when I watch baseball with my 10 year old, I teach him (among many things) about how a pitcher will throw breaking balls away so that they can come back with an inside fastball. NH said that that is extremely advanced stuff for most of the kids that are now entering they system. No doubt, that sort of baseball knowledge seems like common sense to all of us on this board.
I didn't feel as if he was speaking as an apologist for the Pirates poor fundamentals. Rather, explaining the reality of the sport. Truth be known, I found him to be a really thoughtful, articulate, and sharp baseball mind. He is quite mindful of public perception for the Pirates and for himself.
To the point...from what I understand in that conversation, there is a really huge growing moment towards the showcase circuit in lieu of HS, legion, or travel baseball. And apparently, this style of play is happening for younger kids too. It's all about projectability and intangibles. They don't play games. A pitcher will throw 25 pitches. It doesn't matter how many outs he gets or who bats. They want to see velocity and stuff (likely among other things). Same sort of craziness for hitters. A certain number of hitters will bat every inning. The point is getting kids seen. Not playing baseball. They are drafting and signing kids who haven't played much baseball. They have just showcased their skills. And it's even worse in Latin America.
Again, I didn't hear this as excuses. Rather, an explanation about why baseball is trending like this. He actually admitted that he and the other scouts/GM of baseball are to blame for approaching talent like this. Poor play on the field is a result of scouting talent and not baseball players. It totally means that players like Trevor Williams get overlooked and sometimes never given a chance. He mentioned Trevor by name.
Secondly, poor fundamental and bad baseball is not a Pirates issue. It's an MLB issue. More realistically, it's a world wide baseball issue. Kids, especially when they get closer to high school, don't actually play games any more. They do showcases. The result is that you have a kid that can throw 90mph doesn't doesn't ever pitch to a person. Or kids that can hit the cover off the ball but haven't spent years running from first to third on a ball hit to right field. I know must of us grew up doing this stuff every day in our teenage years of baseball so it seems common sense. Kids aren't doing that any more. When they get to pro ball, they simply don't know baseball because they haven't played baseball. They pitched 25 pitches and batted 3 times regardless of situation because the scouts came all this way to see this kid. It isn't just the Pirates who suck at fundamentals. Watch other MLB games.
But they still play high school and college baseball and all that entails. I suspect the star players (the ones so good they are attracting scouts) are coddled by their coaches and parents. Coaches probably praise their abilities without pointing out flaws in their game that should be corrected. Because if mom or dad see the coach correcting their son or he goes home complaining, they may take him out of that school and the coach loses his best player.
My kids aren't old enough for this and I don't know any elite HS kids in baseball, personally. However, I got the chance to hang out with NH and my buddy (who is a season ticket holder) after a season ticket holder Q&A. We were talking with him about the terrible fundamentals of the Pirates (which he completely acknowledged and agreed with). I said something about the lack of plate awareness. I mentioned that when I watch baseball with my 10 year old, I teach him (among many things) about how a pitcher will throw breaking balls away so that they can come back with an inside fastball. NH said that that is extremely advanced stuff for most of the kids that are now entering they system. No doubt, that sort of baseball knowledge seems like common sense to all of us on this board.
I didn't feel as if he was speaking as an apologist for the Pirates poor fundamentals. Rather, explaining the reality of the sport. Truth be known, I found him to be a really thoughtful, articulate, and sharp baseball mind. He is quite mindful of public perception for the Pirates and for himself.
To the point...from what I understand in that conversation, there is a really huge growing moment towards the showcase circuit in lieu of HS, legion, or travel baseball. And apparently, this style of play is happening for younger kids too. It's all about projectability and intangibles. They don't play games. A pitcher will throw 25 pitches. It doesn't matter how many outs he gets or who bats. They want to see velocity and stuff (likely among other things). Same sort of craziness for hitters. A certain number of hitters will bat every inning. The point is getting kids seen. Not playing baseball. They are drafting and signing kids who haven't played much baseball. They have just showcased their skills. And it's even worse in Latin America.
Again, I didn't hear this as excuses. Rather, an explanation about why baseball is trending like this. He actually admitted that he and the other scouts/GM of baseball are to blame for approaching talent like this. Poor play on the field is a result of scouting talent and not baseball players. It totally means that players like Trevor Williams get overlooked and sometimes never given a chance. He mentioned Trevor by name.
Clint explains why Pirates lost
I watch quite a bit of amateur baseball. They play games. Lots and lots of games. They play more games now than they ever have. Travel baseball is expensive, time consuming, and exhausting due to the number of GAMES. There are so many games that kids are unable to play multiple sports easily.
Maybe they do it differently in the DR.
Who are the players today that played in a showcase circuit in lieu of legion, AAU, travel, college?
Maybe they do it differently in the DR.
Who are the players today that played in a showcase circuit in lieu of legion, AAU, travel, college?
Clint explains why Pirates lost
6B7652505E3B0 wrote: Hurdle isn't a great game manager and he made some mistakes yesterday. But his team let him down yesterday. They gave out 11 walk/HBP, multiple errors, catching mistakes, base running gaffes. What do you want him to say? It's the 3 game of the season. He's not going to throw his players under the bus.
Secondly, poor fundamental and bad baseball is not a Pirates issue. It's an MLB issue. More realistically, it's a world wide baseball issue. Kids, especially when they get closer to high school, don't actually play games any more. They do showcases. The result is that you have a kid that can throw 90mph doesn't doesn't ever pitch to a person. Or kids that can hit the cover off the ball but haven't spent years running from first to third on a ball hit to right field. I know must of us grew up doing this stuff every day in our teenage years of baseball so it seems common sense. Kids aren't doing that any more. When they get to pro ball, they simply don't know baseball because they haven't played baseball. They pitched 25 pitches and batted 3 times regardless of situation because the scouts came all this way to see this kid. It isn't just the Pirates who suck at fundamentals. Watch other MLB games.
But they still play high school and college baseball and all that entails. I suspect the star players (the ones so good they are attracting scouts) are coddled by their coaches and parents. Coaches probably praise their abilities without pointing out flaws in their game that should be corrected. Because if mom or dad see the coach correcting their son or he goes home complaining, they may take him out of that school and the coach loses his best player.
My kids aren't old enough for this and I don't know any elite HS kids in baseball, personally. However, I got the chance to hang out with NH and my buddy (who is a season ticket holder) after a season ticket holder Q&A. We were talking with him about the terrible fundamentals of the Pirates (which he completely acknowledged and agreed with). I said something about the lack of plate awareness. I mentioned that when I watch baseball with my 10 year old, I teach him (among many things) about how a pitcher will throw breaking balls away so that they can come back with an inside fastball. NH said that that is extremely advanced stuff for most of the kids that are now entering they system. No doubt, that sort of baseball knowledge seems like common sense to all of us on this board.
I didn't feel as if he was speaking as an apologist for the Pirates poor fundamentals. Rather, explaining the reality of the sport. Truth be known, I found him to be a really thoughtful, articulate, and sharp baseball mind. He is quite mindful of public perception for the Pirates and for himself.
To the point...from what I understand in that conversation, there is a really huge growing moment towards the showcase circuit in lieu of HS, legion, or travel baseball. And apparently, this style of play is happening for younger kids too. It's all about projectability and intangibles. They don't play games. A pitcher will throw 25 pitches. It doesn't matter how many outs he gets or who bats. They want to see velocity and stuff (likely among other things). Same sort of craziness for hitters. A certain number of hitters will bat every inning. The point is getting kids seen. Not playing baseball. They are drafting and signing kids who haven't played much baseball. They have just showcased their skills. And it's even worse in Latin America.
Again, I didn't hear this as excuses. Rather, an explanation about why baseball is trending like this. He actually admitted that he and the other scouts/GM of baseball are to blame for approaching talent like this. Poor play on the field is a result of scouting talent and not baseball players. It totally means that players like Trevor Williams get overlooked and sometimes never given a chance. He mentioned Trevor by name.
My understanding is that show cases are important as it is a place that scouts can go and see lots of players who think they are prospects. However, outside the showcases those kids are playing games.
look at Travis Swaggerty, he played nearly 60 games each year in college (not counting spring training type games) and he played in college summer leagues. I think every college player drafted would have played a similar amount of games.
Then you throw in most will spend time in the minors. Kevin Newman played 3 years of college ball and has appeared in 394 in minors and 31 in majors prior to this season.
Secondly, poor fundamental and bad baseball is not a Pirates issue. It's an MLB issue. More realistically, it's a world wide baseball issue. Kids, especially when they get closer to high school, don't actually play games any more. They do showcases. The result is that you have a kid that can throw 90mph doesn't doesn't ever pitch to a person. Or kids that can hit the cover off the ball but haven't spent years running from first to third on a ball hit to right field. I know must of us grew up doing this stuff every day in our teenage years of baseball so it seems common sense. Kids aren't doing that any more. When they get to pro ball, they simply don't know baseball because they haven't played baseball. They pitched 25 pitches and batted 3 times regardless of situation because the scouts came all this way to see this kid. It isn't just the Pirates who suck at fundamentals. Watch other MLB games.
But they still play high school and college baseball and all that entails. I suspect the star players (the ones so good they are attracting scouts) are coddled by their coaches and parents. Coaches probably praise their abilities without pointing out flaws in their game that should be corrected. Because if mom or dad see the coach correcting their son or he goes home complaining, they may take him out of that school and the coach loses his best player.
My kids aren't old enough for this and I don't know any elite HS kids in baseball, personally. However, I got the chance to hang out with NH and my buddy (who is a season ticket holder) after a season ticket holder Q&A. We were talking with him about the terrible fundamentals of the Pirates (which he completely acknowledged and agreed with). I said something about the lack of plate awareness. I mentioned that when I watch baseball with my 10 year old, I teach him (among many things) about how a pitcher will throw breaking balls away so that they can come back with an inside fastball. NH said that that is extremely advanced stuff for most of the kids that are now entering they system. No doubt, that sort of baseball knowledge seems like common sense to all of us on this board.
I didn't feel as if he was speaking as an apologist for the Pirates poor fundamentals. Rather, explaining the reality of the sport. Truth be known, I found him to be a really thoughtful, articulate, and sharp baseball mind. He is quite mindful of public perception for the Pirates and for himself.
To the point...from what I understand in that conversation, there is a really huge growing moment towards the showcase circuit in lieu of HS, legion, or travel baseball. And apparently, this style of play is happening for younger kids too. It's all about projectability and intangibles. They don't play games. A pitcher will throw 25 pitches. It doesn't matter how many outs he gets or who bats. They want to see velocity and stuff (likely among other things). Same sort of craziness for hitters. A certain number of hitters will bat every inning. The point is getting kids seen. Not playing baseball. They are drafting and signing kids who haven't played much baseball. They have just showcased their skills. And it's even worse in Latin America.
Again, I didn't hear this as excuses. Rather, an explanation about why baseball is trending like this. He actually admitted that he and the other scouts/GM of baseball are to blame for approaching talent like this. Poor play on the field is a result of scouting talent and not baseball players. It totally means that players like Trevor Williams get overlooked and sometimes never given a chance. He mentioned Trevor by name.
My understanding is that show cases are important as it is a place that scouts can go and see lots of players who think they are prospects. However, outside the showcases those kids are playing games.
look at Travis Swaggerty, he played nearly 60 games each year in college (not counting spring training type games) and he played in college summer leagues. I think every college player drafted would have played a similar amount of games.
Then you throw in most will spend time in the minors. Kevin Newman played 3 years of college ball and has appeared in 394 in minors and 31 in majors prior to this season.
-
skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
Clint explains why Pirates lost
686F79717F682F235A7D777B7376347975771A0 wrote: From PG
““When you’re in the game, you never have it won until you win it. It’s a good ballclub over there. They’re always going to battle,” Hurdle said. “We didn’t play well enough to win today. You honestly self-evaluate, did you do enough things to win the game? Unfortunately, with the free 90s we gave them, too many opportunities late to extend innings, put baserunners on. That’s what cost us the game.”
Let’s see:
You never win till you win.
The other team battles.
We didn’t play well enough.
We have to self evaluate - did we do enough things to win?
Clint demonstrates at least part of the problem. Did we do enough things to win? No Clint. I’m looking at the score right now, it says we lost. We did not do enough things to win. The Rest of your clichés are simply that - clichés. No accountability. No pride. No nothing. It could have Easily been any random game in the Middle of another mind Numbingly purposeless season to listen to Clint. That was actually the home opener with a full house and national TV Watching an embarrassing display put on by a organization maintaining that it’s embarrassingly low payroll is justified.
I left the game early and was able to catch part of the ESPN broadcast. The team should be humiliated, the front organization ashamed.
But Clint just sleep walks through the 1st of 162 post games.
He owed Pirate fans and the fans of baseball an apology with assurance this will not happen again. His attitude may be the The greatest embarrassment of the day.
Couldn't agree more, so tired of Clint's cool cliches, that mean absolutely nothing. NH is the one who gave him a 4 year extension, it's the dumb and dumber show.
““When you’re in the game, you never have it won until you win it. It’s a good ballclub over there. They’re always going to battle,” Hurdle said. “We didn’t play well enough to win today. You honestly self-evaluate, did you do enough things to win the game? Unfortunately, with the free 90s we gave them, too many opportunities late to extend innings, put baserunners on. That’s what cost us the game.”
Let’s see:
You never win till you win.
The other team battles.
We didn’t play well enough.
We have to self evaluate - did we do enough things to win?
Clint demonstrates at least part of the problem. Did we do enough things to win? No Clint. I’m looking at the score right now, it says we lost. We did not do enough things to win. The Rest of your clichés are simply that - clichés. No accountability. No pride. No nothing. It could have Easily been any random game in the Middle of another mind Numbingly purposeless season to listen to Clint. That was actually the home opener with a full house and national TV Watching an embarrassing display put on by a organization maintaining that it’s embarrassingly low payroll is justified.
I left the game early and was able to catch part of the ESPN broadcast. The team should be humiliated, the front organization ashamed.
But Clint just sleep walks through the 1st of 162 post games.
He owed Pirate fans and the fans of baseball an apology with assurance this will not happen again. His attitude may be the The greatest embarrassment of the day.
Couldn't agree more, so tired of Clint's cool cliches, that mean absolutely nothing. NH is the one who gave him a 4 year extension, it's the dumb and dumber show.
-
skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
Clint explains why Pirates lost
313830212F550 wrote: Some of the stuff is well beyond the coaches. There's nothing you can do to coach Josh Bell into catching an infield fly ball or starting a 3-6-3 DP as well as a high school kid. If these guys don't want to rep it 10,000 times, what exactly can you do as a head coach of mid-20 year olds?
Perhaps they are repping it and they just aren't athletic enough, or perhaps smart enough, to play this game defensively at the ML level?
Maybe guys who used to not be very good (like Corey Dickerson) repped it 10,000 times and learned to track fly balls better, use sound techniques, and still play solid defense within his physical limitations (candy-cane arm)?
Or maybe other? The large number of physical mistakes being made these first few games at the ML level, I don't attribute to coaching.
The first thing you do is put the best players on the field that give you the best chance to win. One simple case, Clint brings in a guy who in a critical situation who has no control to pitch to one of the most patient hitter whose walks more than almost any major leaguer with the same number of abs. (Liriano vs. Carpenter) The other is Gonzalez who was apparently was having difficulties in ST. Why would anyone want a guy who obviously is shaky at best starting at SS. If he's this bad all year we have no chance with him in a game. I know very little about him but he was just little league against the Cards.
Perhaps they are repping it and they just aren't athletic enough, or perhaps smart enough, to play this game defensively at the ML level?
Maybe guys who used to not be very good (like Corey Dickerson) repped it 10,000 times and learned to track fly balls better, use sound techniques, and still play solid defense within his physical limitations (candy-cane arm)?
Or maybe other? The large number of physical mistakes being made these first few games at the ML level, I don't attribute to coaching.
The first thing you do is put the best players on the field that give you the best chance to win. One simple case, Clint brings in a guy who in a critical situation who has no control to pitch to one of the most patient hitter whose walks more than almost any major leaguer with the same number of abs. (Liriano vs. Carpenter) The other is Gonzalez who was apparently was having difficulties in ST. Why would anyone want a guy who obviously is shaky at best starting at SS. If he's this bad all year we have no chance with him in a game. I know very little about him but he was just little league against the Cards.
Clint explains why Pirates lost
I especially liked how Clint has picked up the new lingo and says 90s for giving team extra bases.
-
Bobster21
Clint explains why Pirates lost
476160776171020 wrote: I especially liked how Clint has picked up the new lingo and says 90s for giving team extra bases.
He's a real hep cat.
He's a real hep cat.